AREA : a small info

bprobst

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
1,437
Location
Melbourne, Australia
First name
Bruce
Country
llAustralia
Bruno still has all results of all tournaments that have been played in 2017-2018
I'll bet you $10,000 dollars that he doesn't.

I'd be quite surprised to discover, for instance, that the AREA ratings have ever included the results of any Australian tournament. I'd be astonished to learn that the results for every other tournament played anywhere in the world, no matter where or when, have all been submitted to AREA.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the results only exist for those tournaments where the TD bothered to think about submitting the results to AREA. Given that there has been no AREA at all for several years (it would seem), who would even bother submitting them any more? Who even bothers to look up their own (hopelessly out-of-date) rating any more?
 

bprobst

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
1,437
Location
Melbourne, Australia
First name
Bruce
Country
llAustralia
And it has been to the benefit of the whole ASL community for many years.
Err ... has it? The whole ASL community? Every single ASL player, everywhere in the world?

I think you are grossly overestimating the value of the system, even it were functioning perfectly and completely, 100% up-to-date -- and of course neither of those things are true.

Personally, I'm racking my brain to think of any reason why I would consider AREA to be a "benefit" to me. What am I missing?
 

ecz

Partisan Captain
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Messages
4,430
Reaction score
599
Location
Italy
Country
llItaly
Bruce
I have forgotten to add after "Bruno still has all results of all tournaments that have been played in 2017-2018" the following sentence:
"that TDs have kindly sent to him" .

Bruno can only add the results have been sent to his email. I guess this is true for everyone.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I think that the ideal solution would be a join between ROAR and AREA, an automatic system in which the calculation of the AREA coefficient takes place through the games registered by the players itself. In this manner the workload of the system administrator would be much much smaller than manually loading all the results of all the ASL tournaments in the world.
AREA serves a different set of games. AREA takes games from tournaments only, I believe. ROAR accepts any old game.

JR
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,357
Reaction score
10,205
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
Err ... has it? The whole ASL community? Every single ASL player, everywhere in the world?

I think you are grossly overestimating the value of the system, even it were functioning perfectly and completely, 100% up-to-date -- and of course neither of those things are true.

Personally, I'm racking my brain to think of any reason why I would consider AREA to be a "benefit" to me. What am I missing?
Well, Bruce, I know that you see no personal benefit in AREA as you have mentioned this before. So not the whole ASL community.

Maybe it is fair to say that you might be underestimating the value of AREA to the ASL community as I might be overestimating it.

von Marwitz
 

synicbast

ASLOK Junkie
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
1,485
Reaction score
232
Location
Wellington New Zealand
First name
Peter
Country
llNew Zealand
AREA is about rating players involved in organised, controlled settings. It does not include friendly games. It is designed to facilitate pairings and seeding in Tournaments. ROAR is purely about recording game playings of scenarios at every level. One of the reasons the ASL AREA rating moved to this was to avoid ratings bloat and selective matching that can and despite our best will, does occur when there are minimal controls.
 

synicbast

ASLOK Junkie
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
1,485
Reaction score
232
Location
Wellington New Zealand
First name
Peter
Country
llNew Zealand
I'd be quite surprised to discover, for instance, that the AREA ratings have ever included the results of any Australian tournament.
Colour you surprised then.

Australian land -based/organised tournaments loaded on AREA

Cancon 2015, 2016, 2017
Junobear 2010, 2014,2015, 2016, 2017
Deathwish 2015, 2016
 

bprobst

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
1,437
Location
Melbourne, Australia
First name
Bruce
Country
llAustralia
Maybe it is fair to say that you might be underestimating the value of AREA to the ASL community as I might be overestimating it.
Maybe, but for me to underestimate its value I would first have to understand what its value is supposed to be. Nobody has yet managed to explain that elusive quality.

I would want to look up my AREA rating because I am interested in ... what, exactly?

I would want to look up someone else's AREA rating because I am interested in ... what, exactly?

Whatever it is that I'm interested in, does the absence of an unknown number of years of results from an individual's AREA rating affect the value of that rating? Remember, it's not just the last couple of year's worth of missing data -- it's all of the missing data for that individual, representing a literally unknown and unknowable (to a complete stranger) degree of tournament participation that has not been recorded.

Colour you surprised then.
Well, I am quite surprised by that information, yes. I would observe, however, that it makes for over twenty years of missing data for pretty much every player who's ever participated in an Australian tournament. (It's quite a good thing then that the AREA ratings for those individuals has never been put to any useful purpose.)

To me, AREA smells like a sports fanatic's obsession with statistics -- which is fine, except that in this case the statistics are rendered meaningless by a total lack of relevant data. An organised sport has very well defined parameters, and any individual player's participation in the sport is well-documented. Under those conditions the statistics can be made meaningful. I don't see how the equivalent can ever be true for AREA.
 

fredkors

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
117
Reaction score
36
Location
Valeggio sul Mincio
Country
llItaly
Bruce
I have forgotten to add after "Bruno still has all results of all tournaments that have been played in 2017-2018" the following sentence:
"that TDs have kindly sent to him" .

Bruno can only add the results have been sent to his email. I guess this is true for everyone.
Enrico, returning here after a couple of years, I had forgotten the forum bickering level.

I think I'll take another break... ?
 

ecz

Partisan Captain
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Messages
4,430
Reaction score
599
Location
Italy
Country
llItaly
I have sent an email to Bruno to let him know that I would like to take over the ASL AREA maintenance, along with Gary Bartlett and David Garvin. I am waiting for a response.
great!
 

Khill

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
2,188
Reaction score
792
Location
MAINE
Country
llIceland
I have sent an email to Bruno to let him know that I would like to take over the ASL AREA maintenance, along with Gary Bartlett and David Garvin. I am waiting for a response.

AREA is a great resource and it is nice to see people willing to step up to help keep it going
 

Aaron Cleavin

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
3,094
Reaction score
555
Location
Sydney
Country
llAustralia
Yes Darryl Lundy tries this with ASL Ratings a few years ago, got to 16k games in but then db went down and the host had no back up, so all was lost

The code for GLICKO is trivial and there are Java and Python implmentations.

The website GUI for game entry and lists of reference information is more time consuming.

Darryl had done it in Ruby on Rails, that or Angular/JS or React/JS would seem the best paths, with a simple RDBMS backend.
 

pipiol

Member
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
270
Reaction score
66
Location
Madrid
Country
llSpain
I would be very happy to take the dataset, calculate new ratings, and keep them updated. I can even design a simple excel form to introduce tournament results, so that updating is more or less automatic.

Unfortunately, I don't have any knowledge of web programming, so I would need the help of someone to translate all the calculations into a nice website...

[sorry, it seems I can't even see the last posts in a thread :) Glad to see people taking the work, please contact me if you need any help!]
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
That is correct. Only tournament games reported by TDs to AREA.

von Marwitz
It is not just "reported by TDs". I have self-reported my playings from WOs and ASLOKs over the years. I am pretty certain Perry does not submit WO PIS sheets, and the same for Bret. That is an ungodly amount of data for these to compile and report. Bruno does acknowledge submissions of the kind I described b/c they are from official tourneys. Plus the ASL community is not rife with cheaters and false reporters. Plus ones OPFOR can see that yes game X vs Y has been correctly submitted.
So I hope going forward whoever takes over likewise accepts self-reports of this kind, perhaps only from these two extremely large tourneys if need be.
 

Michael R

Minor Hero
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
4,621
Reaction score
4,162
Location
La Belle Province
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Bruno Nitrosso replied to me that he has received several offers to take on the ASL AREA task. He is formulating a response, and thinking about what exactly to give.
 
Top