FrF52 Dying for Danzig

Tuomo

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Played FrF52 Dying for Danzig over the weekend as part of the Rocky Mountain Rumble (congrats to Lynn Swanson for taking home the checkered flag; his name will forever adorn the plaque in Greg Hubbard's basement).

Lynn set up his defending Germans in a way I did not expect - he heavily "manned the ramparts" along the wall next to the Russian reinforcement entry areas (X8-BB9-FF7). This forced me to make a tough choice right off the bat. I admit I didn't even consider just advancing in on my turn 1, as most of my troops would lose concealment and get no WA against the upcoming Point Blank Fire from the Germans on turn 1. In retrospect, I could have maybe tried bringing some guys onboard through the building in EE10, but the original problem remained - I'd be facing concealed Germans on the other side of the wall, with open ground between me and them, and no space behind me to recover from DM.

Instead, I came in on/adjacent to Y10, aided by some luck. A 628 managed to place smoke in Y10 from offboard, and my OT-34 came in along the X10-W10 hexside and flamed the German in X8. This at least bought me some room to move up to the wall there and engage the Germans without huge losses, but without both of those things happening, I'd have been in deep doo-doo.

Moreover, anticipating Bad Things for the reinforcement group, the onboard at-start group felt like they needed to set up around R8 instead of R2, just to provide whatever helping hand they could and to help rally the brokies. The "one big punch" theory may in fact be the best way to attack here, but still - kudos to Lynn for forcing my hand in so many ways before the game even started.

As it played out, even with the reinforcements luckily avoiding Instant Disaster and me trying to push the Russian attack as fast as it would go (since they only have 5 Movement Phases), the losses just piled up too quickly and I conceded on turn 4. I did have a moment's chance at Glory, as the 88L ATG in BB4 malf'd on his Intensive Fire shot at the second Russian tank to swarm him, but an intrepid German 7-0 saved the day by fausting that moving OT-34 at 2 hex range, enabling a bunch of broken Germans to rout back to safety from the AA6 building. If that had gone differently, things mighta taken a more Soviet-friendly turn, but alas.

So looking back with hindsight, I'm realizing how lucky I was to even get that far with the reinforcements, and what a good idea it was for the Germans to "man the ramparts" as they did. Has anyone else seen or tried this strategy, and how did it work out?
 

jrv

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SSR gives the Russian 6-2-8's a smoke exponent of 2 and 5-2-7's an exponent of 1.

Or were you talking about placing smoke from off board?
Placing SMOKE from offboard, for two reasons. The Location has to be ADJACENT and there is no LOS to/from offboard, and units offboard may not perform any actions other than deploying and moving.

JR
 

Tuomo

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This may be why I lost. First move of the game, I do something illegal. Probably bad karma, that.
 

Jazz

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This may be why I lost. First move of the game, I do something illegal. Probably bad karma, that.
You cheating scum!!!!!! ;)

I did not "man the ramparts" and Andy mentioned it after our game. Now that I think about it, that would be a pretty good play.

Now I wanna go out and play the scenario again to try it.....
 

jrv

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I looked this over, and I'm a little surprised a stuff defense was able to put you out of the game. The Germans have to defend four areas, the two potential on-board setup areas and the two potential entry areas. They only have thirteen squads and two dummies, and you know the units at the wall are real. That means there are about four real squads defending each sector. With deployed halfsquads the Germans can probably overload some sectors but the on-board Soviet force is a real problem. With Smoke from the ISU-122 (and perhaps squads), fire from the 9-2 and flame from the OT-34 (during the MPh of course) this group should be able to immediately take the battle into the strongpoint. Even though I understand the urge to join the two Soviet groups as soon as possible, not least because the reinforcement group only has one leader, spreading out the attack might produce a better result. The greatest difficulty I see is bringing on the Soviet reinforcement tanks, as they would be immediately threatened by German PF, PSK and possibly the 88 PaK (although I would probably go somewhere else if the 88 set up by one of the entry areas. It might be best to think of the entering ISU 122 as dead already and then if it survives count it as a bonus vehicle.

JR
 

jrv

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In fact I am so sure of the loss of the ISU-122 if I want to enter around Y10 and the Germans are at the wall I might just send it over the wall. That would probably provoke PF & PSK, but it will result in those defenders losing their concealment and might end up with a minor OVR or two (four FP up one followed by four FP down one, or two FP, avoiding that circle breakdown#?) and/or Soviet Smoke. Before this move I assault move a 5-2-7 into Z10 to grab the wall if the German loses it. The OT-34 will follow on to express its outrage at the loss of its big friend (or joy at its survival). If the ISU-122 drives into Y10 a PF fired from adjacent will hit on a eight with DRM -2 moving, -2 limited time in LOS, +1 size and possibly leadership (although I imagine no leadership); a five will hit. A PSK will start at a nine and a six will hit an ISU-122 in Y10 after one MP. The Soviets might also try to put infantry smoke in Y10 first (legally, by moving a unit into X10, Z10 and/or Y10). While I am fond of the ISU-122, perhaps I am not that fond of it, and it can be sacrificed.

JR
 
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jrv

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If the Germans launch all their PF at the ISU-122, the OT-34 would certainly consider the FT-only OVR. Thirty-two FP down one will make an opening statement of intent.

JR
 

Tuomo

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I looked this over, and I'm a little surprised a stuff defense was able to put you out of the game.
Have you SEEN me play? It takes remarkably little to put me away :)

The Germans have to defend four areas, the two potential on-board setup areas and the two potential entry areas. They only have thirteen squads and two dummies, and you know the units at the wall are real. That means there are about four real squads defending each sector.
Well, not really. It's doubtful the Germans will put much up front beyond hexrow W, maybe a picket or two, so their lines will be more compact than you're saying. Which leaves them plenty to man the ramparts with. It's definitely an all-or-nothing idea, but given that the Russian reinforcements have no room to maneuver and no Wall Advantage, it seems like a good option.

With Smoke from the ISU-122 (and perhaps squads), fire from the 9-2 and flame from the OT-34 (during the MPh of course) this group should be able to immediately take the battle into the strongpoint.
Check the setup restrictions. Even if they start around R8, the at-start Russian infantry really can't get over to the Y10 area to help the reinforcements with Smoke. Following the road behind the wall around S7-T8-U8 is fine, but eventually they'll run into those German infantrymen who have WA, and their loyalty to the Motherland will be sorely tested.

Yes, smoke from the ISU-122 is nice if you can get it (I didn't), and the at-start OT-34 should be good for toasting one German Location (mine was), but they'll be dodging PFs and PSKs. My Russian infantry did indeed start around R8 cleared the area up to the W hexrow on turn 1, just as well as they might have if they'd started around R2, with the added bonus of being able to support the Y10 reinforcement group better. Shrug?

Even though I understand the urge to join the two Soviet groups as soon as possible, not least because the reinforcement group only has one leader, spreading out the attack might produce a better result.
Might, indeed. As I explained in the original post, if the Russians enter around DD10 against a "man the ramparts" defense, they will have nowhere safe to recover from DM. The size of the two Russian groups seemed *just* small enough to make me think that splitting them up wasn't going to work. Perhaps I played it too safe, but I'm looking for someone's game experience here to tell me how to succeed against this defense.

The greatest difficulty I see is bringing on the Soviet reinforcement tanks, as they would be immediately threatened by German PF, PSK and possibly the 88 PaK (although I would probably go somewhere else if the 88 set up by one of the entry areas. It might be best to think of the entering ISU 122 as dead already and then if it survives count it as a bonus vehicle.
Perhaps so. I figured it would take 3 tanks to swarm the 88, so I was not looking to throw away a tank on turn 1. But given how my 'throw smoke from offboard' ploy was tragically lacking in rules support, perhaps that's the most reliable way to make smoke with the Russian reinforcements on turn 1. Just make sure you die in a good place.
 

jrv

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I think the on board group sets up near R1. Don't try to join the two groups. Any smoke will come from the reinforcement group.

JR
 

jrv

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Actually if the Germans concede the U5 block (or even if they don't), the on board ISU-122 can set up in R6 and Smoke Y10. Being Elite they are s9, which is also their TH#. If they fail to get Smoke they could start up and roll down down the V7 street. If the ISU-122 has Smoke, bully!; if not, I'm not that interested in it. With two ISU-122s roaming about the wall will fall very quickly. I might even risk a four down one OVR or two.

I'm not sure why you want to take out the 88LL AT with armor. That's like trying to break a guy's arm by falling on his sword. Infantry attacks the AT Gun. If you get an opportunity you can flame it with one of the OT-34s, but I wouldn't worry if that opportunity never happens.

JR
 

jrv

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To me it looks like setting up by the wall will scare away an attacker that does not have time to consider his attack. But if the attacker has time to reflect and plan, I think the wall defense can be stormed. I think the defender will lose more than he gains by that defense.

JR
 

Tuomo

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Actually if the Germans concede the U5 block (or even if they don't), the on board ISU-122 can set up in R6 and Smoke Y10. Being Elite they are s9, which is also their TH#.
Against a concealed target, that number goes down to 7.

With two ISU-122s roaming about the wall will fall very quickly. I might even risk a four down one OVR or two.
You're advocating using MG-less tanks, the only ones the Russians have that can fire smoke, to overrun German infantry in open ground in 1945, on turn 1 of the scenario.

Is there anyone else out there with an opinion?
 

jrv

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Against a concealed target, that number goes down to 7.
Not when firing SMOKE at an empty hex (or an apparently empty hex if there is any possibility of HIP; there is no possibility of HIP in this scenario). See the EXC in C6.2.

You're advocating using MG-less tanks, the only ones the Russians have that can fire smoke, to overrun German infantry in open ground in 1945, on turn 1 of the scenario.

Is there anyone else out there with an opinion?
If the first ISU-122 does not have Smoke I think I might send it for a drive. A 122mm Gun with no IF and no MGs against Germans who can easily skulk away from it isn't as much use as it might seem. If it has Smoke, naturally it isn't moving. But if it has no Smoke on the first shot I think I am going to use it for VBM sleaze at some point, and why not now?

I would regret losing the reinforcement ISU because it hasn't lost its Smoke yet. But I think I break and/or kill enough Germans at the wall to make it worth my while, if that's where they are. You can always weld and paint over the holes in time for a victory parade. If the Germans aren't at the wall then naturally I will be a bit more circumspect it, at least until it runs out of Smoke. Then its off to the sleaze races.

The lack of a MG does make the OVR threat not very credible. In fact I am more interested in using it to take wall advantage away. It's sleaze, to be sure, but we have an obligation to free the workers of Gdansk from their capitalist oppressors. Sacrifices will have to be made.

Everyone else feels that way too. I'm just one of the few who's willing to come out and say it.

JR
 

bprobst

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Russian tanks OVR German squads armed with PF has quite a decent chance of generating some smoke. If what you want/need to do is break a line and do it quickly, then there are worse ways to do it. Sure it would be expensive, but when it comes to eliminating Fascist strongpoints, Uncle Joe is handing out blank cheques.

Assuming you win, of course. If you don't, Uncle Joe's good buddy Mr. Beria will have some questions concerning your accounting.
 

Tuomo

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Interrogating the locals has added some more data points. Dean McGinley won against this defense by coming in around DD10, with much of his force advancing in after the Brave First Guys got shot up. Combining that with the at-start forces starting around R2, the Germans eventually succumbed to the nutcracker.

Dean is ballsier than me.

Andy Bradshaw also came in around DD10, but against a more spread-out defense crafted by our own Gamesquad Forum Moderator. Ergo, it was doomed to eventually collapse from a combination of bad karma, hard livin', and too many Jagermeister-YooHoo shots.
 

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ryan Kent and I are up for this one next weeek - looks like fun. Overall, i do not see why a stout german defense in any portion of the strongpoint would not be sufficient to win, study the VCs, just a single German non-encircled squad equivalent ANYWHERE in the strongpoint is enough for a win. they do NOT have to be good order, so 2 broken HS floating around non-encircled are still a german win. there is a LOT to stop the Russians from reducing the Germans in the Strongpoint to just 1 HS and some crews and leaders, in just the 4.5 turns of the game. realistically, the bolded part is the only sure way of a win.
 

jrv

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ryan Kent and I are up for this one next weeek - looks like fun. Overall, i do not see why a stout german defense in any portion of the strongpoint would not be sufficient to win, study the VCs, just a single German non-encircled squad equivalent ANYWHERE in the strongpoint is enough for a win. they do NOT have to be good order, so 2 broken HS floating around non-encircled are still a german win. there is a LOT to stop the Russians from reducing the Germans in the Strongpoint to just 1 HS and some crews and leaders, in just the 4.5 turns of the game. realistically, the bolded part is the only sure way of a win.
The German survivor(s) must be Good Order and not encircled. Upper level encirclement and melee mean that the Soviets do not have to kill everything to win. It's a very clever way to reduce the amount of monkey-work the Soviets have to do in the scenario.

JR
 
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