Make VASL more easy

[Stalingrad]

Hi guys, I'm 23 years old and I'm new player. I started some weeks ago with SK and now i'm going to FULL ASL.
I can play at ASL only by VASL because where I live is impossible find opponents.
I was thinking about simplified version of VASL to help new players to learn rules.
For example: would be nice if selecting attacker and enemy units, VASL show LOS, FP,Hindrance,DRM and show IFT Result without without need to check on the tables. Or that when i select unit in Movement Phase VASL show me the remaining MP, legal movements etc.. same in Routh Phase.
I know that old players don't like much it but i don't wanna delete traditional system. Only add this "simplified" mode and make VASL more automatic and easy, without changing its nature. This system could help new players to learn ASL system and make more big our community.
What think about it?

 

[clubby]

I think it sounds like you're looking essentially for a computer game. My thinking is having VASL do everything for you (if it's even capable) will retard your progress because you'll be less inclined to learn the rules with VASL spitting out all the results for you. VASL is just a substitute for playing FtF on a real board.

 

[zgrose]

Ya, I think you meant "make ASL easier" because VASL is just trying to be a shared virtual tabletop. There are some amazingly complex VASSAL modules out there that make learning/playing the game a breeze (Twilight Struggle, I'm looking at you) but I'm not sure it's plausible to do on the VASSAL platform for ASL.

 

[Stalingrad]

Yes, maybe would be alike computer game but i never saw computer game beautiful like ASL. When I play at Chess online, computer shows me legal movements but doesn't give advices about your strategy. I think is same for ASL. When a new player read a lot of times MP of units, or TEM of terrain, for example, he will learn easy. I repeat, this system should be alternative and not replace the traditional system

 

[clubby]

People won't learn though. They will take the results from the computer as gospel without checking the whys and whats. They will only be able to play on VASL because they won't understand the rules. You have to know the rules to play the game. If you need somebody to teach there are many people that will help you learn. Me and my usual opponents are not skilled or knowledgeable players but we manage to work ourselves through the rules and we do it mostly correct. Doing it this way has helped me become much more proficient in the rules in a very short amount of time. If VASL just told me what the shot was with the modifiers all figured out for me I guarantee you I wouldn't look at the rules half as much to figure it out for myself.

 

[witchbottles]

People won't learn though. They will take the results from the computer as gospel without checking the whys and whats. They will only be able to play on VASL because they won't understand the rules. You have to know the rules to play the game. If you need somebody to teach there are many people that will help you learn. Me and my usual opponents are not skilled or knowledgeable players but we manage to work ourselves through the rules and we do it mostly correct. Doing it this way has helped me become much more proficient in the rules in a very short amount of time. If VASL just told me what the shot was with the modifiers all figured out for me I guarantee you I wouldn't look at the rules half as much to figure it out for myself.

This... which is why, although I own and enjoy Talonsoft's East Front / West Front / Rising Sun games, I have neither read any of the manuals or rules that came with them, nor play them nearly as often as I play ASL ( they are a back-fill for when I cannot play ASL, really.)

The computer design does all that work for you, making a better computerized "game" than any VASSAL module, but a far less than ideal substitute for ASL and its intricacies within the rules.

 

[Stalingrad]

Premise that I will not convince anyone of my idea, I think in any case everyone would read and learn the rules, because to win the game you have to know where and how fire, where move, what are the hex that offer more protection etc ..

 

[Carln0130]

Premise that I will not convince anyone of my idea, I think in any case everyone would read and learn the rules, because to win the game you have to know where and how fire, where move, what are the hex that offer more protection etc ..

Another difficulty with this approach is that things do not apply uniformly in all circumstances and the total sphere of possible modifiers impacting one shot can be considerable to say the least.

Even something as simple as rolling doubles can mean many things depending on the circumstances. Lets say a 4-4 is rolled on a table 8 + 0. That could be a two column shift left if inexperienced troops are involved, a one column shift left if not and no column shift if all are leader led. If an ordnance shot, the computer would have to know if the firer was eligible for multiple hits or not. This would not be based solely on gun caliber because many 75 Shermans have the capability for multiple hits, but not all 75's do.

That's just rolling doubles, one of the simplest things in the game and doesn't count rolling snake eyes or boxcars, which in turn could also bring into effect additional things. It's a lot more complicated than it may seem.

 

[von Marwitz]

Hi guys, I'm 23 years old and I'm new player. I started some weeks ago with SK and now i'm going to FULL ASL.
I can play at ASL only by VASL because where I live is impossible find opponents.
I was thinking about simplified version of VASL to help new players to learn rules.
For example: would be nice if selecting attacker and enemy units, VASL show LOS, FP,Hindrance,DRM and show IFT Result without without need to check on the tables. Or that when i select unit in Movement Phase VASL show me the remaining MP, legal movements etc.. same in Routh Phase.
I know that old players don't like much it but i don't wanna delete traditional system. Only add this "simplified" mode and make VASL more automatic and easy, without changing its nature. This system could help new players to learn ASL system and make more big our community.
What think about it?

My advice:

Try VASL as it is. There are some people around there that have made it their mission to teach newbies on the VASL server - I am thinking first and foremost of Patrick Ireland. Think about contacting him. You won't regret it.

von Marwitz

 

[Tuomo]

What WOULD be nice is to extend VASL to enable more of an Author/Editor Mode, where someone could put together an After Action Report or VASL Example of Play logfile that new players could step through and be entertained or Learn Stuff.

Desired features of Author/Editor Mode would be:
* Specify the DR that VASL is about to return, because sometimes you want to illustrate a point by having something specific happen
* Easily edit logfiles, cutting and pasting sections together
* Pop-up balloons and other text windows to show commentary.
* Highlighting units, hexes, and general areas so the author can point things out
* Simple Office-like annotations (arrows and the like)

Etc. And since people would work through these over time, it'd be nice to save one's progress and pick up where you left off.

 

[stuh42asl]

I hope nobody ever turns ASL into a computer game,. ................That would be the death cry of a fantastic gaming system. And like so many computer games, it will be great for a while, then will fade away when another version comes out.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I hope nobody ever turns ASL into a computer game

ASL is too complex to have a competent AI : every scenario has its own tactical setting, which the AI should adapt tp.
I wouldn't worry about an computer game.
There is Steel Panthers out there anyway, and it didn't kill ASL.

 

[Jazz]

ASL is too complex to have a competent AI : every scenario has its own tactical setting, which the AI should adapt tp.
I wouldn't worry about an computer game.
There is Steel Panthers out there anyway, and it didn't kill ASL.

Not practical for AI, .......but..... it would not be all that hard to program the solitaire ASL system into an automated engine.....which is as close to a computer opponent as I think is practical.

 

[jrv]

They said the same thing about driving. They said the same thing about chess. They said the same thing about working the assembly line. So far they have not built up a very good track record.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Not practical for AI, .......but..... it would not be all that hard to program the solitaire ASL system into an automated engine.....which is as close to a computer opponent as I think is practical.

The closest thing attempted so far to this is the computer version of 'World in Flames'.

After many years of development, the game was published something like 4 years ago.
Still, they are working on fixing bugs over bugs - an AI has been in the planning stage, but if you ask me, it will be postponed indefinitely.

And the body of rules of WiF is much less than that of ASL even taking into account its numerous extensions.

Maybe when AI has become smart enough to produce computer code itself, we might see ASL as a computer game that lives up to the original.

von Marwitz

 

[Jazz]

They said the same thing about driving. They said the same thing about chess. They said the same thing about working the assembly line. So far they have not built up a very good track record.

JR

Until there is money to be made and/or research grants available, I'm not seeing any more than that happening..... Of course, I've been wrong before.

 

[witchbottles]

They said the same thing about driving. They said the same thing about chess. They said the same thing about working the assembly line. So far they have not built up a very good track record.

JR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waymo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_car

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer)'


Since you're so fond of wikipedia

nope, not any good record there at all.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Combat_(series)

one more for ya.



KRL, jon H

 

[Vinnie]

I'd like to see an ability to place more labels on the game so i could detail what is happening for an AAR.
There are some labels but they are very clumsy to use.

 

[jrv]

How would you change labels?

JR

 

[Tuomo]

I'd like to see an ability to place more labels on the game so i could detail what is happening for an AAR.
There are some labels but they are very clumsy to use.

I agree, the labels and map annotations are not as high-value as I would have liked. Really would have been better to not spend the time on them and just recommend people take screenshots and then use MS Word or Powerpoint to add annotations.