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CTKnudsen

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Col Glantz has gotten much worse at this over time. Typically, I find his earlier works ( 2005 and previous) to be both readable, easily digested, and still chock full of factual information. Only since the period when his work was being criticized for taking a negative slant towards the existing primary sources already well known and documented, has he changed his writing form and style to one of presenting just one solid fact after another, without any real analysis of how he views those facts to have impacted the history of events. Try reading:

View attachment 6172

or similar era works and you will get a better feel for Glantz as a historian.

As for the work I asked, it borders on the period when he switched writing styles and I have not yet seen a copy of it - but was wondering if perhaps anyone knew for certain if it fell into the former writing style or the latter from Glantz.

Regards Jon
This. My wife and I (we both have history degrees) had a lively debate about how to categorize this sort of historical writing. I am a big fan of Glantz, but I agree that his later stuff is a lot of hard slogging. I have the same issue with Jason Mark, to be honest. I cannot fault their amazing abilities at research and fact-finding, and they are incredible narrative historians in the sense that they present an unbelievable collection of accurate ultra-detailed information, usually organized chronologically. This is fantastic material for those of us designing ASL scenarios, but to my mind it sometimes lacks a certain amount of analysis; there is no thesis that is presented, really, no collection of fact assembled to prove an argument.

Now I am not saying that what they are doing is not "history", both men have done infinitely more than I, and are rightfully respected. And I am sure there are many on this forum who have more historian chops than I who will perhaps energetically disagree with me. But I kinda like my history to be a bit more analytical - it at least keeps the reader thinking a bit more.
 

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I have the same issue with Jason Mark, to be honest.
I find Mr. Mark's books to read like a translation of unit diaries. I respect his research abilities and he has progressed from his style in his earliest books, but I still feel that I would like more synthesis and interpretation and context than he typically provides.
 

djohannsen

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The overall definitive work on North Vietnam's Air War is :
Thank you for the recommendation - I've put it in my cart at Amazon. I will tackle Launch the Intruders first, though. I was a grunt in the USMC in the late '80s and developed a deep love the A-6E TRAM at that time (it's ability to deliver a huge payload, with precision, in all weather, endeared the aircraft to us grunts). Combine this with the fact that my brother-in-law sat in the right-hand seat of an Intruder with VMA(AW)-533 and I really want to read a treatment of A-6s in Vietnam.
 

witchbottles

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This. My wife and I (we both have history degrees) had a lively debate about how to categorize this sort of historical writing. I am a big fan of Glantz, but I agree that his later stuff is a lot of hard slogging. I have the same issue with Jason Mark, to be honest. I cannot fault their amazing abilities at research and fact-finding, and they are incredible narrative historians in the sense that they present an unbelievable collection of accurate ultra-detailed information, usually organized chronologically. This is fantastic material for those of us designing ASL scenarios, but to my mind it sometimes lacks a certain amount of analysis; there is no thesis that is presented, really, no collection of fact assembled to prove an argument.

Now I am not saying that what they are doing is not "history", both men have done infinitely more than I, and are rightfully respected. And I am sure there are many on this forum who have more historian chops than I who will perhaps energetically disagree with me. But I kinda like my history to be a bit more analytical - it at least keeps the reader thinking a bit more.
There is a general concept within academics that simply identifying source materials and regurgitating their information provided is not enough to warrant as a serious discourse in the subject being written on. The work must also "seek to advance the general knowledge base" of that discipline. If a work fails in this category, it is entirely (and rightly) criticized by fellow scholars in the same discipline (much as Glantz found himself around 2002-2006 period.) It is not enough to simply inform the world of the new source material, it needs to be analyzed and the author must take a position in doing so, as to how it fits or counters the existing primary source material and the prevailing body of literature in that area of research.

Thus, Glantz (and Marks to a lesser extent) both fell under the "exclusionary" theory of modern historical research, accepting new primary source information as a replacement, rather than an addition, to the historical knowledge data as it is now known. This they were criticized for, and rather than modify their view on the exclusion of previous sources with possible bias, simply reverted to a present all sources, old and new, then leave the reader to draw their own inferences.
This works for an encyclopedia, but not for an author.
Just my $.02. YMMV,

Jon H
 

witchbottles

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Thank you for the recommendation - I've put it in my cart at Amazon. I will tackle Launch the Intruders first, though. I was a grunt in the USMC in the late '80s and developed a deep love the A-6E TRAM at that time (it's ability to deliver a huge payload, with precision, in all weather, endeared the aircraft to us grunts). Combine this with the fact that my brother-in-law sat in the right-hand seat of an Intruder with VMA(AW)-533 and I really want to read a treatment of A-6s in Vietnam.
The Intruder is one hell of an airframe, they were (rightly) the most appreciated sight we ever had when they arrived on station at the Berm just before we re-crossed to counterattack into Al-Khafjii. Nothing like all those stores racks with live BB's on them to give you a warm/fuzzy, even for the helo guys. :).

KRL, Jon H
 

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counterattack into Al-Khafjii
Ah, you were at Khafji - I assume you were LAVs(?). I was with Heavy Guns 3/3. We accompanied the Saudi National Guard in the initial attempt to recapture the town. My mission (with one section of my heavy girls) was to grab the Recon Marines, however, the attack never made it into the town. I was damn proud of my Marines, though - did some good shooting. Semper Fi, sir, and a (belated) Happy Birthday!
 

witchbottles

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Ah, you were at Khafji - I assume you were LAVs(?). I was with Heavy Guns 3/3. We accompanied the Saudi National Guard in the initial attempt to recapture the town. My mission (with one section of my heavy girls) was to grab the Recon Marines, however, the attack never made it into the town. I was damn proud of my Marines, though - did some good shooting. Semper Fi, sir, and a (belated) Happy Birthday!
HMH-461 We lifted your guns before doing the assault lift to take the road to the air control tower. :) Nice to meet you, again :D
 

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I realize that I haven't posted here in quite some time. Well, a lot of books have gone down range during this time. I won't look too far back, but mention a couple of my most recent, as I get inspired to learn GMT's Downtown. First, kind of a pair, Thud Ridge and When Thunder Rolled. Both are held in very high regard, and I will add my voice to the chorus; the reputation of these books is very well-deserved. If you want to see Rolling Thunder through the eyes of the USAF pilots who flew the missions, neither of these books will disappoint. I think that I may have enjoyed When Thunder Rolled (WTR) a bit more, though these books are very different in the focus and writing (so a bit of apples and oranges here). Though these books cover the same period, WTR is written by a new Lt. getting his 100 missions, and is more of a personal memoir. Thud Ridge was written by a Colonel who flew with a voice recorder in the cockpit, and the emphasis is more a series of very detailed recounting of several missions. Both books are wonderful and they complement each other well.

Finally, in the same vein, I read On Yankee Station. This book is a fine starting point for the naval airwar over Vietnam, but if you already have some familiarity with the organization and tactics employed and the threats faced, this one won't have much new for you. To get a little more info on the naval airwar, I have Launch the Intruders cued up (right after I finish Toll's wonderful Six Frigates).
I would also recommend 'The Hunter Killers' by Dan Hampton. A very interesting account of the development and history of the USAF Wild Weasel squadrons during the Vietnam war. Includes a vivid account of the first F-4 shoot down by a SAM, which accelerated the implementation of these specialized squadrons.

Very readable and not at all 'Glantz-like' as the author is a retired weasel pilot who served in the post-Vietnam USAF.
 

witchbottles

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I would also recommend 'The Hunter Killers' by Dan Hampton. A very interesting account of the development and history of the USAF Wild Weasel squadrons during the Vietnam war. Includes a vivid account of the first F-4 shoot down by a SAM, which accelerated the implementation of these specialized squadrons.

Very readable and not at all 'Glantz-like' as the author is a retired weasel pilot who served in the post-Vietnam USAF.
this F-4 shootdown is depicted in the Downtown scenario "Respect".
 

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Nice to meet you, again
I know that we've done this dance before, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed (hell, the USMC recognized me as grunt material) and everyone here is new to me (I've met very few folks beyond my local club). At some point, maybe I'll start recognizing people (or maybe not :oops:).

Thanks for more reading options!
 

witchbottles

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Yes!
Mig Master is one of the few aviation books which I find myself re-reading on occasion.
That F-8 was an incredible airframe - Northrop tried to re-capture the "dogfighter" era with the F-20 Tigershark. Accepted by DoD , rejected by all services, and relegated to a single order of 29 airframes. Pity, it was a 21st century updated "Fate". with its M61 Vulcan, variable geometry thrust nozzles, a huge airbrake for near instant stall-out and twin GE F-101 Turbofan afterburners for incredible speed and acceleration.

I've only ever worked on a single RF-8 airframe, and that was to put it together again at the 3rd MAW museum, with a pair of MGYSgts who had worked on them back in the day during Rolling Thunder. It was still an impressive airframe,even in 1989.
 

witchbottles

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I know that we've done this dance before, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed (hell, the USMC recognized me as grunt material) and everyone here is new to me (I've met very few folks beyond my local club). At some point, maybe I'll start recognizing people (or maybe not :oops:).

Thanks for more reading options!
All good. I left more than a few brain cells somewhere in the haze of Pattaya Beach, Singapore, Kowloon District, Phu-Ket, Darwin's Red light district, Beale Street on a Saturday night in Memphis, and a ton of others.........

Worst beer ever:

Burgermeister Brau - sold in Entebbe, Uganda - warm of course. Tastes like elephant piss...

Still, we're Marines, we improvise, adapt and overcome. So you would not believe how many airframe fires we had that required using the 4 pound CO2 fire bottles on board to put out, while in Entebbe. :). 2 squirts and it chilled right up into something almost drinkable ( for a Marine, anyway). :D :D
 

Michael Dorosh

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Anyways, feel free to share your reading recommendations as well, some of us would love to hear all about it.
Wilhelm-Velten+Vom-Kugelbaum-zur-Handgranate-Geschichte-der-65-Infanterie-Division.jpg


Reading this one now, it's the history of the German 65th Infantry Division. They were essentially organized as a 700-series division raised in 1942 for coastal defence duty. They served in Belgium and the Netherlands and then just before the Italian defection were sent to Italy, where they spent the rest of the war.

This was written in the early 70s from surviving documents and veterans' interviews. The division was not a distinguished one, and it's interesting to get the perspectives of one of the many nameless horse-drawn infantry units that made up the majority of the Army. Most of the popular histories seem to focus on the mechanized and armoured formations, which by their nature were 'elite' troops, and then there were the elite of the elite like Panzer Lehr, GD, and LAH.

This division was nothing like that and there is a good mix of personal accounts and high-level stuff. There are for all intents and purposes no maps included, but I'm translating this for the local reenactment unit and providing illustrations as I go, which is making it easier.

65 in italyjpg.jpg

It is a high-level view, so not a lot of ASL scenario ideas. I am just coming to the Anzio fighting, and their only real combat so far was the Sangro, where bombers, fighters, artillery and naval guns all made short work of the division, which was effectively wiped out during the fight to advance on Orsogna.

What is very interesting though is that the excellent New Zealand war histories are all online, and so I'm flipping back and forth between this book, and the histories of the individual New Zealand battalions that took the 65th Division on at Orsogna. The differing perspectives of the Germans and the New Zealanders are quite fascinating. (As an aside, the American, Canadian and New Zealand official histories are all available for free online, I've yet to see the British histories made available in the same way - a real shame). For example, this extract from the 24th NZ Battalion history is written a little differently than the German historian approaches things:
"The 65th Infantry Division opposing the New Zealanders in this battle of the Sangro consisted largely of Poles with no great enthusiasm for the cause in which they fought, or of young Germans incompletely trained. It held a front of nearly 15 miles with two regiments only; its transport was horse drawn, and most of its equipment second-rate. ‘The enemy’, writes Major Aked, ‘were not up to the... usual German standard we had met in Africa, and very many were found skulking in camouflaged positions on the crest [of Marabella]. They were scared stiff. One of them could have easily wiped out [A] Coy HQ. Right on the crest was a conical shaped erection. While waiting for my exploiting platoons to return I went out to this to investigate. I found it to be branches, and pulling a few aside, found myself looking into the muzzle of a spandau, complete with gunner.’"
Some interesting personalities discussed briefly in the book, and I'm expanding my research on them via the also excellent lexicon der Wehrmacht site. The 65th Infantry Division had three commanders in its first year of existence - General Bömers from July 1942 to Jan 1943, Willi Rupprecht from Jan to May 1943, and Gustav Heistermann von Ziehlberg, who took over in May and led the division in its first combat assignments in Italy in the autumn, where it was practically wiped out in the Sangro fighting. Ziehlberg was wounded there in November 1943 and relinquished command. One of his first orders, while still in the Netherlands, was to change the divisional tactical sign from a picture of a tree, to the first letter of his own last name! He had started the war as a lieutenant-colonel in the regular army, commanded an infantry regiment in early 1943 after a long spell of staff duty before taking command of the 65th. He lost his left arm on the Sangro in an Allied air raid, and after recovery, commanded another division during the collapse of Army Group Center in Russia, where he got the Knight's Cross. On the same day as he cured his throatache, 27 July 1944, he was ordered to arrest his chief of staff (Ia) and bring him to Berlin. Instead, he questioned his chief of staff personally about the Bomb Plot, and gave the man the opportunity to hand over his duties. Instead, his chief of staff deserted to a known gap in the lines seeking suicide, but was wounded and captured. It looked bad for von Ziehlberg, who was tried in September 1944 and sentenced to seven months imprisonment. He underwent a second trial in October, was sentenced to death, and was executed by firing squad in February 1945.

Also interesting to look at the claims of war crimes associated with the division. They are naturally not mentioned in the divisional history, but I inadvertently found a website, in Italian, devoted to all the war crimes committed in Italy, broken down by unit. So finding this book a great springboard into other sources. Most valuable are the occasional personal vignettes drawn from veterans of the division. A couple chosen at random:

In one place the author uses a term which I now understand was common soldier slang - he refers to the British as "our comrades from the other field post office." Kind of a gentlemanly, sporting term one would expect from the British rather than the Germans.

On New Year's Eve 1943/44, following their thrashing on the Sangro, almost all the division's units were traveling to the Adriatic coast. The rumours here were comforting, promising that once loaded the units would be relocated to the north for refitting. Characteristic of the mood and the experiences of our soldiers during these days is the following report of a former member of Headquarters Company of Grenadier Regiment 145 (mounted platoon). Love some of the details, like the fact their horses were all named.

"On 29 December, following our deployment at Orsogna, we were relieved by a unit of 334 Infanterie Division. According to the orders, we set off for a small village called Ari (8km north of Orsogna). Everyone tried to reach the specified goal on their own. In addition to the blanket and shelter-quarter, I had to bring along an Italian machine gun. With painstaking attention to detail, during the first few days with Kampfgruppe Drost I learned how the beast was loaded, secured and taken apart. Two comrades dragged a bulky wooden box with ammunition. Soon I met some of the Landser of our 14th Company, travelling north with a horse-drawn anti-tank gun. One of them drove a cow he had tied to the gun. He described it as "supplemental rations on self-propelled gun." After handing over some mashed cigarettes, I was allowed to put my MG and other belongings on the gun limber and even sit on the gun when it was travelling downhill.
"After travelling off-road, we reached the narrow country lane to Ari, where our platoon was gathering. The horses we left behind before our deployment were now brought to Pianella, 30km away, probably for lack of food. The handful of buildings in Ari were damaged by air attacks, abandoned by their residents, and contained absolutely nothing edible. On 30 December we started from Ari via Chieti to Pianella at 16:00 hrs. Shortly after Ari, a truck took me a short way. In the immediate vicinity of Chieti Scalo (Chieti’s railway station) I was able to sleep on a straw bed in a chapel for a few hours. After an exhausting walk the next day we arrived at our horses in Pianella at 10:00hrs.

"Drizzling snow fell during the day, turning to sleet in the late afternoon. At the same time an icy cold wind was blowing. When we boarded our horses at dusk to ride to the Adriatic Sea, together with a comrade I was tasked as a security escort for our vehicle. The mounted platoon quickly disappeared on the road to Caprara towards the Adriatic. While we did everything we could to shovel the roadway for our vehicle, high snowdrifts formed along the village road. At our request, a villager willingly tried, but in vain, to attach his two oxen before our draft horses. I advised the two coachmen to wait for better weather with their draft horses “Nanuck” and “Karin” and set out with my comrade to reach the platoon on the back of our saddle horses. The heavy snowstorm took away almost all our visibility. Although we rode side by side, it was barely possible for us to communicate because of the strong wind. Whenever the horses scented a house on the side of the road, they could only be persuaded to go on with difficulty.

"Only when my horse had lost both front horseshoes at 22:00hrs did we decide to ask for lodgings in a group of houses (Villa Franca). The inhabitants kindly took us in. Our good horses “Toni” and “Ulan” were housed in a dry shed. We were treated to a meal of red wine, cornbread and salami. Soon after we fell asleep in the farmhouse kitchen. We had thought that the local Italians might have greeted us with hostility or even attack us in our sleep. We had not had experiences with partisans before. In one-on-one relationship the Italians were always friendly and helpful. In the fourth year of the war, of course, they longed for peace and quiet. The capitulation had not given them the desired end of the war. Rather, they only now learned to know the war in their own country in all its cruelty. Who could have blamed them if they liked us as human beings, but as soldiers wished for our quick defeat? An Italian expressed to me what many of his compatriots thought at that time: "If the German soldiers didn’t want to play the invincible heroes in a hopeless situation, we would have long since had peace."

"There was almost no wind as we climbed back on our chariots on New Year's morning to reach our destination on the Adriatic, Silve Marina, via Cappelle-Montesilvano. Only in the mountains was there still snow. In the now peaceful countryside, knocked over telegraph poles and uprooted trees were testimony to the storm of the previous night. We reached the coastal road at Montesilvano and suddenly heard whinnying neighs in the middle of the town. From the window of a corner house a well-known face looked at us: a Rappwallach our platoon called “Unfug” (Mischief). Was our platoon here? We learned that panzergrenadiers had captured the horse early in the morning. Along with some other horses, which ended up disappearing, the black horse had become timid of the storm and snow during the night march along the Adriatic, and had escaped his master. The panzergrenadiers gladly gave us the horse. What would a member of a fully motorized troop in Italy do with a horse? Horsemeat is eaten only in extreme times of need!

"When we reached Silvi after another 5 km ride along the coast, we found our comrades with their horses in a cinema. Although the building had a large hole in the roof that could have come from the shell of a British naval gun, it was pleasantly warm in the hall. In the middle of the vast room burned a large fire on which the riders dried their belongings and equipment. Broken cinema chairs provided the fuel. One of my comrades reported that the commander of our former Kampfgruppe, Hauptmann Drost, and a few companions, had sought shelter from the storm with Italian civilians during the night."
orsogna map.jpg
 
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djohannsen

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Worst beer ever:
Got a Cobra Gold once. I don't remember the brand of beer at all the dives in Pattaya and Bangkok, but I remember it being TERRIBLE! (I also had the joy of getting so sick that I thought that I was going to die - probably from eating fruit that Thai locals gave us in the field).

Anyway, I again apologize for being so obtuse - if I ever get a name and face to go with "witchbottles" that will probably help. Maybe I can make next year's ASLOk.
 

djohannsen

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I'm nearing the conclusion of a couple of books, so thought that I would post some very brief comments. The first item is Shelby Foote's masterful trilogy, “The Civil War.” I will simply declare that these books are some of the finest historical books that I have ever had the privilege to read. Foote's prose is utterly majestic and his scholarship is impeccable. In addition to a detailed accounting of the military events of the war, Foote always provides political and social and international context for all the events. In fact, the first one hundred and fifty pages, or so, is such a masterful account of the rise of Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln and of the climate of the times that I have ordered a book devoted to domestic US politics during the decade or so between the Mexican-American War and the Civil War. Foote displays a slight Southern bias (in my eyes), but is generally very insightful when assessing the merits of the leaders and their strategic/tactical considerations. If you ever find yourself with a six month to year-long stretch of your life where you have nothing to do, you would be incredibly well-served to pick up Foote's books and give them a serious reading.

Though I will sound a bit like a Pollyanna, the second book that I'm finishing has also been an absolute delight (though, for me, nothing compares to Foote's books) - namely, Ian Toll's “Six Frigates.” Though the primary focus of Toll's book is to tell the post-revolutionary history of the United States Navy through the famous six frigates (Chesapeake, Constitution, President, Congress, United States, and Constellation), the narrative is much more broad than this (though his descriptions of naval battles are riveting). The story of the Navy told in this book is essentially the story of US foreign relations during the Presidencies of Adams, Jefferson, Madison. Described herein are the Quasi War with France, the Barbary Pirates, and the War of 1812, set within the context of US domestic politics (the Federalists and Democratic-Republicans vastly differing visions of the limits of government authority). The prose makes for simply wonderful reading (despite my description, which may make things sound dry, the book is a “page turner”). This is another book where I am feeling ever more sad the closer that I get to the end – I am going to hate to see it end.
 

KhandidGamera

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Though I will sound a bit like a Pollyanna, the second book that I'm finishing has also been an absolute delight (though, for me, nothing compares to Foote's books) - namely, Ian Toll's “Six Frigates.” Though the primary focus of Toll's book is to tell the post-revolutionary history of the United States Navy through the famous six frigates (Chesapeake, Constitution, President, Congress, United States, and Constellation), the narrative is much more broad than this (though his descriptions of naval battles are riveting). The story of the Navy told in this book is essentially the story of US foreign relations during the Presidencies of Adams, Jefferson, Madison. Described herein are the Quasi War with France, the Barbary Pirates, and the War of 1812, set within the context of US domestic politics (the Federalists and Democratic-Republicans vastly differing visions of the limits of government authority). The prose makes for simply wonderful reading (despite my description, which may make things sound dry, the book is a “page turner”). This is another book where I am feeling ever more sad the closer that I get to the end – I am going to hate to see it end.
Read this several years back and consider it to be one of the more significant books I've ever read. The author uses the speech and language of the time to tell the story and highlights by doing so shows that this is before standardized spelling, Webster's dictionary and I think that bears on understanding how people talked and formed their thinking - literacy is more individualized. Think that better puts you back in the time and the story as well. I came away with the impression of a kind of one-two punch against the British - the Six Frigates made such an impression on them that they spent a lot of resources pinning them down, but the Americans conducted such an effective naval insurgency through their privateering that British had to come to a settlement for the War of 1812. As you say it covers a lot more ground than just the ships themselves because they were such a big project for the country at the time when it was still figuring things out - real good look at forming of the nation right after the revolution. There's a lot in there that touches on the schizophrenia of American participation in the larger world, but wanting to be isolationist too. The book does a good job of laying out how much of an effort it was to keep the ships operating effectively and maintained - they seemed to have a lot of down time. Seem to remember it covered the RN's problem of properly crewing its huge navy, which bore on combat effectiveness ship-to-ship - Americans coming out better on this because they weren't pressed. It was also striking how because the USN was so new and small, the impact of individual personalities, rivalries, and animosities was fairly significant.
 

Yuri0352

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Read this several years back and consider it to be one of the more significant books I've ever read. The author uses the speech and language of the time to tell the story and highlights by doing so shows that this is before standardized spelling, Webster's dictionary and I think that bears on understanding how people talked and formed their thinking - literacy is more individualized. Think that better puts you back in the time and the story as well. I came away with the impression of a kind of one-two punch against the British - the Six Frigates made such an impression on them that they spent a lot of resources pinning them down, but the Americans conducted such an effective naval insurgency through their privateering that British had to come to a settlement for the War of 1812. As you say it covers a lot more ground than just the ships themselves because they were such a big project for the country at the time when it was still figuring things out - real good look at forming of the nation right after the revolution. There's a lot in there that touches on the schizophrenia of American participation in the larger world, but wanting to be isolationist too. The book does a good job of laying out how much of an effort it was to keep the ships operating effectively and maintained - they seemed to have a lot of down time. Seem to remember it covered the RN's problem of properly crewing its huge navy, which bore on combat effectiveness ship-to-ship - Americans coming out better on this because they weren't pressed. It was also striking how because the USN was so new and small, the impact of individual personalities, rivalries, and animosities was fairly significant.
Thank you for the excellent review! I've heard of this book, now I have to add it to my reading list.
 
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