Bridge LOS and Movement

commissar1969

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Gentlemen:

Please see illustration:

8176

Does a Unit at DD5 have an LOS to a Unit IN CC5 (i.e. under the bridge)? Why / why not?

Can a Unit in DD5 Move/Advance beneath the Bridge? Why / why not?

Thanks in advance!

Chuck Hammond (aka "Commissar1969")
 

Binchois

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There is LOS between DD5 and CC5. Perhaps surprisingly, there is no hindrance from the bridge:

B6.2 All bridges block LOS between units on the bridge and units beneath the bridge. Otherwise, a bridge does not block LOS. However, a non-pontoon bridge does Hinder any LOS drawn through it between units which are at the same level as the Bridge or units only one of which is below the level of the Bridge (unless that LOS is traced only through the road depiction of the Bridge).​

Movement between the bridge and the gully beneath can only be accomplished by Scaling or Climbing (B11.4). Why? Because B6.4 says so!

B6.4 Entrance of/exit from a bridge Location can occur only by crossing a road hexside on that bridge [EXC: by Scaling (23.424) and using a Climbing counter in the bridge hex].​
 
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commissar1969

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There is LOS between DD5 and CC5. Perhaps surprisingly, there is no hindrance from the bridge:

B6.2 All bridges block LOS between units on the bridge and units beneath the bridge. Otherwise, a bridge does not block LOS. However, a non-pontoon bridge does Hinder any LOS drawn through it between units which are at the same level as the Bridge or units only one of which is below the level of the Bridge (unless that LOS is traced only through the road depiction of the Bridge).​

Movement between the bridge and the gully beneath can only be accomplished by Scaling or Climbing (B11.4). Why? Because B6.4 says so!

B6.4 Entrance of/exit from a bridge Location can occur only by crossing a road hexside on that bridge [EXC: by Scaling (23.424) and using a Climbing counter in the bridge hex].​
Thanks for this, Binchois. However, I don't think you understood my second question. B6.4 is talking about going from to / from the bridge location IN THE BRIDGE HEX. I'm talking about going directly from DD5 (NOT a bridge hex) to UNDER the bridge. Got any info on that?

Thanks,

Chuck
 

Binchois

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Thanks for this, Binchois. However, I don't think you understood my second question. B6.4 is talking about going from to / from the bridge location IN THE BRIDGE HEX. I'm talking about going directly from DD5 (NOT a bridge hex) to UNDER the bridge. Got any info on that?

Thanks,

Chuck
Sorry! Your're right - I misunderstood. The bridge does not prevent a unit from entering the gully directly.
 

commissar1969

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Sorry! Your're right - I misunderstood. The bridge does not prevent a unit from entering the gully directly.
That is so weird. I could have sworn it did. Oh, well. Faulty memory. Comes with age. Pretty soon, I'll be like Trump, claiming my dad was born in Germany! lol
 

Magpie

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You can't be underneath the bridge at ground level, ie crest status of the stream.
You can only be in the stream/gully and so at -1.
So you can't be seen in the example given.
 

Binchois

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You can't be underneath the bridge at ground level, ie crest status of the stream.
You can only be in the stream/gully and so at -1.
So you can't be seen in the example given.
Besides that the RB says the opposite is true, this has already been confirmed by Q&A:

Q. B6.2 Does a unit under a bridge counter have a LOS/LOF to a unit on the road adjacent to and accessing the bridge counter? (i.e. ASL RB page B6.2 example ... a unit under the bridge in CC5 attacking a unit in DD5.)​

A. YES a LOS exists.​
You're right that Crest status beneath a Bridge is impermissible (B20.9), but LOS does exist and hindrance doesn't apply (as stated in the above post#2).
 

Magpie

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My mistake, I thought it was the German firing at the Russian once it was under the bridge.

Which when I look at it again would also be legal anyway?

Pretty sure you can't go DD5 to under the bridge though?
 
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Magpie

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What else would go mean?

Is there a specific rule that allows that move? I looked but couldn't see one.
 

commissar1969

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You can't be underneath the bridge at ground level, ie crest status of the stream.
You can only be in the stream/gully and so at -1.
So you can't be seen in the example given.

Wait a second. Yes I can, right? If I'm in DD5, I'm Adjaccent, so I can see into the Depression. Why wouldn't I be able to?
 

jrv

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What else would go mean?

Is there a specific rule that allows that move? I looked but couldn't see one.
There is no rule that denies the movement. Units are allowed to enter a depression under a bridge. Once that is allowed, there would have to be rule denying entrance across a road hexside, and there isn't one AFAIK. Given that there is a location ON the bridge, that location could be entered from anywhere too except for the fact that B6.4 limits such movement to across the road hexsides or by scaling.

JR
 

Magpie

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My thought (and my gaming buddies from, granted, a couple of decades ago) was that the inability to gain crest status in a bridge hex meant that you couldn't cross the crest to get to the depression.
Of course, that non-crest restriction could just mean you can't line an entire squad along the crest underneath the bridge (well you could but some would only see one way, some the other and the rest nothing at all) which may be leads to it being a valid movement path.
 

jrv

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My thought (and my gaming buddies from, granted, a couple of decades ago) was that the inability to gain crest status in a bridge hex meant that you couldn't cross the crest to get to the depression.
Of course, that non-crest restriction could just mean you can't line an entire squad along the crest underneath the bridge (well you could but some would only see one way, some the other and the rest nothing at all) which may be leads to it being a valid movement path.
My belief is that you can't enter crest in a bridge hex because the rules would be too hard to write. Can a unit in crest fire at a unit on the bridge? What are the DRM? What bridge DRM apply to the units in crest if they are in crest on the far side of the bridge? And so on. Just disallow it. But I wasn't there when the rules were written.

JR
 

Magpie

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My belief is that you can't enter crest in a bridge hex because the rules would be too hard to write. Can a unit in crest fire at a unit on the bridge? What are the DRM? What bridge DRM apply to the units in crest if they are in crest on the far side of the bridge? And so on. Just disallow it. But I wasn't there when the rules were written.

JR
Yes I agree and the difficulties I outlined in my reply add to that. Having said that though ASL doesn't really just disallow things because they are in the too hard basket so I feel it is reasonable to suggest that crest status isn't allowed in a bridge hex mainly because there is a bloody great bridge sitting on the crest.

The thinking in my group extended from that was to say that as you couldn't ever be in crest status under a bridge, then you also couldn't enter a depression from a bridge road hexside as when you enter a depression you have to cross the crest and therefore, even if only momentarily, you are in a crest status. That is supported by the allowance for a unit to reduce its MP expenditure upon entering the hex to remain in Crest status.
 

Larry

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(unless that LOS is traced only through the road depiction of the Bridge).
Do you read this as LOS between DD5 and CC5(-1) is neither hindered nor blocked? I read it as blocked by the road/bridge.
 

jrv

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Do you read this as LOS between DD5 and CC5(-1) is neither hindered nor blocked? I read it as blocked by the road/bridge.
Roads never block LOS. Bridges only block LOS from the bridge location to below [B6.2]. You got rules references where you read it?

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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Do you read this as LOS between DD5 and CC5(-1) is neither hindered nor blocked? I read it as blocked by the road/bridge.
That LOS is clear. Terrain in the target's hex in general (there are some exceptions, bypass e.g.) do not block the LOS to the target.
 
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