Keeping acquisition while exiting/entering an entrenchment C6.5 and B27.13

[Hemaelstrom]

I like Perry's ruling because it obviates the need for an erratum to accommodate a situation that I think would be rather rare. Leaving an entrenchment to fire without also leaving the location? There may be a clever reason for doing it that I would never think of in a million years though.

 

[jrv]

I like Perry's ruling because it obviates the need for an erratum to accommodate a situation that I think would be rather rare. Leaving an entrenchment to fire without also leaving the location? There may be a clever reason for doing it that I would never think of in a million years though.

It might happen that the unit possessing the SW would want to move into the entrenchment to gain protection, or one in an entrenchment might behind a wall in one direction might want to advance out. Since a MTR fires at an area (uses Area Target Type) it seems to me that moving one a few feet probably won't cause all that much disruption, but I can't say I've ever fired one.

JR

 

[Justiciar]

Perry answered after the rules as written, but there could be an erratum some day.

No, I get how he ruled in accordance with the nature of the rules. I understand that.

However, I actually think it is an erratum. I don't see that they will issue it down the road, unless its a 3rd edition type. I think were it to be so he would have called it right now in relation to your Q/A submission. But I have been wrong before...so don't follow this horse.

 

[Justiciar]

I like Perry's ruling because it obviates the need for an erratum to accommodate a situation that I think would be rather rare. Leaving an entrenchment to fire without also leaving the location? There may be a clever reason for doing it that I would never think of in a million years though.

I disagree. In full.

You can see situations were you are about to be over come by Inf. what have you so exit the trench to ready yourself for a move to better ground the building to your right, yet maintain the ACQ....and more so if you are the US 60mm in 45 or the Japanese 50mm and all its S/WP or the Brit 51mm and smoke shot in Big D for masking shot or the Russian 82mm and drop a road and then dm.

I get his rule's train logic. You can't top it. I disagree on the "simulation" grounds.

 

[Justiciar]

It might happen that the unit possessing the SW would want to move into the entrenchment to gain protection, or one in an entrenchment might behind a wall in one direction might want to advance out. Since a MTR fires at an area (uses Area Target Type) it seems to me that moving one a few feet probably won't cause all that much disruption, but I can't say I've ever fired one.

JR

I too have never fired one. But what I gather from those that have is that much of accuracy is about how well the base plate is 'married' to the ground it's on. If that is soft, shifty or even too hard then well you suffer...so moving in and out of trenches / foxholes is likely to alter that intimate relationship.

All this said I understand the 'game' aspects on how Perry ruled. As much as I see erratum he did not. But that is his call.

 

[Justiciar]

I said that the first round will reseat the baseplate, the mortar man then gets the bubble up and then drops the next round. Mortars generally rebubble after each fire mission, as the baseplate often moves slightly with each round. During an FPF, the tube pauses after every couple of rounds to get the bubble centered again.

If the mortar is not direct laying, then you're putting out aiming stakes with a compass and hand signals (etc) and this will always introduce error. It's even more problematic if you are using an FO who moves. This will take several rounds to get back on target (as the FO's estimates of his position, his range and azimuth to the target all introduce errors).

Trust me (again, I've put hands on mortars many times) direct lay is super easy. Though, as you noted, this conversation is immaterial - just meant to be enlightening.

One round does not* make a re-seat. It depends on way too much. Read your accounts of the USMC at Chosin, just by way of example.

 

[Justiciar]

Given how quickly one is dropping rounds and that one is observing the impact, I suspect not all that poorly.

Just for the record LT. Let us try it this way....

Your 1x 60 which were once well dialed in on direct lay...you just ordered moved 120ft from their original position [reasons unknown] (still within the same hex for ASL), and you have no idea about the new ground that they are on, etc, or their ammo state, etc.....and you have two platoons of infantry which will maneuver directly and immediately behind the first rounds dropped (b/c the situation DEMANDS an immediate assault..as you see it, as your CO ordered you [aside from the repositioning of the mortar] and as the BN CO is railing in the Co CO to do) and you as the LT are gonna call it that way...is that right LT?

 

[jrv]

Just for the record LT. Let us try it this way....

Your 1x 60 which were once well dialed in on direct lay...you just ordered moved 120ft from their original position [reasons unknown] (still within the same hex for ASL), and you have no idea about the new ground that they are on, etc, or their ammo state, etc.....and you have two platoons of infantry which will maneuver directly and immediately behind the first rounds dropped (b/c the situation DEMANDS an immediate assault..as you see it, as your CO ordered you [aside from the repositioning of the mortar] and as the BN CO is railing in the Co CO to do) and you as the LT are gonna call it that way...is that right LT?

If they are moving immediately, I take it you mean the same MPh that you will move the MTR. That is not possible. You cannot fire the MTR until the next enemy MPh [A4.41]. You have plenty of time to check that everything is good. Phases and phases, in fact.

JR

 

[Justiciar]

If they are moving immediately, I take it you mean the same MPh that you will move the MTR. That is not possible. You cannot fire the MTR until the next enemy MPh [A4.41]. You have plenty of time to check that everything is good. Phases and phases, in fact.

JR

No, I meant....Prep Fire the 60 in the Trench...advance out (1 MF) and then...D Fire.. just in theory moved approx. 120ft (or maybe it was only 5ft) and kept ACQ.

No dice, either way...reasons up stream.

Phases are phases in ASL we all know ASL time is abstract...

I am setting the LT a different exam.

He gets the sand box exam..and I have set same to many Marines in days of yore...and answered many of theirs in spades. Sorry for the push back, JRV.

I await the TDG I just set for the LT... advance on the first round(s) out the tube as if was in the old location (we never set the parameters that he had the 2x platoons very close to the enemy / objective = the ACQ)...or 200 meters away...but the crux is measured on the extreme not the safety line) and dialed in to a T...but if higher on the hook said go he might...or maybe not depending on many factors.

As I said before, I get the ASL answer, matches the C rule...I don't see / like the RL answer.

Andy

 

[hongkongwargamer]

This means a (small 1/2") mortar can shoot from behind a wall & get ACQ, skulk under a FH and disappear from sight, advance out to take wall advantage again, shoot at the ACQ hex in the opponent's MPh again!

 

[Brian W]

Sweet!

 

[zgrose]

This means a (small 1/2") mortar can shoot from behind a wall & get ACQ, skulk under a FH and disappear from sight, advance out to take wall advantage again, shoot at the ACQ hex in the opponent's MPh again!

True, but their first hex of movement usually carries them OUT of the acquired hex so you probably won't get anything for it.

 

[zgrose]

As I said before, I get the ASL answer, matches the C rule...I don't see / like the RL answer.

But you do like keeping Acq when you push a Gun from one side of a building to the other? This particular issue seems to pale in comparison wrt reality arguments.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

True, but their first hex of movement usually carries them OUT of the acquired hex so you probably won't get anything for it.

Even when you have a FH right behind a wall? You will just be popping in and out of the thing like a mole. No location chsnge.

 

[zgrose]

Even when you have a FH right behind a wall? You will just be popping in and out of the thing like a mole. No location chsnge.

No, I mean the shooting Mortar doesn't usually get the benefit of Acq as Defensive First Fire because he can only be shooting at where he shot last. During the MPh, any hex that he had Acquired he can only shoot at again when there is a moving Unit in it. Often, but not always, anyone in an Acquired hex is probably moving out first.

In the case of a chokehold hex the proposed solution would certainly work but my suggestion is that this isn't as much of a tactical advantage as it might seem on paper.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Very true! However being able to maintain a ACQ counter on the map tends to funnel your oppponent into certain places.

 

[Justiciar]

But you do like keeping Acq when you push a Gun from one side of a building to the other? This particular issue seems to pale in comparison wrt reality arguments.

Push??? you don't push a gun to the other side of the building do you?... you change CA?..I dont' quite follow you here. These are different things. By far. Due to the platforms themselves.

The laying of a gun, non-mortar, is not the same as for a mortar.

Pivoting a ATG, say on its own axis, is not at all like up plate move 100ft and drop plate and drop 3 rounds and call it the same as a pivot for a ATG that is within 4 feet of its axis with the ATG CO tracking the target with his binoculars and the gunner saying yes I see / sense where the target is going I will get on it...where as the mortar crew just changed situational awareness maybe** with 5 ft but maybe* within 100ft....never mind the plate and the ammo and adjusting the bubble, etc.

No dice.

 

[zgrose]

Push??? you don't push a gun to the other side of the building do you?... you change CA?..I dont' quite follow you here. These are different things. By far. Due to the platforms themselves.

Allow me to illustrate the problem: Place an ATG in your front room (or the front room of someone's house you know) and aim at the AFV across the street and take your Acq shot. Now, drive that AFV around the house into the home's backyard.

Clearly one cannot simply rotate the ATG in place and fire at this AFV as the rear wall of the front room, possibly several bedrooms, and the back wall of the house are obstructing your view of this AFV. In order to take this shot, you would have to wheel the ATG into the kitchen, or some other rear-facing room, to fire on the AFV. In the process one is covering far more distance (potentially) than exiting a foxhole/trench, pushing a far heavier weapon, and probably being obstructed by the contents of the building all the while.

In ASL, a single hex building allows one to "simply" pivot the Gun to track the AFV much akin to a Gun in a field pivoting around. The reality is, as illustrated above, is much messier. The doubling of the CA penalty is intended to abstract a lot of this movement and the difficulty of taking an effective shot afterwards. I can't see how one could claim moving a mortar 5 feet out of a foxhole is worthy of losing Acquisition but the tasks in this example don't if the we're trying to bring ASL and reality closer.

So if the rule change was to be: exiting an entrenchment or changing CA > 1 hexspine while in a building* cause a loss of Acquisition, I could get behind that (from a reality POV). But the former without the latter seems to be missing the forest for the trees.


* might be building/woods/rubble/etc, that's not meant to be the rule text, just an example of what would need to be covered.

 

[djohannsen]

One round does not* make a re-seat. It depends on way too much. Read your accounts of the USMC at Chosin, just by way of example.

I'll grant you Chosin. Ground frozen that thoroughly is essentially concrete. Unless the baseplate were set before such a hard freeze, the baseplate would never seat whether you were in an entrenchment or not (it would be like situating the mortar [or a MG tripod, for that matter] in the middle of a paved street). Same story for really stony ground. At the other extreme, you'll be tossing rounds all over the place if the baseplate is in sand, too (whether you've set up in an entrenchment or not). Sanbagging will help in all these situations, but you'll definitely lose accuracy.

I think that the issue here is what is meant by acquisition. The -1 or -2 to hit is pretty weak, to me. If I've got a mortar (or MG with T&E on a tripod) and I've got the range dialed in, almost every round is going to have effect. For example, out on the mortar range, you can sometimes get consecutive hits on an AFV hulk at 800-1500m, and almost all rounds are within the ECR (effective casualty radius) once you're dialed in. The ASL equivalent to this real-world accuracy would be something like once you make a to hit roll, all subsequent shots hit, unless you roll a 12 (and then that shot misses, but you immediately go back to guaranteed hits [unless you roll another box car]). By the Korean war, one had prox fuzes, I believe, which would even enhance the effectiveness more (as some of the success in hitting is that your blast is having effect, and the prox fuze really lessens the effectiveness of hastily dug skirmisher's trenches or hunkering down behind a little mound).

Anyway, with such a weak benefit for acquisition, I've just assumed (again, I'm a complete ASL novice and happy with the game, as is), that you've got eyes on a target and have some pretty good estimate of the range. Really, this is all that you need, with either a mortar or MG (both direct laying - you can [and I have] do indirect fire with tripod mounted MG). Once we had laser range finders for the .50cal in Desert Storm, I expected my guys to have first round effect on target almost every time - you see the target and you know what range to dial in on the sight, nothing much more to it when you have a stable platform (either a tripod with T&E [traversing and elevating mechanism] or a mortar that is direct laying with a seated baseplate, which in moderate conditions [both ground and temperature] means after dropping the first round and then getting bubbles up again on the sight).

Again, I am not taking exception with ASL - I'm a complete novice and am not so full of myself that I would presume to take exception with a game that's had more than 30 years of play by people who are much brighter than I. Also, the complete futility of "in the real world" arguments is beginning to dawn on me. Again, I only endeavored to continue posting on this, not to criticize any element of ASL or of those who play it, but in the hope that those who are interested in such things (presumably not an insignificant number of those who play ASL) might want to hear something of the mechanics of firing a mortar.

Look forward to seeing you again, Andy, and maybe continuing the discussion in person.

Ciao

 

[Philippe D.]

Guys, this is supposed to be a rules discussion. You've moved beyond even the usual realm of reality arguments.