BG Counters 45: Skink(a), 6pdr Portee, & Bofors 37 AT:

[Vinnie]

60c Skink(a):
Tank AA, 20 mm Quad, Skink was a Canadian self-propelled anti-aircraft gun, developed in 1943-44, in response to a requirement from the First Canadian Army. Due to a lack of threat from the German Luftwaffe, the Skink was cancelled in 1944 after only 3 were built.
From 6 February to 11 March 1945, the Skink visited all but one of the Canadian armoured regiments - from Nijmegen to the Cleve area - frequently engaging in actual combat. All units found it to be a valuable asset. However no enemy aircraft presented itself to the Skink's guns and its main function was to flush out stubborn pockets of enemy infantry and force their surrender.
† Despite being a Canadian built vehicle, the Skink uses the modifiers for an American built vehicle.
† The MA is AA capable. This is signified by "MA:AA" on the counter.
† Make four TK DR when using the 20L column of the AP TK table; only one DR (firer's choice) is used. This is signified by "4 TK DR" on the counter.
See also British Vehicle Note R, BG

 

[Vinnie]

77a 6pdr Portee:
This represents a 3 ton lorry with an OQF 6 pounder (British Ordnance Note 6) mounted en portee as per British Ordnace )Note B.
† This truck starts each scenario Inherently carrying (not towing) a 57L AT. While thusly mounted, the 57L serves as the Portees MA and is treated as a NT Gun [EXC: Depending on the position of the gun, firing is retricted. See below]. The gunshield provides no protection for the Portee, but Direct (only) Fire attacks vs it which emanate from within its CA, and which do not destroy it, affect its crew as if they were manning a non-Emplaced, non-vehicular AT.
The crew (see British Vehicle Note H) Abandons and re-renters the 6pdr Portee as per D5.4-D5.43. However, the gun can be unloaded only after a crew counter in the Gun's location has spent its entire MF allotment as unpinned, non-entrenched Good Order Infantry in a declared attempt (which makes it subject to Hazardous Movement) to do so. If this has been accomplished, the gun is considered unloaded and takes counter form in limbered mode, and it, the crew and Portee (which is flipped over to its unarmed side) become TI. The crew and gun are loaded aboard the Portee using the same principles; however, a gun may not be (un)loaded onto/from any Portee that has expended MP in the same MPh. A voluntarily Abandoned 6pdr Portee retains an Inherent Driver.
† If the Gun is mounted Facing Forward, the vehicle may not Bounding First Fire as indicated by "*No BndFF" on the counter.
† If the Gun is mounted rear facing it may only fire through the rear v=VCA as indicated by "*MA:RVCA only" on the counter.
See also British Vehicle Note H, N & BG

 

[Vinnie]

4a Bofors 37 AT:
A number of Swedish m/34 (Axis Minor Ordnance Note 2) ordered by Anglo-Egyptian Sudan were adopted as Ordnance QF 37 mm Mk I. It was used until sufficient numbers of the 2 pounder guns were available.

See also British Ordnance Note N, R, & BG

 

[Eagle4ty]

View attachment 9243View attachment 9244View attachment 9245
77a 6pdr Portee:
This represents a 3 ton lorry with an OQF 6 pounder (British Ordnance Note 6) mounted en portee as per British Ordnace )Note B.
† This truck starts each scenario Inherently carrying (not towing) a 57L AT. While thusly mounted, the 57L serves as the Portees MA and is treated as a NT Gun [EXC: Depending on the position of the gun, firing is retricted. See below]. The gunshield provides no protection for the Portee, but Direct (only) Fire attacks vs it which emanate from within its CA, and which do not destroy it, affect its crew as if they were manning a non-Emplaced, non-vehicular AT.
The crew (see British Vehicle Note H) Abandons and re-renters the 6pdr Portee as per D5.4-D5.43. However, the gun can be unloaded only after a crew counter in the Gun's location has spent its entire MF allotment as unpinned, non-entrenched Good Order Infantry in a declared attempt (which makes it subject to Hazardous Movement) to do so. If this has been accomplished, the gun is considered unloaded and takes counter form in limbered mode, and it, the crew and Portee (which is flipped over to its unarmed side) become TI. The crew and gun are loaded aboard the Portee using the same principles; however, a gun may not be (un)loaded onto/from any Portee that has expended MP in the same MPh. A voluntarily Abandoned 6pdr Portee retains an Inherent Driver.
† If the Gun is mounted Facing Forward, the vehicle may not Bounding First Fire as indicated by "*No BndFF" on the counter.
† If the Gun is mounted rear facing it may only fire through the rear v=VCA as indicated by "*MA:RVCA only" on the counter.
See also British Vehicle Note H, N & BG

I do not know if restating the (un)loading and crew protection status of the Portee Gun is necessary as a simple reference to C10.5-.54 would suffice for most of the verbage.

 

[Justiciar]

20mm thus...."Skink" each time...

3-ton (-)...inherently...vehicle's MA (not Portees which there is no ASL term for and it would be Portee's anyway and this is an ugly word) EXC ALWAYS!!! in italics, you should know this by now, I gigged you on it once already. No ice cream for you. Vehicle should replace Portee at every opportunity 6-pdr.

37mm thus...2-pounder

 

[Vinnie]

20mm thus...."Skink" each time...

3-ton (-)...inherently...vehicle's MA (not Portees which there is no ASL term for and it would be Portee's anyway and this is an ugly word) EXC ALWAYS!!! in italics, you should know this by now, I gigged you on it once already. No ice cream for you. Vehicle should replace Portee at every opportunity 6-pdr.

37mm thus...2-pounder

60c. Skink(a): Tank AA, 20 mm Quad, "Skink" was a Canadian self-propelled anti-aircraft gun, developed in 1943-44, in response to a requirement from the First Canadian Army. Due to a lack of threat from the German Luftwaffe, the "Skink" was cancelled in 1944 after only 3 were built. From 6 February to 11 March 1945, the Skink visited all but one of the Canadian armoured regiments - from Nijmegen to the Cleve area - frequently engaging in actual combat. All units found it to be a valuable asset. However no enemy aircraft presented itself to the "Skink's" guns and its main function was to flush out stubborn pockets of enemy infantry and force their surrender. † Despite being a Canadian built vehicle, the "Skink" uses the modifiers for an American built vehicle. † The MA is AA capable. This is signified by "MA:AA" on the counter. † Make four TK DR when using the 20L column of the AP TK table; only one DR (firer's choice) is used. This is signified by "4 TK DR" on the counter. See also British Vehicle Note R, BG

77a. 6pdr Portee: This represents a 3 ton lorry with an OQF 6-pounder (British Ordnance Note 6) mounted en portee as per British Ordnance Note B. † This truck starts each scenario Inherently carrying (not towing) a 57L AT. While thusly mounted, the 57L serves as the vehicle's MA and is treated as a NT Gun [EXC: Depending on the position of the gun, firing is restricted. See below]. The gunshield provides no protection for the vehicle, but Direct (only) Fire attacks vs it which emanate from within its CA, and which do not destroy it, affect its crew as if they were manning a non-Emplaced, non-vehicular AT. The crew (see British Vehicle Note H) Abandons and re-renters the 6pdr Portee as per D5.4-D5.43. However, the gun can be unloaded only after a crew counter in the Gun's location has spent its entire MF allotment as unpinned, non-entrenched Good Order Infantry in a declared attempt (which makes it subject to Hazardous Movement) to do so. If this has been accomplished, the gun is considered unloaded and takes counter form in limbered mode, and it, the crew and vehicle (which is flipped over to its unarmed side) become TI. The crew and gun are loaded aboard the Portee using the same principles; however, a gun may not be (un)loaded onto/from any Portee that has expended MP in the same MPh. A voluntarily Abandoned 6pdr Portee retains an Inherent Driver. † If the Gun is mounted Facing Forward, the vehicle may not Bounding First Fire as indicated by "*No BndFF" on the counter. † If the Gun is mounted rear facing it may only fire through the rear v=VCA as indicated by "*MA:RVCA only" on the counter. See also British Vehicle Note H, N & BG

 

[Vinnie]

4a. Bofors 37 AT: A number of Swedish m/34 (Axis Minor Ordnance Note 2) ordered by Anglo-Egyptian Sudan were adopted as Ordnance QF 37mm Mk I. It was used until sufficient numbers of the 2-pounder guns were available. See also British Ordnance Note N, R, & BG

 

[Paul M. Weir]

As a historical aside: The LRDG took over some of the Bofors 37mm AT after they had been replaced by 2lbr AT in normal line units. One account I read (an Osprey Book, I think) said that their ammo load was 50/50 AP and HE. The HE was to deal with various softskins and bunkers encountered during their raids. Line units of the Beda Fomm and earlier period would have had plenty of HE fire from supporting artillery, so HE would have been much less critical. So you might allow an SSR giving them HE for LRDG use. How long the LRDG used the 37mm as opposed to the 2lbr is another matter and also I have no idea how accurate the report of HE availability is.

 

[Vinnie]

As a historical aside: The LRDG took over some of the Bofors 37mm AT after they had been replaced by 2lbr AT in normal line units. One account I read (an Osprey Book, I think) said that their ammo load was 50/50 AP and HE. The HE was to deal with various softskins and bunkers encountered during their raids. Line units of the Beda Fomm and earlier period would have had plenty of HE fire from supporting artillery, so HE would have been much less critical. So you might allow an SSR giving them HE for LRDG use. How long the LRDG used the 37mm as opposed to the 2lbr is another matter and also I have no idea how accurate the report of HE availability is.

That's good to know. Add it as an additional note? "Following thrir replacement with 2-pounders in line units, tgese guns were transfered to the LRDG. If the Bofors 37 AT is being used by the LRDG, the gun has HE9."

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Other than spelling "Following thrir replacement with 2-pounders in line units, tgese guns were transfered to the LRDG. If the Bofors 37 AT is being used by the LRDG, the gun has HE9." I'd be happy with that, even HE10 or unlimited HE. If the report is accurate and equal amounts of AP and HE were the norm, then either AP9 & HE9 or both unlimited AP & HE would seem a bit more logical. In the end, it's not something I am going to get worked over about.

 

[Vinnie]

Other than spelling "Following thrir replacement with 2-pounders in line units, tgese guns were transfered to the LRDG. If the Bofors 37 AT is being used by the LRDG, the gun has HE9." I'd be happy with that, even HE10 or unlimited HE. If the report is accurate and equal amounts of AP and HE were the norm, then either AP9 & HE9 or both unlimited AP & HE would seem a bit more logical. In the end, it's not something I am going to get worked over about.

Given I'd not come across this in my research, it's worth adding to the notes for others to use.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Damn, had to dig out that book from under a pile of a hundred or so Osprey Books. New Vanguard 32, Long Range Desert Group, Robin Jenner, David List and Mike Badrocke. 1999, ISBN: 9781855329584

Illustration C1 blurb page 45 gives the carrier as originally a Chervolet WB, later a Ford F30. The F30 with CMP No. 11 cab carried 45 rounds HE and 45 of AP for the Bofors 37mm. When ammo ran out the Bofors were replaced by Italian Cannone-Mitragliera da 20/60 modello 35. On pages 12-13 the TO&E outlines are given and have 1 x 37mm armed truck amongst 11 in a Patrol. That was the official kit out from Dec '40 to Autumn '41. The March '42 To&E has a pair of Breda 20mm cannon but no Bofors 37mm.

45 rounds is well above the 35 rounds total of all types limit for a B(#) in ASL. 45 rounds each HE and AP would definitely be unlimited HE and AP.

The Bofors definitely had a HE round, the "37 mm sk ptr m/34 sgr m/43" with 95g of HE filler, about 4 times the HE content of the German 37mm PaK 35/36 HE shell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_37_mm_anti-tank_gun

Why ASL's 37mm Bofors is noted as having no HE, I have no idea. Maybe most users did not issue HE for doctrinal or economic reasons, IE their main purpose is to open tin cans, we have MGs and mortars to combat infantry and HE takes away available space from AP in the truck/wagon? As Sudan was the source for the Bofors, maybe they thought that HE was a good idea, given the lack of much armour in that neck of the woods? I can only speculate.

How I remember the LRDG usage after nearly 20 years, I don't know, something ... peculiar ... with my brain!

 

[asloser]

Why ASL's 37mm Bofors is noted as having no HE, I have no idea.

I have one source for Finland which states that during winter war 1939-1940 Finns did not have HE for Bofors ATG but it was available during the continuation war of 1941-44. Also Finns employed the Bofors 37L as an infantry gun from 1942 onwards- so perhaps HE was not available until 1941-42 timeframe by which time Finns were about the last army using it in larger scale? Also Finland is closer to Sweden where the gun was designed so it might well be Finns had a better access to various ammunition types available for this gun ? This is just speculation based on what I know of the Finnish use.

 

[asloser]

And m43- couldiy mean a round issued in 1943 HE?

 

[Paul M. Weir]

And m43- couldiy mean a round issued in 1943 HE?

A very good point. The Wiki article lists a AP-T, APHE-T, APDS-T, HE, P-AT-T and P-HE, P being practice. https://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS1.htm lists "AP-T, APCBC-T, APHE, APHE-T, HE-T, HE, phosphorous (rare)". There is an extra APCBC-T and HE-T round in the latter. I suspect that not all types were remembered never mind variations within each category.

Given that Bofors produce the Bofors 40mm AA which had an excellent HE round (the shell later used in Hungarian 40mm tank/AT guns), I would be surprised if they didn't have a decent 37mm HE round for their AT gun right from the start. Maybe the m43 was the final improved version of their HE round? That HE shell definitely had the highest HE content of any 37mm tank/AT gun that I can think of.

Given the details about ammo supply from the LRDG book, I'm fairly convinced that there was a HE round available prior to '43. Another consideration is that the same gun was fitted to the Polish 7TPjw, Dutch Panserwagen M.36, M.38 and M.39 and the Finnish 37mm armed Vickers 6 ton and all of those have unlimited HE. I'm beginning to think that HE issue was more doctrinal than physical availability: tanks deal with all targets, AT guns only with AFV (in theory).

The British issued very, very small amounts of (unreliable?) HE to their 2lbr AT guns early in the war, but none to their tanks. So I can see them issuing little or none when the 37mm was a substitute for their 2lbr in line units. The LRDG would have had different needs and likely sneered at doctrine or standard issuance.

 

[Gordon]

I love the image of sneering LRDG soldiers. I bet they sneered a lot.

 

[asloser]

.....Finnish 37mm armed Vickers 6 ton and all of those have unlimited HE.

This tank only has AP, this was extrapolated from the fact that the Finnish version of Bofors 37L ATG did not have HE in 1940 when this one saw combat.

But your point remains valid, I am just nitpicking here.

 

[asloser]

In the end, it's not something I am going to get worked over about.

After this discussion I will wait with great interest the day Paul really gets worked over about anything.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

After this discussion I will wait with great interest the day Paul really gets worked over about anything.

At my age little gets my dander up. The closest ASL thing was CH giving the T-54 the armour of a Sherman. Things like the SU-57 having the Soviet 57LL (ZiS-2) rather than its US 57L (M1) are just irritants.

A counter to my mellowing reaction to many things is that I have less patience with discussions like "What if the Germans did/didn't do X or had Y in service (earlier), they could have won." about history or White Supremacy in current events.

So though milder reactions, less patience with stupidity

 

[Paul M. Weir]

This tank only has AP, this was extrapolated from the fact that the Finnish version of Bofors 37L ATG did not have HE in 1940 when this one saw combat.

But your point remains valid, I am just nitpicking here.

You have an excellent point, nitpicking or not. Unlike your subsequent post, I had to think this through. First I have no problem with your item about Finnish Bofors 37mm AT guns having no AP. I suspect that would also apply to the Poles, but that's only a suspicion, I really don't know.

The question remains whether their Bofors 37mm tank guns had HE. They only had 26 Vickers 6 Ton vs 98-114 Bofors AT at the start of the Winter War, so it might be possible that sufficient HE for the tanks was bought. Like the some other nations the idea might have been that AT guns were only for use against armour while tanks were to be used against targets both hard and soft. So initially HE for tanks but not for AT guns, maybe?

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/finland/vickers-6-ton-in-finnish-service/ mentions that one of the reasons that the Bofors 37mm was chosen was "This gun was perfect for Finnish use, having an effective high explosive shell, as well as a good armor piercing one capable of defeating the vast majority of tanks in service during the late 30s and early 40s."

I suspect that you are most likely right about no HE for the 6 Ton. However due to my nitpicking nature, I can't totally rule out HE. Again an overactive and pedantic imagination.