Rules question on M3A1 US vehicle

[Jacksons]

I had a question about the M3A1 US Vehicle:

it has a choice of a 227 infantry crew or 346 1/2 squad as an inherant PRC in addition to the vehicle crew.

the vehicle has a dm 50cal and dm MMG that is removeable.

For normal 1/4 MP's unloading can the PRC take both the 50 cal and the MMG or may it only take the MMG?

I assume that if the vehicle crew abandons it can take the 50 cal and the PRC can take the MMG?

Stan

 

[Sparafucil3]

Vehicle note I applies. It says the crew can take the .50 when it Abandons and the Passenger can take the 30 cal when it unloads. According to the note (29), the .50 was in the cab and the 30 cal was on a pintle mount in the back. That's how I would play it. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Vehicle note I applies. It says the crew can take the .50 when it Abandons and the Passenger can take the 30 cal when it unloads. According to the note (29), the .50 was in the cab and the 30 cal was on a pintle mount in the back. That's how I would play it. -- jim

I think he is asking about Vehicle Note 39 (the M3A1 Scout Car) - and for that one I think the MG can only Removed per D6.631 (MAVN I) by an Abandoning crew.

 

[Sparafucil3]

I think he is asking about Vehicle Note 39 (the M3A1 Scout Car) - and for that one I think the MG can only Removed per D6.631 (MAVN I) by an Abandoning crew.

I think he was asking about the HT. If you're assumption is correct, then your answer is too. -- jim

Edit to add: on second look, the additions 3-4-6/crew is called a "Passenger". The &2 (ie, Cal 30/MMG) is fired by the passenger and the 4 (i.e. .50) is fired by the crew. I think my original answer would be correct for both, no?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Per Vehicle Note 39 - the Passengers can take MG off:

† Each M3A1 Scout Car starts the scenario with an Inherent crew, and also with either a 3-4-6 (or as otherwise specified by SSR) HS or a 2-2-7 crew (owner’s choice of HS or crew) as a Passenger that applies to the vehicle’s PP capacity (D6.1). This vehicle can retain any unpossessed SW aboard it (D6.4), its crew/Passenger may Remove its MG armament (D6.631), and Mounted Fire penalties (D6.1) do not apply to its Passenger(s).

 

[Sparafucil3]

Which is to say, I was wrong to begin with, Klas was wrong on the Scout Car, then we got together in Discord and sorted it out -- jim

 

[Jacksons]

I think he is asking about Vehicle Note 39 (the M3A1 Scout Car) - and for that one I think the MG can only Removed per D6.631 (MAVN I) by an Abandoning crew.

Klas,

Yes I was referring to the scout car. There is a little bit of confusion because the player has the choice of the inherant PRC as an infantry crew. The rules refer to a crew removing but in the rules you can only assume that it is the vehicle crew they are referring to.

To see if i understand the correctly:

The PRC can remove the dm MMG as part of normal unloading but the 50cal MA can only be removed by an abandoning vehicle crew? So in no case can the Passenger remove the 50cal MA? When the veh crew abandons can it take both weapons or can the crew take 1 and the PRC take the other. Can the mmg be taken by the PRC only on abandonment and not on unloading.


Thanks for the help,

Stan

 

[Sparafucil3]

Look at Vehicle note 39: "† Each M3A1 Scout Car starts the scenario with an Inherent crew, and also with either a 3-4-6 (or as otherwise specified by SSR) HS or a 2-2-7 crew (owner’s choice of HS or crew) as a Passenger ...". There is a crew driving and possibly a crew passenger (owner's choice). The Passenger can take the .30 on unload, the crew can take the .50 when it Abandons. I also believe the crew could Abandon with both but the realism on that is a STRETCH IMO. -- jim

 

[Sparafucil3]

OK. More back and forth with Klas on Discord: per vehicle Note 39, it seems like the Passengers can take one/both the .50 and the 30 cal when Unloading. The crew can take one/both when Abandoning. I believe this is also Klas' understanding but he is free to chime in here to the contrary if he needs to.

Having said that, I think the rules here are pretty inconsistent, especially when compared to other notes. The M3 MMG/HMG only allow the Secondary Armament to be removed by the Passenger. Vehicle Note E for the Scout Car only allows the crew to fire the .50, not the Passenger. Might be worth a Q&A. -- jim

 

[von Marwitz]

Edited:

The M3(MMG), M3(HMG), M3A1 halftrack, and the M3A1 scout car are pretty similar with regard to the requirements for the removal of weaponry but not exactly the same. This is the first point of confusion.

The second point of confusion are the differences of removal capablities when the respective Inherent Vehicular Crew, Passenger Crew or Passenger Squad/HS either Unload or Abandon the vehicles.

The third point of confusion is about which type of vehicular MG takes what form of dismantled MG after being removed from the vehicle.

See this thread that should answer many questions, but not all.

To resolve that confusion once and for all, it might make sense to list all the relevant rules, vehicle notes, and multi-applicable vehicle notes in one single post which also lists what you can get out of each vehicle by what method.

Maybe I can bring myself to compile that once and for all, then have that shredded and corrected by Klas a couple of times before it finally stands firm.


von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think there is a difference between the M3(MMG) + M3(HMG) and the M3A1 Scout Car. The Vehicle Note for the former specifically says the Passengers may only remove the secondary AAMG. I see no such requirement for the M3A1 SC - inconsistent as thay may be.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I would say the answer is that as the 227 Crew is a Passenger, it cannot remove the AAMG as a dm .50Cal from the Scout Car - only the inherent Vehicular Crew may do so.

But U.S. Vehicle Note 39 says:
† Each M3A1 Scout Car starts the scenario with an Inherent crew, and also with either a 3-4-6 (or as otherwise specified by SSR) HS or a 2-2-7 crew (owner’s choice of HS or crew) as a Passenger that applies to the vehicle’s PP capacity (D6.1). This vehicle can retain any unpossessed SW aboard it (D6.4), its crew/Passenger may Remove its MG armament (D6.631), and Mounted Fire penalties (D6.1) do not apply to its Passenger(s).

I see no restriction here (nor in D6.631) on which of the MG the Passengers can Remove.

 

[von Marwitz]

But U.S. Vehicle Note 39 says:
† Each M3A1 Scout Car starts the scenario with an Inherent crew, and also with either a 3-4-6 (or as otherwise specified by SSR) HS or a 2-2-7 crew (owner’s choice of HS or crew) as a Passenger that applies to the vehicle’s PP capacity (D6.1). This vehicle can retain any unpossessed SW aboard it (D6.4), its crew/Passenger may Remove its MG armament (D6.631), and Mounted Fire penalties (D6.1) do not apply to its Passenger(s).

I see no restriction here (nor in D6.631) on which of the MG the Passengers can Remove.

You are correct, I edited my previous post.

von Marwitz

 

[Sparafucil3]

I think there is a difference between the M3(MMG) + M3(HMG) and the M3A1 Scout Car. The Vehicle Note for the former specifically says the Passengers may only remove the secondary AAMG. I see no such requirement for the M3A1 SC - inconsistent as thay may be.

While I agree with @von Marwitz 's argument, I also don't think the rules support his (and my) position. I agree with your summation. As it is now, the rules are inconsistent. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Any clues from the corresponding Russian, British, or Chinese Vehicle Notes?
NRBH.

 

[Eagle4ty]

From the ALLIED MINORS MAVN 34: "...its crew/Passenger may Remove either of its MG [ERRATA: this also applies true for the U.S. M3A1 Scout Car]...". If people have adequately posted applicable ERRATA to their Chapter H vehicle notes this would have patently clear by referencing to any notes to the M3A1 SC.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

From the ALLIED MINORS MAVN 34: "...its crew/Passenger may Remove either of its MG [ERRATA: this also applies true for the U.S. M3A1 Scout Car]...". If people have adequately posted applicable ERRATA to their Chapter H vehicle notes this would have patently clear by referencing to any notes to the M3A1 SC.

Which was issued as errata in ASL Journal 8 (now incorporated in Yanks 2):
U.S. Vehicle Note 39: First †, last line, replace “crew” with “crew/Passenger”.

I believe the errata was primarily the addition of "Passenger" - not "either". As the U.S. Vehicle Note places no restriction on which the crew/Passenger can Remove - it only refers to D6.631 - which has no restricitons either. So these two are in sync - the Chinese Note has the same text as the Allied Minor, btw.

 

[Jacksons]

Thanks to all!
I understand now. I guess I should post my errata.

Stan

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I had a question about the M3A1 US Vehicle:

for future reference

M3A1 SC
M3A1 HT

M3A1 light tank
M3A1 medium tank

 

[Yuri0352]

for future reference

M3A1 SC View attachment 14226
M3A1 HT View attachment 14227

M3A1 light tank View attachment 14228
M3A1 medium tankView attachment 14229

BTW, that new Tamiya kit is AWESOME!