Next series of Civil War ASL modules now available for order at Critical Hit

[Bob Walters]

If you want to show born ASL in to ACE then I think you are looking at squads with values of 1-1-8 or there abouts.
Platoon move ent for most units and maybe a separate CC factor.
Terrain movement costs would be higher too as units get disrupted moving over the obstacle.
It's not a system that is ideal...
Alternatively you could use the idea of the system fire, movement phase interrupted by defensive fire etc.
The unit per counter would be a company or larger rather than the squad which would alter maps range etc.
It might be like ASL but not the same.

And possibly limiting fire to every other turn or maybe every third turn except for those rare units equipped with repeating rifles. One would also have to eliminate target acquisition. Firepower per unit would still be lower (say 2-4-7) although there could be a bonus for multiple unit volley fire. Facing would become important, indeed, it might be best to make the hexes somewhat smaller and have the squads form into rectangular company counters that would occupy two hexes. The new larger company counters would then reflect the "volley fire bonus" in the firepower factor shown on their front side. The company would also have a higher morale factor probably one higher. There would also have to be rules for formation and formation changes for company level units. At line vs. column. And any penalty for moving in the open would be eliminated. The ASL system would need many other system changes needed but this gets started.

 

[Sparky]

I believe the majority consensus around here is that ASL is not a simulation for any period.

As a game system, it should be able to grasp certain relations properly for a given period (for example the relation between fire and movement) while allowing for some more or less generous leeway to make it playable (the underrepresentation of OBA in ASL has been noted, for example).

In the latter regard, ASL cannot reflect within its game mechanisms adequately, what would be necessary for a proper ACW game IMHO.

von Marwitz

Yeah man perhaps simulation was not exactly the best choice of words on my part. Modeling perhaps would have been the better choice of words

 

[Sparky]

Fire/Movement relation in the form of -1 FFMO / -1 FFNAM have been mentioned. These are pretty much the most important and core modifiers that dominate how the game is played. Their effects cannot be "adapted" to ACW by merely scrapping FFNAM, for example.

funny you mention that. If Tapio rang me up right now and said hey Michael, all the booze, broads and blow you can handle if you can take ASL and bring it to the ACW. Of course I'd take it, for the challenge of course.

First thing I'd scrap would be the FFMO/FFNAM mods, as noted above one of the distinct differences between the wars is the abiliity to rapidly kill thus you could pull your inner Kevin Costner, and a good many real life leaders did in that war, and often did emerge without a scratch. And no, not having them does not suddenly make it 'not ASL'

The scary thing is, the more I get sucked into this, the more curious I get and the more apt I am to throw my money away on this CH concoction just to actually see what they did with it haha.

 

[61Davedumbass]

That would be an interesting project. Instead of a squad the Roman infantry would represent a Maniple. Judean counter attackers could be in mobs of variable strength. The artillery would all be standard first century Roman impedimenta and Zealot imitations. Scale might have to be halved, and the maps, depicting street and buildings of an ancient city, would be awesome.
Same ASL adaptation could be used for the destruction of Corinth during the 4th Macedonian war, the siege of Alexandria during the war between Anthony and Octavian, and the Siege of Alesia during the Gallic Wars.
Great suggestion.

Dude, the Siege of Masada's a must! Berserker Zealots, Elite Romans, the new CH Desert Mountain map... "Epiphany of Doom: Holy Land ASL". Can't wait for the "Kingdom of Heaven" Crusader Supplement...

 

[larrymarak]

Dude, the Siege of Masada's a must! Berserker Zealots, Elite Romans, the new CH Desert Mountain map... "Epiphany of Doom: Holy Land ASL". Can't wait for the "Kingdom of Heaven" Crusader Supplement...

If Agincourt ASLComp sells well, we could see these.

 

[larrymarak]

My point Bob, lost in the shuffle, and though Jazz had the inkling of what I was trying to provoke out of you all, but obviously didn't expect or appreciate having it turned back upon him and decided to go snarky, was asking precisely how ASL is incaptable as a simulation to the ACW. I can, and did, bring up whatever might be brought up to lack of realism and accurate modeling and throw it right back into the face of the game itself in the form of HASL. Doesn't make it not fun, but don't call it realistic either.

much of what you brought up was legit, but also could be handled with specific rules. Nothing you brought up (IMO as it seems prudent to mention) makes ASL (as a basic combat system) incomptible with ACW play. If there is a specific reason, by all means, bring it up. That is what interests me, much more than the CH game itself for if there is anything I love more than ASL and ww2 in general, it is the ACW. Thus I have a strong passion and interest in it and attempts to game it. I just don't think, no matter what CH did with it, it would be fun to play. However I do feel it is an interesting discussion to be had. The jury is still out IMO for this forum whether people are so ingrained in back slapping their buddies and playing for likes to actually think.

The way to make CWASL fun is to portray small portions of an action in scenarios of short duration. If you were to do Isandalwana ( so??.I'm lost here) you wouldn't enjoy running both Zulu horns against the British square. You'd want small segments of the human wave attack, and a CG where ammo availability drops unpredictably due to dumb-xxx supply sergeants. And the small segment is the way ACWASL scenarios are presented.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I'm still waiting for their Cromagnon vs Neanderthal pack.

If that sells well they might add a Homo Erectus expansion.

 

[larrymarak]

I'm still waiting for their Cromagnon vs Neanderthal pack.

If that sells well they might add a Homo Erectus expansion.

Remember metagaming's. "Sticks and Stones" micro-history game? Cro-Magnon hunting vs Bison and Mammoths.

 

[larrymarak]

Remember metagaming's. "Sticks and Stones" micro-history game? Cro-Magnon hunting vs Bison and Mammoths.

Part of their "Gentleman's Agreement" with MMP is not publishing new ASL chapters of course, but I could just see Chapter Paleo covering Mammoths, Mastodons, Dire Wolf's and Saber tooth Tigers as " vehicles for use in PASL (Paleolithic ASL) scenarios. There'd be a heavy emphasis on morale, rallying and hero ( berserker) status.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I would see the Neanderthals as 8-0-8, usable in CC only, with the Cromagnons as 4-1-7 (adjacent fire not doubled and in-hex fire only doubled, not trebled). A common opinion is that Neanderthal shoulders and arms were not good for throwing things.
SW:
Extra Heavy Spears (Ne only): Gives a -1 DRM to CC.
Atlatl (Cr only): Turns a Cr 4-1-7 into a 4-2-7 with normal doubling and trebling of FP at 1 and 0 hex ranges respectively.
Sling (Cr only): A 2-5 [2] SW. Firing a Sling incurs Hazardous Movement penalties and reduces the normal stacking limits to 2 squad equivalents.
Bow (Cr only): Only by SSR. Prior to scenario start the Cr player must pass a TCTC (Technology Change Task Check) dr and on a 1-2 gets 1 bow for every 10 squad equivalents (FRU). On a subsequent dr of 1 for each bow, the Cr player gets an early longbow, a 1-6 [1], on 2-6 the Cr player gets a short bow 2-3 [2].

Both Bows and Slings may use Spotted Fire and may fire on either the ITT or ATT table. Their long range fire is limited to only 50% (FRU) extra range.

 

[footsteps]

I would see the Neanderthals as 8-0-8, usable in CC only, with the Cromagnons as 4-1-7 (adjacent fire not doubled and in-hex fire only doubled, not trebled). A common opinion is that Neanderthal shoulders and arms were not good for throwing things.
SW:
Extra Heavy Spears (Ne only): Gives a -1 DRM to CC.
Atlatl (Cr only): Turns a Cr 4-1-7 into a 4-2-7 with normal doubling and trebling of FP at 1 and 0 hex ranges respectively.
Sling (Cr only): A 2-5 [2] SW. Firing a Sling incurs Hazardous Movement penalties and reduces the normal stacking limits to 2 squad equivalents.
Bow (Cr only): Only by SSR. Prior to scenario start the Cr player must pass a TCTC (Technology Change Task Check) dr and on a 1-2 gets 1 bow for every 10 squad equivalents (FRU). On a subsequent dr of 1 for each bow, the Cr player gets an early longbow, a 1-6 [1], on 2-6 the Cr player gets a short bow 2-3 [2].

Both Bows and Slings may use Spotted Fire and may fire on either the ITT or ATT table. Their long range fire is limited to only 50% (FRD) extra range.

What scares me is this makes sense!

 

[dlazov]

The supplement to this, which CH will charge you an updated (inflated) price will include AFV (Animal Fighting Vehicles) rules, and include 263 5/8 new and improved counters for Wooly Mammoths, Horned Antelopes and the vaunted Sabretooth Tigers. Rumor has it that they will also include the Black Sabretooth Tigers counters even though that is very controversial in the ASL community.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

What scares me is this makes sense!

Don't encourage me !

While my imagination is on a roll:

Homo Erectus (He) a 6-0-7, similar to Ne but with a basic MF of 5, lanky buggers but without the confidence that the Ne bulk gives, also cruder weapons.

Ne, He may always initiate HtH CC unless ambushed.
He suffer from a +1 to their Ambush dr if they Advance into a CC situation. They're not as bright.
Camp Follower: A female leader that acts like a Commissar. Nothing like being shamed by your woman.
No Cr, Ne will never surrender to a He. Possible cannibalism.
All sides may Kindle but with a +1 DRM (+2 for He), no matches or lighters around then.

Terrain:
No Roads exists, but Road depictions may be SSRed to be Paths. No Buildings exists but Building depictions may be SSRed to be huts. Printed shellholes exist but may never be created during a scenario/CG. No Bridges or Runways exist. All Walls are Hedges.
The only fortifications allowed are Wire (thorn bushes) and Panjis.

SW:
Mushrooms (Ne, Cr only): Makes any MMC and any 1 accompanying leader fanatic. A 'shroomed unit may go voluntary Berserk. Any such unit must use HtH in CC, gets a -1 DRM in CC and a -1 DRM to any Wound Severity dr ("it's only a flesh wound").
Bows: Bows are Crewed SW. Any Bows received come with a 127 Crew. (Forgot that in my last post, Duh!)

Playtesting <snigger!> is ongoing with regard to the Weed SW (Cr only). Something like once activated (turning the Weed counter over to it's "Smoked" side) halving FP, permanent CX status and like Mushrooms a -1 Wound Severity dr. The main upside is that no Smoked unit suffers DM status. I'm not sure if halving FP or a +1 to all combat (FP/CC) DR is the way to go.

Like you said it's scary that it makes sense. The really weird thing is that ASL suits the disorganise "tribal" combat better than anything from Bronze Age to WW1. No formed lines, little discipline, no training, just knots of men fed into the fray willy-nilly.

 

[dlazov]

CH just announced version 2.5 of Cromagnon vs Neanderthal Pack
Now includes a campaign game and a BONUS 8 more scenarios and Cave Complex Overlays and Underlays, now for the price of $99.99.

 

[larrymarak]

This HAS been a gas to read..Ty Bomba proved a most twenty years ago that if you take any game system, locate the areas where abstraction is intrinsic to the game, and then strip the muscles off the skeleton you can rebuild into a new iteration of the same system..Bomba in War Chess brought Chess up in time from the middle ages to a game of thermonuclear conflict.

 

[RRschultze]

Don't encourage me !

While my imagination is on a roll:

Homo Erectus (He) a 6-0-7, similar to Ne but with a basic MF of 5, lanky buggers but without the confidence that the Ne bulk gives, also cruder weapons.

Ne, He may always initiate HtH CC unless ambushed.
He suffer from a +1 to their Ambush dr if they Advance into a CC situation. They're not as bright.
Camp Follower: A female leader that acts like a Commissar. Nothing like being shamed by your woman.
No Cr, Ne will never surrender to a He. Possible cannibalism.
All sides may Kindle but with a +1 DRM (+2 for He), no matches or lighters around then.

Terrain:
No Roads exists, but Road depictions may be SSRed to be Paths. No Buildings exists but Building depictions may be SSRed to be huts. Printed shellholes exist but may never be created during a scenario/CG. No Bridges or Runways exist. All Walls are Hedges.
The only fortifications allowed are Wire (thorn bushes) and Panjis.

SW:
Mushrooms (Ne, Cr only): Makes any MMC and any 1 accompanying leader fanatic. A 'shroomed unit may go voluntary Berserk. Any such unit must use HtH in CC, gets a -1 DRM in CC and a -1 DRM to any Wound Severity dr ("it's only a flesh wound").
Bows: Bows are Crewed SW. Any Bows received come with a 127 Crew. (Forgot that in my last post, Duh!)

Playtesting <snigger!> is ongoing with regard to the Weed SW (Cr only). Something like once activated (turning the Weed counter over to it's "Smoked" side) halving FP, permanent CX status and like Mushrooms a -1 Wound Severity dr. The main upside is that no Smoked unit suffers DM status. I'm not sure if halving FP or a +1 to all combat (FP/CC) DR is the way to go.

Like you said it's scary that it makes sense. The really weird thing is that ASL suits the disorganise "tribal" combat better than anything from Bronze Age to WW1. No formed lines, little discipline, no training, just knots of men fed into the fray willy-nilly.

Looking forward to seeing the various countersets for this one!

 

[footsteps]

Atlatl (Cr only): Turns a Cr 4-1-7 into a 4-2-7 with normal doubling and trebling of FP at 1 and 0 hex ranges respectively.

I think this would be handled better with the Cr 4-1-7 being 1st Line and 4-2-7 being Elite.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I think this would be handled better with the Cr 4-1-7 being 1st Line and 4-2-7 being Elite.

I'm not sure that is what I would want. I don't envisage any "Elite" units in Cr vs Ne. While humans at that time would be much harder than now and would be trained in hunting and many strenuous and dangerous tasks, inter human warfare would be rare. They are just very tough civilians. The Atlatl as a SW can break or be transferred and its use is considered using a SW, so can't be combined with a Sling (2 SW preclude inherent FP for a squad thus the squad couldn't use its inherent FP, making the Atlatl as much use as tits on a bull).

While a Sling takes a lot of training, I am assuming that sling usage is trained from childhood. Most importantly they are easy to make. They are still used today by some shepherds to ward off animal attacks. You don't need much strength to practice, unlike a bow. Slingers have to be standing (Hazardous Movement) and need more space to swing ("Oh, sorry Ugh, the swelling will go down in a day!"), so the use of a sling by even a single HS is penalised by reducing the stacking limit to 2 (you can still overstack with the usual penalties, of course).

Bows in this universe, I assume to be a recent development, need a lot of training and require some still rare skill to make.

I'm still undecided about 2/G/C units. While some primitive societies honoured suicidal bravery, in others the mark of a good war leader was how many warriors he brought back alive. I suspect that early human groups would retreat after a beating rather than stay around in a weakened state for a last stand. We're more talking teenage gangs than SS.

 

[dlazov]

Woolly Monmouth Overrun?

 

[Futbol]

there is also a Pelloponnesian War module in the works, rules for javelins and shields are included