Dugouts - Missing feature in ASL?

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
That's quite sensible and is indeed an excellent idea, but it still doesn't say which side actually is the "Front" that should be pointed towards the enemy. :p
This is the sharp analysis that Mr. Weir is renown for! :thumbsup:
Nor does it say where the front is towards the front of the claymore mine is supposed to point to.

So we gotta concede that there is some of that notorious German ingeniuety featured in that field manual which the US appears not yet to have caught up with looking at that claymore mine. :bow:

von Marwitz
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
....

So we gotta concede that there is some of that notorious German ingeniuety featured in that field manual which the US appears not yet to have caught up with looking at that claymore mine. :bow:

von Marwitz
OR.....or.... the Germans have yet to write a manual for a claymore because they didn't venture to places where they would need, let alone use, them.

Also atop the mine, not visible in the pix I linked to, is a square aperture sight with an arrow pointing in the direction of fire. The Americans decided to go for the visual clue and natural inclination of Americans to use sights over umlauts . ;)
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,207
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
OR.....or.... the Germans have yet to write a manual for a claymore because they didn't venture to places where they would need, let alone use, them.
You could be right. The Germans only got stuck in administrative jungle so far, I believe. Might possibly be as bad as the jungle in Vietnam in some ways.

von Marwitz
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
When I first heard about microwaved cats, I thought it must be a joke. While I could understand first adopters not knowing how a microwave differs from a conventional over, that it heats through bulk tissue containing water as opposed to heating from the outside, I was led to the horrible conclusion that some Yanks often dried out their pets in conventional ovens :facepalm:. I've even heard of pets being put in tumble driers, some, if not most, out of cruelty but some out of ignorance. While a few times that I found a cat in my tumble drier and given him/her a spin it was turned fairly slowly using my hand with the door open, mainly to impress on him/her that bad things could happen in there. One, can't remember who, though had a phase where it decided that it found its own cat sized hamster wheel. Fortunately that did not last long but meant that I had to be extra vigilant when even thinking about using the tumble drier.

As for claymore signs how about opposite paired:
Good & Bad
Live & Die
If you still can read this you are safe. & If you still can read this you will die.
This side towards enemy. & This side towards friends.

The last would be the simplest and most idiot proof. Though when I was a novice programmer, a seasoned programmer gave me this advice "You can make a system foolproof, you can make it idiot proof but you can never ever make it gobshite proof".
 

R Hooks

Smoke Break brb
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
762
Reaction score
209
Location
beaumont texas
Country
llUnited States
I have never seen a microwaved cat and I count that as a plus in life, but I have seen one fluff dried in a normal clothes dryer. Back about 50 years ago I ran a poker game in my dorm room. Cute little girl knocked on my door during the game with a "have you seen my kitty" NOooo, but another guy playing says there were a couple of guys down on the first level putting one in a dryer... ekkk and she ran off.. only to return five minutes later banging on my door and calling us names for not stopping the kitty torture. from my view the cat seemed fine except for her AFRO hair doo.

WARNING
Do not try my example at home, injury my result
 
Last edited:

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,733
Reaction score
2,765
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
The same situations as described above could of course arise not only in WW1 but as well in WW2. The annex No. 2 of "Feldbefestigungen des deutschen Heeres" states that the following measure of overhead cover would be deemed necessary for safe protection vs. a direct hit of 10.5cm shells (for example): filled soil - 5 meters, "gewachsener" Boden (dunno the English term - natural unmoved soil) - 4 meters, clay/loam - 4 meters, sand/debris - 3.8 meters, soft woods - 3.4 meters, hard woods - 2.8 meters, etc. Values for a 120mm MTR: filled soil - 7 to 8 meters, clay/loam - 5.5 to 6.5 meters, sand/debris - 4.8 to 6 meters. This is considerable. It is highly unlikely that most dugouts of WW2 went that far into the ground. So the "normal" dugouts in WW2 would in many cases not be proof vs. direct hits of artillery of rather common calibers, which in turn makes occurrences of soldiers being bombed in their dugouts probable.
Yes, I was asking if you had any anecdotes of this actually happening. ASL scenarios are almost always structured around actual combat reports. If there aren't any, this seems like a solution in search of a problem.
 

Helmseye

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
798
Reaction score
125
Location
twickenham
Country
llUnited Kingdom
in what situation would you want to be in a dug out rather than a trench?

+4 vs oba or

a dugout could be +8 but no option to shoot in dff so enemy walks up to dug out and throws in some grenades and does some CC
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,594
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
If I were to design a Dugout rule, I would perhaps portray it as a Fortified "Cellar" Location in the Trench hex, with LOS restricted to/from units IN the Trench (and possibly Area Fire from/to it), with a +4 TEM ; it would be unvulnerable to Indirect Fire or OVR (EXC: if Shellholes are created, it would be destroyed with the Trench altogether).
 

Augie

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
745
Reaction score
224
Location
Florida
Country
llUnited States
ClaymoreMineBack.jpg 18CLAY-013703.jpg
That's quite sensible and is indeed an excellent idea, but it still doesn't say which side actually is the "Front" that should be pointed towards the enemy. :p
Actually, it does say "Back" on the back. Raised letters on the claymore so you can braille read it in the dark.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
Sorry to quote with the full attachment, but there's a reason: I'm delightfully entertained by the arrow notation "feindwärts" ("toward the enemy").

Without that, who knows what horrible misconfiguration might have occurred. "OK Sarge, we're all set! They'll never know what hit 'em!" "Dorfmann you idiot! It's facing the wrong way!"
there's always a FNG - hence the same label on a Claymore.....

upload_2016-12-11_6-19-12.jpeg
 

R Hooks

Smoke Break brb
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
762
Reaction score
209
Location
beaumont texas
Country
llUnited States
If I were to design a Dugout rule, I would perhaps portray it as a Fortified "Cellar" Location in the Trench hex, with LOS restricted to/from units IN the Trench (and possibly Area Fire from/to it), with a +4 TEM ; it would be unvulnerable to Indirect Fire or OVR (EXC: if Shellholes are created, it would be destroyed with the Trench altogether).
I wouldn't limit the dugout to the trench hex, but it would have to be attached to a specific trench hex (pointy arrow), allow CC from and to units IN the trench, also a "dig your self out" rule if the trench is destroyed by attacks. That maybe beyond a ASL game however, a friend in my Vietnam unit had spent about 6 hours buried in a command bunker after a rocket attack.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
could go with this warning label:

If that's not a liberal plot then it would be a good idea if California sent an letter or even an email to Michigan, specifically to the city of Flint.
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
If that's not a liberal plot then it would be a good idea if California sent an letter or even an email to Michigan, specifically to the city of Flint.
Err. No. The memo needed to go out wold wide to all a long time ago...Brown Bess spewed it way before it was in the water in Flint.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,594
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I wouldn't limit the dugout to the trench hex, but it would have to be attached to a specific trench hex (pointy arrow)
What would it change if it were placed in the trench hex, if it is attached to only a specific one?
There would be no need of an arrow, as it would automatically be considered connected to the trench of its hex.
 
Top