Residual on VTT TH/TK?

jrv

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Does a VTT TH/TK shot leave residual if it is made with HE or HEAT ammunition or MG? Obviously per A8.25, a hit needs to be made in order to leave residual.

A8.2 said:
When a unit is attacked by Defensive First Fire/Subsequent First Fire/FPF, the target Location in which the attacks is resolved (even if in Bypass) is marked with a Residual FP counter equal to half (up to a maximum of 12 after adjustmen per 8.26; FRD) of the highest IFT FP column used for that attack. If the attack includes a To Kill DR vs a vehicle, Residual FP is created in the same manner [EXC: If AP (unless fired by a MG), ATR, APCR, or APDS was used, or if a Dud (C7.35) resulted, no Residual FP is created].
JR
 

Binchois

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The D.8 EXample says that a MG would leave Residual in this case:

...Because the HMG was firing as ordnance, the 7-4-7 could not firegroup with it. If the HMG had lost ROF, its attack would leave 1 Residual FP in X1 (reduced from 2 Residual due to the +1 Hindrance), but the Collateral Attack itself does not leave Residual FP.​


With that, I would say the other ammo would as well.
 

jrv

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Very good. I had this come up in a recent game. A Chinese MMG fired TK, and it should have left one Residual (the manning infantry was CX). My opponent objected, and I couldn't convince him based on A8.2.

JR
 

Justiciar

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Makes that PF/PSK attack and kill vs an AFV not such a good hiding place for follow on Infantry...

Interesting that HEAT can leave such residual..
 

Justiciar

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Very good. I had this come up in a recent game. A Chinese MMG fired TK, and it should have left one Residual (the manning infantry was CX). My opponent objected, and I couldn't convince him based on A8.2.

JR
You could not convince him when MG is explicitly mentioned in A8.2 as leaving residual?!
 

jrv

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Makes that PF/PSK attack and kill vs an AFV not such a good hiding place for follow on Infantry...

Interesting that HEAT can leave such residual..
PF don't leave residual per C13.31, but PSK do. I will have to remember that.

JR
 

jrv

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You could not convince him when MG is explicitly mentioned in A8.2 as leaving residual?!
A8.2 has at least eight layers of negated negations in the sentence where the matter is covered. I think it's clear enough if you read it with no distractions, but at the time it was late in the game, and my opponent wanted to argue it. For a one FP residual I wasn't that interested. If I knew about the .8B EX that would have convinced him I think.

JR
 
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Justiciar

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A8.2 has at least eight layers of negated negations in the sentence where the matter is covered. I think it's clear enough if you read it with no distractions, but at the time it was late in the game, and my opponent wanted to argue it. For a one FP residual I wasn't that interested. If I knew about the .8B EX that would have convinced him I think.

JR
But I find that first EXC at 8.2 very convincing..."unless fired by MG"....
 

jrv

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But I find that first EXC at 8.2 very convincing..."unless fired by MG"....
So do I. My opponent wanted to argue it more. It was late in the day, and the point was not worth arguing. Sometimes even when you feel you are right you just have to move on.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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Makes that PF/PSK attack and kill vs an AFV not such a good hiding place for follow on Infantry...

Interesting that HEAT can leave such residual..
High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT), why would one question the reasoning that it would leave RFP? The round is a point initiating, base detonating one, yes directing the forward energy of the round toward a specific point in a conical fashion to produce a penetration of impacted materials; However, the rearward (backblast if you will) blast of the exploding projectile will expel shrapnel from the disintegrating round as well as material thrown out from the initial point of impact. Our rule of thumb (in armor) was to forego engaging hardened targets with HEAT ammo if friendly infantry were danger close (within 60m) to the target unless they were sufficiently under protection (e.g in buildings, dug-in, etc.) and then only if they knew we were engaging with such ammo. RFP is certainly called for in this instance as ASL represents one to several such rounds impacting the target or missing but still detonating within the target area over the period of flex time of the turn.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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IIRC, the Residual FP of HEAT would be based on the IFT column to the left of the same caliber HE.
 

jrv

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IIRC, the Residual FP of HEAT would be based on the IFT column to the left of the same caliber HE.
For HEAT that doesn't have a define HE equivalency, yes per the C8.31 table. Some weapons do have explicit HE FP (e.g. PSK, BAZ), and they would use that instead. The PF, PFk and H#[9] weapons do not leave residual per that table.

JR
 

jrv

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High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT), why would one question the reasoning that it would leave RFP? The round is a point initiating, base detonating one, yes directing the forward energy of the round toward a specific point in a conical fashion to produce a penetration of impacted materials; However, the rearward (backblast if you will) blast of the exploding projectile will expel shrapnel from the disintegrating round as well as material thrown out from the initial point of impact. Our rule of thumb (in armor) was to forego engaging hardened targets with HEAT ammo if friendly infantry were danger close (within 60m) to the target unless they were sufficiently under protection (e.g in buildings, dug-in, etc.) and then only if they knew we were engaging with such ammo. RFP is certainly called for in this instance as ASL represents one to several such rounds impacting the target or missing but still detonating within the target area over the period of flex time of the turn.
While not disagreeing with you about physical effects, per chapter A footnote 12 Residual FP is not only about physical effects but can also include "the discomfiting effects of nearby fire—even the very sounds of battle." So the "boom" that HEAT makes may be enough to make vulnerable personnel reconsider their decision to move in that direction. That said, if I saw a tank just ahead of me burst into flame it would make me check my devotion to the cause, so it's not clear to me why AP doesn't leave residual. Given that, it's just as plausible that HEAT also would not leave residual FP, except the rulebook says it does.

JR
 

Paul M. Weir

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so it's not clear to me why AP doesn't leave residual.
I suggest that it's a combination of things. First an AP kill does not always result in a burning wreck. Second the impact usually does not produce splinters outside the AFV, indeed a "bounce" can produce more.

With regard to the first, a common WW2 practice upon seeing a stationary enemy AFV was to put one or two in it "just to be sure". That practice was one reason that AFV kill reports were regularly grossly inflated.

In the end, this is ASL, not the real world, thank the sky pixies.
 

Justiciar

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High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT), why would one question the reasoning that it would leave RFP? The round is a point initiating, base detonating one, yes directing the forward energy of the round toward a specific point in a conical fashion to produce a penetration of impacted materials; However, the rearward (backblast if you will) blast of the exploding projectile will expel shrapnel from the disintegrating round as well as material thrown out from the initial point of impact. Our rule of thumb (in armor) was to forego engaging hardened targets with HEAT ammo if friendly infantry were danger close (within 60m) to the target unless they were sufficiently under protection (e.g in buildings, dug-in, etc.) and then only if they knew we were engaging with such ammo. RFP is certainly called for in this instance as ASL represents one to several such rounds impacting the target or missing but still detonating within the target area over the period of flex time of the turn.
Not to take on the expert. It is not the round...it is the effect of the round (all the crap as a result of a good hit). Whereas say HE the round itself is also creating the residual...besides the effect of that round (all the crap as a result of a good hit). Plasma is ephemeral bits of metal and crap are less so. That was my thought. I grant you that a TH DR represents more than one round...so it is more than one HEAT plasma effect being placed on that target location. But a missis no HEAT worthy of residual...unless you are in Korea...where I got that effect to appear W.8A. ;)
 

jrv

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But a missis no HEAT worthy of residual...unless you are in Korea...where I got that effect to appear W.8A. ;)
The BAZ50 and Type 51 both attack at one FP if not against wall/building/rubble/pillbox [W.8A], which will leave no Residual FP.

JR
 
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