ASL verses ASLSK - A question

[lt_steiner]

May I quote your figures in an article I'm writing for publication?

Sure. But be aware, I may have miscounted if the BGG list is not up to date (not taking 2020 into account).
And as stated above, I intentionally did not look at 3rd party producers.

 

[Neal]

Just different complexities of the same fundamental system, SK being a stepping stone for those who choose to go on to the full blown system...

At least for now.

I see SK slowly expanding into full system complexity. Exp #2 is adding another nationality (and rules that pertain to them) and overlays. It sounds like DTO is coming. And I can only assume OBA will be added to the main ruleset because it already exists in Elst.

The full system can't really be expanded from a ruleset POV, it's pretty much done ... so that's happening with SK.

It is what it is, but down the road I don't think there will be a huge distinction between ASL and ASLSK beyond one of them missing most of the esoteric and specialize circumstance rules.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Bypass and Dash are not esoteric.

 

[kempenfelter]

I'm one of those players that will play Full ASL or SK ASL, I'm not in one camp or the other. Lately though, as I've been trying to grasp the complexities of VASL, the relative simplicity of Starter Kit has made the learning process that much easier. Well, that and the patience of the friends who are teaching me the online game.

 

[Old Noob]

When I can play, it makes no difference whether or not it is ASL or ASLSK. I can lose at either.
However, there are a few instances where ASLSK mapboards were used in a full blown ASL scenario.

 

[Actionjick]

An interesting thread however I know nothing about the ASLSK. I would like to know if the difference between SL and ASL is greater than the difference between ASL and the ASLSK. Thanks.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

The SL-CoI-CoD-GI were like a chain of partly successful breeding experiments that eventually resulted in ASL whilst ASLSK is like a ASL's baby.

There is nothing in ASLSK that's not in ASL, while the SL series to ASL resulted in many changes.

 

[Actionjick]

Thinking about your description of the evolution of the SL system, I'll let you know the outcome, seems pretty on point though.

I know why SL is not ASL but don't know the same for ASLSK. I assume all the physical components are compatible as apparently are the rules so is the only difference the omission of more complex rules?

I ask this because I find it curious that a significant number of ASLSK players won't play ASL and some are looking for more complexity in the ASLSK system. I understood why some SL players didn't move on. Is it the same for ASLSK players?

Anyway, MMP should give these players what they want, we are a disappearing breed, boardgamers and boardgame companies. This breeding experiment can use all additions to the gene pool.

Cutthroat Kitchen playing as I'm typing. Dave Ginnard's son is being judged.

 

[Robin Reeve]

ASLSK don't have concealment, bypass, dash, fire lanes, battle hardening and prisoners, among many other features.
Map terrain is less diverse.
But some elements have been implemented with the progression of the series : hedges, HIP, etc.

ASLSK offers a simplified experience of ASL.
SL and gamettes were fraught with contradictions and they are hardly compatible with ASL.
One main improvement that ASL and ASLSK both have are the Defensive First Fire mechanics.
And the SL line is cold dead.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I ask this because I find it curious that a significant number of ASLSK players won't play ASL and some are looking for more complexity in the ASLSK system. I understood why some SL players didn't move on. Is it the same for ASLSK players?

I don't. It'll be rare that among a circle of friends and workmates you will find more than a handful that wish to play boardgames, never mind historical military games. Ditto, those who do play wargames will have different comfort zones with regard to complexity. Don't ever forget that us ASLers are the extreme outlier, we are the uber nerds. ASL is supposed to be a diversion, entertainment, not a job or sworn vow of sacred dedication. When it ceases to be fun, it's time to say "No more!".

 

[trailrunner]

ASLSK don't have concealment, bypass, dash, fire lanes, battle hardening and prisoners, among many other features.

SK4 introduced concealment.

 

[dlazov]

So will SK5 introduce bypass and fire lanes and armored assault?

Wonder if SK6 will introduce para drops and SK7 seaborne assaults?

 

[Robin Reeve]

SK4 introduced concealment.

Which I implied:

But some elements have been implemented with the progression of the series : hedges, HIP, etc.

 

[trailrunner]

I ask this because I find it curious that a significant number of ASLSK players won't play ASL and some are looking for more complexity in the ASLSK system. I understood why some SL players didn't move on. Is it the same for ASLSK players?

The SK system now has four core modules, an expansion pack and one more in the works, a campaign game, and new scenarios being published. SK provides a rich experience with only 50 percent of the rules of ASL. For many SK players, there is no compelling reason to move up the full game.

 

[Robin Reeve]

So will SK5 introduce bypass and fire lanes and armored assault?

Wonder if SK6 will introduce para drops and SK7 seaborne assaults?

What could be annoying, is when the frontier between both systems is blurred in a way that, as a full ASL player, I won't spot where the differences are.
I still can play SK with SK players, because there are significant differences - but I only play SK1 admittedly.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The SK system now has four core modules, an expansion pack and one more in the works, a campaign game, and new scenarios being published. SK provides a rich experience with only 50 percent of the rules of ASL. For many SK players, there is no compelling reason to move up the full game.

Indeed.
It has become a separate market.
Willy or nilly, we must accept it.
And, as I previously said, I rather see the SK as an undirect support to full ASL - at least financially, but also because the maps can be and have been used in full ASL designs.

 

[trailrunner]

So will SK5 introduce bypass and fire lanes and armored assault?

Wonder if SK6 will introduce para drops and SK7 seaborne assaults?

Bypass would be hard to implement at this point. The SK scenarios and rules are for the most part consistent with each other, from Retaking Vierville to Kawaguchi's Gamble. If they introduced bypass now, then we'd have to keep track of which scenarios allow bypass, and which do not.

Some people want to see DTO in the next SK module. We'll see what happens.

 

[Actionjick]

I don't. It'll be rare that among a circle of friends and workmates you will find more than a handful that wish to play boardgames, never mind historical military games. Ditto, those who do play wargames will have different comfort zones with regard to complexity. Don't ever forget that us ASLers are the extreme outlier, we are the uber nerds. ASL is supposed to be a diversion, entertainment, not a job or sworn vow of sacred dedication. When it ceases to be fun, it's time to say "No more!".

Those that we knew who decided not to attempt ASL were either moving on with their lives along paths that didn't have time for gaming or were quite content with occasional playing of SL, flaws and all. ASL required a commitment that they didn't need.

You are spot on with your observation of what ASL is supposed to be, a fun diversion. Fish and I burnt out and dropped out because it lost that for us and became a job that wasn't fun anymore.
It was suprisingly easy to just say " no more " and enjoy the fun and comradeship offered by simpler games. That being said it wasn't easy to ignore the void that resulted from our decision to withdraw. Twenty five years later it still isn't, obviously.

 

[von Marwitz]

SK4 introduced concealment.

But only if PTO is in effect. And shooting a quick glance at it, the Concealment rules of SK are much shorter than those in ASL. So still a big difference.

IMHO Concealment and Bypass alone make ASL and SK fundamentally different in the way they play.
Despite the SK rules not contradicting the ASL rules (maybe with very few EXCs).

And there is another point:

Even with 'only' SK1-4 published, you now already need several 'rulebooks' to play SK if you want to play 'full SK' (there is some irony to that expression...). Concealement is only covered in the SK4 rulebook. But in the SK4 rulebook, you don't have notes for non-US, non-Japanese ordnance to name an example.

What if a scenario pack is published?

Are the designers required to adhere to SK1 only, SK2 only, SK3 only, SK4 only, Expansion Pack #1 only rules?
Or will there be a separate rulebook for any SK publication?

Basically, if the 'system' of SK is expanded further, it will replicate the problems of old SL. Maybe without as many contradictions. But it will become increasingly unwieldy, which in part will defeat its purpose. Eventually, there will be a call for a 'combined' ASLSKRB incorporating all SK rules. But at that time at the latest, it will become obivous that SK is no longer the 'simple' approach it was intended and started out to be. Instead we would look easily at 50+ pages, which is nothing to digest in an evening and begin to play like the 12 pages of SK1.

In other words, SK could evolve into something neither fish nor meat. Not the complicated ASL but not the simple SK either. Possibly with numerous separate rulebooks. Numerous SK scenarios would become unbalanced if played with 'full' SK rules. SK players would have to switch rules-thinking depending on playing SK1, SK2, SK3, etc. - and that can be a PITA. Highly likely with an increasing number of SK products which will be out of print and not be reprinted in comparably short order like SK1-3. This, however, would sort of combine the worst of both worlds.

That said, of course, each SK player has always the option to 'stop' at any evolutionary step of SK and then switch to ASL - or not.

von Marwitz

 

[Kijug]

But only if PTO is in effect. And shooting a quick glance at it, the Concealment rules of SK are much shorter than those in ASL. So still a big difference.

IMHO Concealment and Bypass alone make ASL and SK fundamentally different in the way they play.
Despite the SK rules not contradicting the ASL rules (maybe with very few EXCs).

And there is another point:

Even with 'only' SK1-4 published, you now already need several 'rulebooks' to play SK if you want to play 'full SK' (there is some irony to that expression...). Concealement is only covered in the SK4 rulebook. But in the SK4 rulebook, you don't have notes for non-US, non-Japanese ordnance to name an example.

What if a scenario pack is published?

Are the designers required to adhere to SK1 only, SK2 only, SK3 only, SK4 only, Expansion Pack #1 only rules?
Or will there be a separate rulebook for any SK publication?

Basically, if the 'system' of SK is expanded further, it will replicate the problems of old SL. Maybe without as many contradictions. But it will become increasingly unwieldy, which in part will defeat its purpose. Eventually, there will be a call for a 'combined' ASLSKRB incorporating all SK rules. But at that time at the latest, it will become obivous that SK is no longer the 'simple' approach it was intended and started out to be. Instead we would look easily at 50+ pages, which is nothing to digest in an evening and begin to play like the 12 pages of SK1.

In other words, SK could evolve into something neither fish nor meat. Not the complicated ASL but not the simple SK either. Possibly with numerous separate rulebooks. Numerous SK scenarios would become unbalanced if played with 'full' SK rules. SK players would have to switch rules-thinking depending on playing SK1, SK2, SK3, etc. - and that can be a PITA. Highly likely with an increasing number of SK products which will be out of print and not be reprinted in comparably short order like SK1-3. This, however, would sort of combine the worst of both worlds.

That said, of course, each SK player has always the option to 'stop' at any evolutionary step of SK and then switch to ASL - or not.

von Marwitz

I agree. Make more scenarios targeted for SK1 or SK2 or SK3, it do not keep expanding the “system” because, yes, it will become like good ‘ol SL. If folks are serious and really enjoy the game, they should consider ASL. SL wasn’t meant to be its own ”game system”.