DINANT

jrv

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How many players are going to spend how much time poring through those rules pages wondering "why the fuck are these buildings a different colour to those buildings"?
Since you are a half-empty thinker, then of course it will look that way. If you were a half-full thinker, you would relish the time you spent enjoying the carefully-crafted rules anticipating the many, many hours of enjoyment you will get from playing the module.

JR
 

Gunner Scott

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I really dont give a shit anymore about ASL, just play whats available and have fun.

To heck with "artistic freedom". How many players are going to spend how much time poring through those rules pages wondering "why the heck are these buildings a different colour to those buildings"? (And make no mistake, we're not talking a "subtle shading difference" here.) What a mind-bogglingly stupid idea (whoever's idea it was). If you're going to do idiotic things like that then FFS explain your idiocy to the people who are buying the module. For stupidity it's right up there with "let's not include overlays so people can't play the scenarios that require those overlays"* and "let's give some counters special-coloured IDs and not explain why". I love the CdG2 package overall but honestly MMP must have collectively been drunk or high during some important planning meetings for this one. Proof-readers might have to take some of the blame, too, for apparently not asking what are clearly very obvious questions (unless the questions were asked and they were ignored).

* [which of course is combined with the Tapio-worthy idea of "they're essential, so we'll charge extra for them -- and here's the best bit -- we don't even know when we'll bother to make them available"]
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Carln0130

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To heck with "artistic freedom". How many players are going to spend how much time poring through those rules pages wondering "why the heck are these buildings a different colour to those buildings"? (And make no mistake, we're not talking a "subtle shading difference" here.) What a mind-bogglingly stupid idea (whoever's idea it was). If you're going to do idiotic things like that then FFS explain your idiocy to the people who are buying the module. For stupidity it's right up there with "let's not include overlays so people can't play the scenarios that require those overlays"* and "let's give some counters special-coloured IDs and not explain why". I love the CdG2 package overall but honestly MMP must have collectively been drunk or high during some important planning meetings for this one. Proof-readers might have to take some of the blame, too, for apparently not asking what are clearly very obvious questions (unless the questions were asked and they were ignored).

* [which of course is combined with the Tapio-worthy idea of "they're essential, so we'll charge extra for them -- and here's the best bit -- we don't even know when we'll bother to make them available"]
Bruce, sticking up for MMP on the map piece here. They pored over that map and had Nadir make many changes. That one wasn't changed because we all thought it obvious they couldn't possibly be anything else. Literally dozens of people looked at those maps in both playtest form and now. You are the only one to mention it. The only one since people have been receiving it over the past month and a half or so.

Now because I wanted to be fair about this. I went back to the original playtest version and all the wooden buildings are indeed one color. So I suspect those buildings were missed when switching over to the new shading. That they were not changed was either missed or noted as not being noteworthy. No more, no less. MMP may decide it merits errata, but it does not merit charges of stupidity by a long shot. It is not any different than any other piece of errata in that sense.

I'll inform MMP in the event they are not following this conversation and if they think an errata should be added, I'm sure they will put one out.

As for the overlays, not involved in the decision cycle on that, so nothing to add or subtract there. I get why people are pissed on that point, and I suspect it may have had to do with bumping the price even higher, but I am merely speculating.

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jrv

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You are the only one to mention it.
I did not notice it until Bruce called attention to it, but I only looked at the map cursorily. Having had my attention drawn to it, I did expect there was some rule that covered the difference because there seemed to be a clear visual distinction between the two kinds. In ASL map depiction matters (most of the time), and I am not surprised someone called it out. I think Bruce's reaction was perhaps melodramatic, but he has a point.

JR
 

Carln0130

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I did not notice it until Bruce called attention to it, but I only looked at the map cursorily. Having had my attention drawn to it, I did expect there was some rule that covered the difference because there seemed to be a clear visual distinction between the two kinds. In ASL map depiction matters (most of the time), and I am not surprised someone called it out. I think Bruce's reaction was perhaps melodramatic, but he has a point.

JR
Per MMP BTW, they are wood. I still remember purple haze KGP. I think this was a lot less jolting.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Shades of brown aside, are issues like counters for the Free French / Vichy or the lack of overlays deeply held secret that MMP somehow sprung on "innocent" buyers?

How do buyers (as intelligent as ASL players) divest themselves completely of the responsibility of that decision?
 

Gunner Scott

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If you go to BGG, you can download the CDG overlays:
 

Carln0130

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Shades of brown aside, are issues like counters for the Free French / Vichy or the lack of overlays deeply held secret that MMP somehow sprung on "innocent" buyers?

How do buyers (as intelligent as ASL players) divest themselves completely of the responsibility of that decision?
Can't help with that one Jackson. Hopefully MMP can pop in and address. The Dinant stuff Dan, Nadir and I can help with.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Can't help with that one Jackson. Hopefully MMP can pop in and address. The Dinant stuff Dan, Nadir and I can help with.
No help needed here at all mate. I am just wondering about buyers who act all surprised and devastated when issues about the Vichy & the Free French counters and the Overlays weren't secrets.
 

Michael Dorosh

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How many players are going to spend how much time poring through those rules pages wondering "why ... are these buildings a different colour to those buildings"?
My guess is exactly one.

Anyone remember board 8, the original board 8, with the "grey-brown" buildings that no one could be sure if they were wood or stone? We just went with what made sense - the riverside 'castle' was the same colour, and castles are made of stone, so we declared everything was stone barring SSR. No problem.

I remember getting my Rogue Board with the red masses on it. The accompanying scenario pack specified by SSR what that red was, and we knew that for DYO we'd have to designate it as either Level 0 or Level 1.

No confusion, no outrage. The only person who would be confused by the colour brown being a wooden building would be someone looking to be confused.
 

jrv

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Per MMP BTW, they are wood.
I have no doubt. My point is that if you make clearly differentiated things on the map that are really the same it is perhaps a courtesy to your users know. So in Dinant there are new depictions for greenhouses, but they are covered by rule [DN2.26]. Likewise the citadel de Dinant has a different depiction but is also covered by rule [DN2.22]. There is also (apparently) a tennis court which is covered by a rule that says it is nothing special, just open ground [DN2.65] (what is it with MMP and tennis courts? An inside joke?). When there is a clear variation in buildings it's not unreasonable to expect that there is either a rule explaining the difference or an explanation that there isn't a difference. It's not a fatal problem however. It's explained, and everyone moves on.

JR
 
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jrv

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The lock gates on the lock (hex nn29) are drawn the wrong way. The Meuse at Dinant flows south to north, and the lock gates should open toward the south (upstream) and when closed have the pointy end to the south. These are the current locks:

12391

This is not a fatal map problem either. But it may have been a bad idea to suggest that I had to look over the maps carefully.

JR
 
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Carln0130

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I have no doubt. My point is that if you make clearly differentiated things on the map that are really the same it is perhaps a courtesy to your users know. So in Dinant there are new depictions for greenhouses, but they are covered by rule [DN2.26]. Likewise the citadel de Dinant has a different depiction but is also covered by rule [DN2.22]. There is also (apparently) a tennis court which is covered by a rule that says it is nothing special, just open ground [DN2.65] (what is it with MMP and tennis courts? An inside joke?). When there is a clear variation in buildings it's not unreasonable to expect that there is either a rule explaining the difference or an explanation that there isn't a difference. It's not a fatal problem however. It's explained, and everyone moves on.

JR
I follow what your saying.
 

Carln0130

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The lock gates on the lock (hex nn29) are drawn the wrong way. The Meuse at Dinant flows south to north, and the lock gates should open toward the south (upstream) and when closed have the pointy end to the south. These are the current locks:

View attachment 12391

This is not a fatal map problem either. But it may have been a bad idea to suggest that I had to look over the maps carefully.

JR
As the footnotes state, they were closed during the battle and did not stretch all the way across at the time of the battle. So it has no impact on play.
 

Robin Reeve

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Anyone remember board 8, the original board 8, with the "grey-brown" buildings that no one could be sure if they were wood or stone? We just went with what made sense - the riverside 'castle' was the same colour, and castles are made of stone, so we declared everything was stone barring SSR. No problem.
Well, the castle and other undefined buildings have been made wooden on the new SK style board 8.
I was astonished by that choice when I noticed it.
 

boylermaker

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I am just wondering about buyers who act all surprised and devastated when issues about the Vichy & the Free French counters and the Overlays weren't secrets.
I think I'm one of these people, although I won't claim to speak for everybody you have in mind.

I totally agree with your post upstream that the responsibility is with the buyer if the product doesn't live up to their expectations, especially in the age of the internet, when product images and reviews abound!

But I think it is worth pointing out that for years (decades?) MMP has had a really sterling reputation for customer service. You didn't NEED to carefully pore over contents of the module you wanted to buy and cross-reference them with the contents of previous editions to figure out whether you were getting everything. You could always rely on MMP that if they made any changes to the contents of the module, all the changes would be customer-friendly, only ever adding content, never removing it. As you and David Hume say, anybody who assumed that this would always be the case in the future is responsible for their disappointment with the overlays. For me, this is MMPs only big blunder, so it doesn't change my opinion of them much.

But if this sort of thing continues to happen in future products, then downgrading MMP from a "company I can blindly trust" to a "company whose products I thoroughly research to make sure I know exactly what is and isn't in them" will be a bummer. And I think something worth taking about on this forum.
 

Robin Reeve

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Why dramatize?
MMP have done a wonderful job with CdG2.
Differenciating Vichy and Free French was an excellent idea.
Not speaking of the Dinant HASL.
I call that improvements and progress.
 

Gunner Scott

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I agree the counters are a nice improvement but was it really necessary to include Vichy and free french? Perhaps for the few counter collectors here, but the rest of us could probably have done without them and thus not make this module so freakin expensive.

Why dramatize?
MMP have done a wonderful job with CdG2.
Differenciating Vichy and Free French was an excellent idea.

I call that improvements and progress.
 
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