Tater
Elder Member
Can units outside the PB (same hex) use small arms vs enemy units inside the PB?
Hi TaterCan units outside the PB (same hex) use small arms vs enemy units inside the PB?
Tater,B30.1 says the Pillbox hex is not in the Pillbox CA
So any attack against the Pillbox Location from the Pillbox hex must be against the NCA of the Pillbox
As per B30.113, Small arms fire vs a pillbox is NA through its NCA
But with a normal pillbox, reciprocity does not apply. Ordnance or a FT are quite able to make an attack against the pillbox from its own hex; they simply use the NCA TEM. The reason Small Arms can't fire at the pillbox in its own hex is because the rules on NCA TEM say so, not because they have no LOS.I think reciprocity takes care of this one. B30.2 says LOS can't be traced from inside a pillbox to its own hex. B30.1 includes the hexsides of its own hex within its CA to be in LOS.
PBr18 simply gives a pillbox a 360 degree CA. Which means units in such a pillbox can't soot at units in the same hex, but they can shoot at units entering their hex (any of the six hexsides since they have 360 CA). Don't see the complication there.
Can units outside the PB (same hex) use small arms vs enemy units inside the PB?
I won't argue with your interpretation, however, the rule language seems to intentionaly go out of it's way to put limits on those inside the PB as opposed to those outside the PB in the same hex.Per B 30.2
"Fire from inside a pillbox into its own hex is limited to CC, .... or to PBF vs units currently crossing the CA hexsides of its own hex."
So in most cases no small arms fire between units in the PB Location and units in the PB hex.
No EXC for 360 deg PBr PB is known to me.
Adding to my rule argument an aux reality argument:
Every PB structure has dead angles to its immediate vicinity (The movie scene where the US RAngers stand stealthy besides and beneath the vision slits of Atlantic Wall Bunkers).
Wow, I read the rules twice and couldn't find it, but knew it was true from years of playing.....thanks.....B30.1 A pillbox is a Fortification counter that can be set up only prior to the start of play, and only in Open Ground (including any road/shellholes but not bridges), brush, orchard, grain or woods. A Pillbox counter must be placed with the arrow pointing at a specific hexspine so as to define the CA (C3.2) of the pillbox. Except for its two CA hexsides, the pillbox hex itself is not in the pillbox CA. A pillbox may never change its CA or be placed in the same hex with another pillbox. A pillbox is a separate non-vertical-level Location inside its hex; i.e., units inside a pillbox are in a different Location than units outside the pillbox. [Note that new Pillbox counters are included in GUNG HO; although these bear different artwork, they are functionally equivalent to their original counterparts in all respects].
/queues Jazz in (less than) 18 mins
Terms like "fire" or "attacks" aren't defined in the rulebook, and as such are used colloquially. The term "Fire Attacks" is defined (index, A7), but is not used in B30.2. Note also that "firing" is the title of a section in Vehicle Smoke Dispensers (D13.3), and the term "fire" is used throughout those rules. This has led to questions about whether vehicular smoke dispensers are weapons of some sort, with similar results.B30.2: "...Fire from inside a pillbox into its own hex is limited to CC...". In what case you can fire in CC?
FTs may not attack the outside of a pillbox from inside. FTs may attack the inside from the outside, but are affected by the NCA TEM.Interesting thread. Can a FT from within a pillbox fire at an enemy unit in the hex? It would seem logical. A Demo charge can be thrown out of a pillbox. Is that limited to the same hex or its Adjacent hexes within its covered arch.