Why do you buy Critical Hit products? (anonymous poll)

Why do you buy Critical Hit products? (please select up to THREE answers)

  • I am more or less a completist and just can't help myself.

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • I believe that Critical Hit makes high quality products.

    Votes: 6 6.6%
  • I can't help buying a CH product if it is on a subject that interests me.

    Votes: 33 36.3%
  • I get entranced by the counters and/or maps.

    Votes: 26 28.6%
  • I generally just use them as game kits for design your own scenarios.

    Votes: 8 8.8%
  • I mostly play solitaire and things like balance don't matter to me.

    Votes: 19 20.9%
  • The errata, development and playtesting issues, real or alleged, simply are not a big deal to me.

    Votes: 12 13.2%
  • Sometimes I just want to spend money on ASL.

    Votes: 12 13.2%
  • It is easier to find Critical Hit products than some other ASL-related products.

    Votes: 6 6.6%
  • They do products on esoteric subjects.

    Votes: 39 42.9%
  • Critical Hit products can't be as bad as people say they are

    Votes: 9 9.9%
  • I don't really know why; I just keep buying them.

    Votes: 3 3.3%

  • Total voters
    91

RRschultze

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Welcome to the ASL community. :)
Pretty much everyone has issues with CH in general, and Tapio specifically. A little research into the history of Critical Hit's relationship with ASL, MMP, and the ASL community in general might sway your opinion. This isn't something that just came up a week ago, it's close to a couple of decades of history. Few here would be "flattered" to be mentioned in the same breath with Ray Tapio. Some of their early stuff is indeed good, but that was a long time ago. You can read reviews of all of their ASL offerings on the Desperation Morale website and judge for yourself.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Pitman's Desperation Morale site provides a totally unbiased view of products.... yeah my &^%$ !!!
 

Jeffhew

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Pitman's Desperation Morale site provides a totally unbiased view of products.... yeah my &^%$ !!!
Where, exactly, did I say his reviews were totally unbiased? It isn't hard to spot Mark's disdain for Tapio in his reviews, but his reviews of the products are thorough, critical and generally provide the necessary information for folks to make an educated purchasing decision. If you read his reviews carefully, even on the stuff he hates, he still manages to highlight the good things in a product. It doesn't take that much work for an educated reader to separate the "wheat from the chaff" so to speak, in Mark's reviews.
Regards,
Jeff
 
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Robin Reeve

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It doesn't take that much work for an educated reader to separate the "wheat from the chaff" so to speak, in Mark's reviews.
For sure.
With the exception, perhaps, of purely factual listings, any review is biased (one could certainly even argue that the order of data listed already expresses an intention).

I think that you pointed the place where the problem resides : "educated reader".
It seems that some people live with the illusion that pure objectivity can be reached, when it comes to evaluate a cultural product (a book, a movie, a game).
Even in the world of hard science, the pure objectivity of a lone observer is questioned - thus the constant testing and measuring of data, with evolving hypotheses and models of the scientific community.
There also can be the demand from some people that DM must be a propaganda site in favour of all ASL related products - or at least in line with what a given reader thinks.

Anyone who goes on DM and reads Mark's reviews considering them as pure objective truth is not an educated reader indeed.
 

seagles

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In my experience, Mark's "reviews" of CH consist entirely of product description and version history. If you want to know what's included, and how he rates the component quality (e.g., "superfluous counter sheets", "map panels are a pain in the ass", etc.), as well as general scenario details (size, how many use OBA, how many Night, etc.) then he's your man. But to call the reviews thorough is a definite stretch.

Mind you, he doesn't claim to be writing complete reviews and what he does offer is certainly better than nothing. YMMV.

S.
 

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ATS is their "thing".
I have had issues with their ATS to ASL adaptations, which had either useless or erroneous SSR, and the terrain depictions of both systems don't always match.
What is your experience with ASL?
Some of the errors and approximations are blatant for any experienced player.
Having no issues is hardly possible.
My experience with ASL?
Well, I bought the first SL in 1977, and I have had issues with SL/ASL since day one... but only because I wanted a game that (I felt) was more like real life - than a game... but that's on me, not SL/ASL. I always wanted a Tobruk/SL (ASL) marriage.

As a game - I always liked SL/ASL, otherwise I wouldn't have played it for 15-20 years.

I haven't delved into ATS-ASL conversions, so I haven't noticed the errors you site above.
 
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Robin Reeve

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The change here, is that we have a player who has no issues with CH products.
Even a Ray Tapio sycophant like Scott Holst reckons that the quality of CH products is variable.
CH produce loads of junk, among which one can find, after thorough scavenging, some average or perhaps good HASL or scenario packs.
But having no issues with a heap of untested, error riddled publications is for the least an unusual point of view.
 

Gunner Scott

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Ya both pitmann (who rarely plays ASL) and his trusty sycophant side kick swifty really make posting here a real downer. But in the end, its funny watching these guys trip over each other to rush to herr pitmanns side. To funny.

Well some things have not changed with the new site.................
 

RRschultze

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Where, exactly, did I say his reviews were totally unbiased? It isn't hard to spot Mark's disdain for Tapio in his reviews, but his reviews of the products are thorough, critical and generally provide the necessary information for folks to make an educated purchasing decision. If you read his reviews carefully, even on the stuff he hates, he still manages to highlight the good things in a product. It doesn't take that much work for an educated reader to separate the "wheat from the chaff" so to speak, in Mark's reviews.
Regards,
Jeff
Jeff
you didnt say his reviews were unbiased, i did!
As other members have previously mentioned he provides his own 'opinion' on modules and in my opinion, a lot of people are 'wooed' by his comments. I for one are not. The issues i see on reading his CH reviews is stupid comments on the maps being too 'glossy' and other negative comments like 'there is OBA and aircraft in this scenario' etc. because he doesn't like OBA/Aircraft, he isn't the voice of the majority.
I dont wont to knock the guy as ASL is a niche hobby/game and I do review his site, as he provides pictures of the modules and i have posted comments re the Ponyri Monster module. Most people are savvy with their cash and will buy what interests them.
Regards
Ian AKA Ray! (joking)
 

witchbottles

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My experience with ASL?
Well, I bought the first SL in 1977, and I have had issues with SL/ASL since day one... but only because I wanted a game that (I felt) was more like real life - than a game... but that's on me, not SL/ASL. I always wanted a Tobruk/SL (ASL) marriage.

As a game - I always liked SL/ASL, otherwise I wouldn't have played it for 15-20 years.

I haven't delved into ATS-ASL conversions, so I haven't noticed the errors you site above.
To be completely fair, Tobruk has little to nothing to compare to "real life" either. ( nor does SL or ASL). All three and many other good wargames are just that design for feel GAMES. We all enjoy them because we enjoy the challenge of a good game, and that is likely the reason we all play them for years or decades past their original acquisition.

I agree with you, to each their own, but I shudder at the thought of someone making a conflict simulation that even approaches the reality of armed conflict. ( And I hope no one ever tries to, truth be told.)

ATS is just Critical Hits' manifestation of the "squads and leaders" idea from the early 1990s. They incorporated "changes" they felt were needed, " additions" they felt ASL was missing, and " deletions" that they felt ASL was ponderous because of. It is in the end just another design for feel tactical level wargame. Either one enjoys the minutiae or not.


:)

KRL, Jon H
 

BW92

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To be completely fair, Tobruk has little to nothing to compare to "real life" either. ( nor does SL or ASL). All three and many other good wargames are just that design for feel GAMES. We all enjoy them because we enjoy the challenge of a good game, and that is likely the reason we all play them for years or decades past their original acquisition.

I agree with you, to each their own, but I shudder at the thought of someone making a conflict simulation that even approaches the reality of armed conflict. ( And I hope no one ever tries to, truth be told.)

ATS is just Critical Hits' manifestation of the "squads and leaders" idea from the early 1990s. They incorporated "changes" they felt were needed, " additions" they felt ASL was missing, and " deletions" that they felt ASL was ponderous because of. It is in the end just another design for feel tactical level wargame. Either one enjoys the minutiae or not.


:)

KRL, Jon H
Well, to clarify, when SL came out back in 1977, it was revolutionary as a game. In my memory of that time - only Tobruk tackled the same small unit level combat (for WW2 anyway).
That being said, there were aspects of Tobruk I always felt were superior to what SL offered.
1) Such as the ability in Tobruk for infantry to drop to "Full Cover", protecting them from infantry direct fire;
2) Tobruk kept track of individual squad losses instead of Full Squad/Half Squad/ Eliminated..and that was determined by ...morale?
3) I prefered Tobruk's system of armor vs penetration statistics - compared to SL (and I think Yaqunito's series of '88', Panzer, and Armor was the best overall - but I think it was still a refinement of Hal Hock's Tobruk system).
That was just a few quick examples pulled from the dusty archives of memory some 40 years back.

To be certain, SL had many nice touches - such as the importance of exceptional Leaders and the Morale Check/Break mechanics that entered into the combat psychology aspect of results.... And of course SL (and later ASL) covered a much wider field of action. Perhaps the biggest seller to SL was (and don't laugh - commercially this really matters) - It was Much Prettier.
But on the other hand, SL/ASL never gave you a realistic TO&E (big example: Infantry squads always had an LMG in each squad for it's base of fire power, ... too many things along this line to lay out here - not necessarily saying Tobruk was better - I don't remember...but I always hated that about SL/ASL), so in other words - without the actual TO&E done at the squad/platoon/company level - you can't make it tactically work like real-life conterparts did... (a Lonnng time ago I was an infantryman [not a combat veteran...NO CIB] so I have an understanding how things work)

I always wanted a more complete marriage of the two systems - for more of a feel of reality, or perhaps better stated as - more plausible outcomes that would reward you for playing more as your real counterparts would act....(at least in my mind).

As for the horror of real war...fa'gettaboutit. Never possible to do in a game - nor would it be much fun....so that's not what I meant earlier (but your point is taken).

Cheers
 
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Pitman

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Jeff
you didnt say his reviews were unbiased, i did!
As other members have previously mentioned he provides his own 'opinion' on modules and in my opinion, a lot of people are 'wooed' by his comments. I for one are not. The issues i see on reading his CH reviews is stupid comments on the maps being too 'glossy' and other negative comments like 'there is OBA and aircraft in this scenario' etc. because he doesn't like OBA/Aircraft, he isn't the voice of the majority.
I dont wont to knock the guy as ASL is a niche hobby/game and I do review his site, as he provides pictures of the modules and i have posted comments re the Ponyri Monster module. Most people are savvy with their cash and will buy what interests them.
Regards
Ian AKA Ray! (joking)
At no time have I ever said "there is OBA and aircraft in this scenario" as a criticism. The only times I have been critical of OBA (this is not really applicable to aircraft) is when a product has too high a percentage of scenarios with OBA and this is because many ASLers are not crazy about OBA, so too high a proportion lessens the play value for them.

My personal opinions about OBA (not much of a fan) or aircraft (seems okay in ASL) are not really relevant to the write-ups.

I have never made a "stupid comment" on the website, on any subject. Re glossy maps, you may not be aware of it, but many people do not like them (which is one reason why MMP recently went back to a more matte look for its maps).
 

Pitman

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Tobruk and Squad Leader had two entirely different design approaches. Tobruk was all about bean-counting, while Squad Leader was design for effect. Not anal retentively trying to have individual squad losses is one of advantages of SL, not one of its defects. John Hill consciously rejected that approach and he was right to do so. ASL did not continue squarely in that vein (witness the bean counting for the USMC, for example), but it is still generally in that spirit. It is highly superior to Tobruk (which is why it is still around and popular today).

Well, to clarify, when SL came out back in 1977, it was revolutionary as a game. In my memory of that time - only Tobruk tackled the same small unit level combat (for WW2 anyway).
That being said, there were aspects of Tobruk I always felt were superior to what SL offered.
1) Such as the ability in Tobruk for infantry to drop to "Full Cover", protecting them from infantry direct fire;
2) Tobruk kept track of individual squad losses instead of Full Squad/Half Squad/ Eliminated..and that was determined by ...morale?
3) I prefered Tobruk's system of armor vs penetration statistics - compared to SL (and I think Yaqunito's series of '88', Panzer, and Armor was the best overall - but I think it was still a refinement of Hal Hock's Tobruk system).
That was just a few quick examples pulled from the dusty archives of memory some 40 years back.

To be certain, SL had many nice touches - such as the importance of exceptional Leaders and the Morale Check/Break mechanics that entered into the combat psychology aspect of results.... And of course SL (and later ASL) covered a much wider field of action. Perhaps the biggest seller to SL was (and don't laugh - commercially this really matters) - It was Much Prettier.
But on the other hand, SL/ASL never gave you a realistic TO&E (big example: Infantry squads always had an LMG in each squad for it's base of fire power, ... too many things along this line to lay out here - not necessarily saying Tobruk was better - I don't remember...but I always hated that about SL/ASL), so in other words - without the actual TO&E done at the squad/platoon/company level - you can't make it tactically work like real-life conterparts did... (a Lonnng time ago I was an infantryman [not a combat veteran...NO CIB] so I have an understanding how things work)

I always wanted a more complete marriage of the two systems - for more of a feel of reality, or perhaps better stated as - more plausible outcomes that would reward you for playing more as your real counterparts would act....(at least in my mind).

As for the horror of real war...fa'gettaboutit. Never possible to do in a game - nor would it be much fun....so that's not what I meant earlier (but your point is taken).

Cheers
 

witchbottles

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At no time have I ever said "there is OBA and aircraft in this scenario" as a criticism. The only times I have been critical of OBA (this is not really applicable to aircraft) is when a product has too high a percentage of scenarios with OBA and this is because many ASLers are not crazy about OBA, so too high a proportion lessens the play value for them.

My personal opinions about OBA (not much of a fan) or aircraft (seems okay in ASL) are not really relevant to the write-ups.

I have never made a "stupid comment" on the website, on any subject. Re glossy maps, you may not be aware of it, but many people do not like them (which is one reason why MMP recently went back to a more matte look for its maps).
All self-modesty aside, I do believe that is an entirely subjective judgement. ;) For both sides.......:nod:
 

bprobst

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I have never made a "stupid comment" on the website, on any subject.
We-e-lll ... let's just agree that you don't believe that any of your comments could be described as "stupid". You have, on occasion, made statements on the site that are more opinion than fact, and on occasion, some of those opinions are (IMO) not based on very sound reasoning. I'm talking very rare occurrences here, not trying to apply some sort of blanket criticism.
 

Blackcloud6

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I used to never buy a CH product as I usually got a copy for helping playtest. By then I never really played the product anymore as I was tired of it from repeated playtesting. So on the pile it went.

Now I'll buy a CH product if the subject really interests me and I get a coupon code to bring the price down to reality.

I have one friend with whom we take a CH pack and play through the whole pack as a "campaign." I play the same side through all the scenarios and he, the other. We play for experience of the campaign but do so in more digestible pieces than a normal HASL CG does and finishing a scenario means some time can pass, due to real life, before getting on with the next one. I find the CH stuff fits this kind of play nicely. We are going to play the last scenario of Ruweisat Ridge this coming Friday and then maybe move on to another. So, doing this, I get a quite good value out of the CH packs.
 

Neal

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Oddly, this page popped up in google when I was doing a search for something related to ASL, so here I am...5 years late. 😁

Anyway, why do people care how other's spend their money? Go buy all the ASL stuff you want, as long as you get enjoyment from it. I find it a strange phenomenon.

And yes, I've bought some CH stuff, never at retail, either off Ebay or using a 30% off code.
 

Steve H

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I buy quite a bit of their product and am not ashamed to admit it. I buy CH modules that MMP, BFP, LFT and LCP either do not produce, or are not planning on making in the future. CH makes some great looking HASL maps (but no...I am not a fan of the panels) their counters are in colour, and they cover a number of areas like Korea and the DTO that others don't. I have both ABTF and CH Third Bridge, and the CH map is head and shoulders better than MMP. I do not play GWASL, but I have a keen interest in the Middle East wars. I play mostly to recreate tactical combat, not to win a game so I recognize I am different than most ASL players. Therefore balance of a scenario is not the most important aspect for me. But I am happily in a position where I can buy whatever, and as much ASL as I want.
But I will conclude with the statement that if MMP, BFP, LFT or LCP make a module, I will buy theirs first.
 
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