Cave LOS

[Tycho]

Can a unit in the cave in G10 see J5?

G11.5 says "...LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave... to/from an elevation lower than the cave's if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain whose obstacle height along the LOS is > that cave's level
Does R8/I9/I10 create a "plateau" that blocks LOS?

If J5 can be seen presumably it'd get the debris and brush hindrances (PTO terrain is not in effect)?

Tycho

 

[Eagle4ty]

Since the cave is still considered at a greater elevation and since the "slope" does not conform to a "continuous slope" definition, the occupants of the cave should not be hindered in any fashion as it would be able to "see over" all the brush (barring an SSR that redefines brush).

 

[jrv]

You miss a key part of the sentence: "Barring other LOS obstructions, LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave in a non-Depression hext to/from an elevation lower than the cave's if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain (including a Crest Line) whose obstacle height along that LOS is > that cave's level." H9, its entrance hex, does not block LOS to a lower level but H8 and I9 are both "other LOS obstructions" and would block LOS to a lower level.
JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

You miss a key part of the sentence: "Barring other LOS obstructions, LOS may be traced within the CA of a cave in a non-Depression hext to/from an elevation lower than the cave's if its Entrance Hex contains no terrain (including a Crest Line) whose obstacle height along that LOS is > that cave's level." H9, its entrance hex, does not block LOS to a lower level but H8 and I9 are both "other LOS obstructions" and would block LOS to a lower level.
JR

Aren't those just debris hexes (hindrances) and not obstruction terrain?

 

[jrv]

Aren't those just debris hexes (hindrances) and not obstruction terrain?

They are hindrances to LOS to the same level and obstructions to LOS to a lower level. A unit in H9 (the entrance hex) can't see J5 because of H8 also.

JR

 

[jrv]

BTW, as a general rule if the Entrance Hex is the same level as the cave and a Location can't be seen from the Entrance Hex, it probably can't be seen from the cave either (unless the LOS crosses an obstacle from the entrance hex that it doesn't cross from the cave).

The reverse can be not true in a number of ways. There may be non-entrance hex obstacles that "plateau" the LOS from the cave but not from the entrance hex, e.g. cave in 25q7 looking out 25q6 can't see 25p4 because its LOS crosses the higher level of 25p5. In other cases the entrance hex is a hex closer to obstacles, and an extra blind hex might be created for the cave but not the entrance hex.

There are also some odd cases where I don't know what is the right answer. If the entrance hex has a cliff hexside a unit in the entrance hex (e.g. 25DD4 with cave in 25CC5), a unit in 25dd4 can definitely see past the cliff to 25ee4, but I don't know whether a unit in the cave would have a blind hex past the cliff. It could definitely see 25ee4 if the hexside were not a cliff.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

BTW, as a general rule if the Entrance Hex is the same level as the cave and a Location can't be seen from the Entrance Hex, it probably can't be seen from the cave either (unless the LOS crosses an obstacle from the entrance hex that it doesn't cross from the cave).

The reverse can be not true in a number of ways. There may be non-entrance hex obstacles that "plateau" the LOS from the cave but not from the entrance hex, e.g. cave in 25q7 looking out 25q6 can't see 25p4 because its LOS crosses the higher level of 25p5. In other cases the entrance hex is a hex closer to obstacles, and an extra blind hex might be created for the cave but not the entrance hex.

There are also some odd cases where I don't know what is the right answer. If the entrance hex has a cliff hexside a unit in the entrance hex (e.g. 25DD4 with cave in 25CC5), a unit in 25dd4 can definitely see past the cliff to 25ee4, but I don't know whether a unit in the cave would have a blind hex past the cliff. It could definitely see 25ee4 if the hexside were not a cliff.

JR

I see I've got a lot more reading and understanding to do with Caves. Have to re-read that article again! :study:

 

[jrv]

I see I've got a lot more reading and understanding to do with Caves. Have to re-read that article again! :study:

I think the basic idea that works for most if not all situations is to ignore "plateau-ing" of the Entrance Hex (only). Other hexes, even on the same hill and adjacent to the Entrance Hex, may "plateau" the LOS. The rule for continuous slope is that if it's a continuous slope from the entrance hex, it's a continuous slope from the cave. Beyond that I can't think of anything too different, other than LOS has to be through the CA of course.

JR