Arab-Israeli ASL

Yuri0352

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To commemorate today's 50th anniversary of the start of the Six Day War, I would like to open a discussion of the various Arab-Israeli conflicts as viewed in the context of ASL.

My personal ASL experience in this conflict has been limited to the old, original CH module of the 1948 war. I would be especially interested in hearing of anyone's experiences or opinions regarding the later CH module, Genesis II, which includes actions from the 1956, 1967 and Yom Kippur wars.
I have read the Genesis II product review on the Desperation Morale site, however many questions remain regarding gameplay, historical accuracy, etc.

I realize that this subject is very esoteric even for ASL, even so I would love to hear it there have been any other Arab-Israeli ASL products produced or if there could be any such projects in development or consideration. To be clear, I am most interested in hearing about anything dealing with the later, post-1948 conflicts, especially the Six Day War or Yom Kippur.I

Thanks for reading.
 

jrv

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I think this will be coming out once the SAM and Sagger rules are done.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Not interested.

Korea is already a stretch IMHO. Arab/Israeli in ASL context I would pass.

von Marwitz
 

Delirium

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I think the 1948 conflict could be interesting, if put together by a reputable producer.

After that, I'm in Von Marwitz's camp as I have limited interest in ASL Korea and less in subsequent conflicts.
 

Gunner Scott

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Paul M. Weir

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I got the 1st iteration of CH's AIW product and was reasonably pleased with it. By the time the 2nd iteration came out I was going off CH, but what sealed it for me was a post here that highlighted ridiculous values for T-54 counters. The apparent reason was to make the Arab manned AFV easier to kill by the Israeli side, a design for effect decision. ASL already has many ways to "soft degrade" powerful AFV, such as Inexperienced Crews, Platoon Movement, SSRing mandatory BU firing, etc. There is no excuse for not providing historically accurate hard factors. A platoon, company or battalion level game designer might validly argue that a counter's movement combat and defence values are a reflection of that unit's overall effective combat ability but when you go into a hard factor single vehicle game like ASL then you either layer performance soft factors onto valid hard factors or you are doing something very, very wrong.

If my memory is correct CH's T-54 was given [8] or 8 front armour, instead of [18] or 18.

Israel's armour advantage was training and unit cohesion, they had at various times a slight to moderate edge in equipment, but not enough to explain their success. Anyone using CH's 2nd version would draw entirely erroneous historical lessons. Such tinkering with, nay mutilation of, historical truths make their 2nd iteration the number 1 candidate for consignment to ASL hell in my opinion.
 

von Marwitz

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here are a couple of AAR's I did on some of the Gen II scenarios:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/gen-ii-18-push-to-um-katef.106687/

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/gen48-ii-19-bloody-french-hill.103948/

Even though the product is not from a "reputable" ASL producer it to me is a fairly decent product.
I think that indeed post- (and pre-) WW2 theaters using ASL rules are perfect territory for TPPs. Better have MMP focus on WW2 for ASL.

von Marwitz
 

Brian W

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If my memory is correct CH's T-54 was given [8] or 8 front armour, instead of [18] or 18.
I would go so far as to suggest that it was a misprint that would have cost them money to fix, so they added the justification after the fact.
 

Yuri0352

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Thank you for your reply and the link to your analysis of the T-54/55. I am shocked to hear that CH has portrayed the armor values of the T-55 as being comparable to that of a Sherman V. My primary interest in the Genesis II module was the potential of 1960's era western AFV 's (and Shermans) squaring off against their Soviet-made contemporaries. However the unfair representation of these Soviet AFV 's basically kills my interest in the module. Very disappointing as I have a strong interest in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.

On the other hand, your responses have probably saved me at least $100.
Thank you again, Paul.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Thank you for your reply and the link to your analysis of the T-54/55. I am shocked to hear that CH has portrayed the armor values of the T-55 as being comparable to that of a Sherman V. My primary interest in the Genesis II module was the potential of 1960's era western AFV 's (and Shermans) squaring off against their Soviet-made contemporaries. However the unfair representation of these Soviet AFV 's basically kills my interest in the module. Very disappointing as I have a strong interest in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.

On the other hand, your responses have probably saved me at least $100.
Thank you again, Paul.
I'm delighted that you found those posts useful.

I must remind all that I only have V1, not V2 of their AIW effort, so my V2 comments are strictly based upon 2nd hand reporting. V1 had the Old City Jerusalem map, unlike V2, I believe. The V1 counters had CH's own peculiar representation of the ASL data (designed to get around any potential copyright problems) and need time to get used to. The V1 concentrates mainly on '48 and '56, so if your interest is mainly '67 and '73 then you are out of luck. Having said that, if you have an interest in AIW and can get the V1 very cheap I would suggest you go for it. It's been a decade since I last dug it out, but my memory of it was fairly positive.

While it has been quite a few years since I bought a CH item after many years of purchases, if you come across an interesting CH item at a knockdown price then by all means go for it, but these days there is so much better quality and playtested ASL stuff available, that apart from possible bargain/remainder bin sales of CH stuff, I advise against.
 

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Racist comments will not be tolerated.
First off, perhaps the reason for a lowered AF on the T-54 might be due to poor arab rag head training, lack of familiarity with their vehicles, superior IDF gunnery and so on.

Second, I do understand that there is an inherent hatred for CH products and some here will make sure they can slam those products at every opportunity if given a chance without even batting an eye. It is the internet after all. But I want to say, this product is pretty awesome and really different than your typical cookie cutter scenarios. I'm also sure you can find Gen II for alot cheaper than a 100 bucks.

Thank you for your reply and the link to your analysis of the T-54/55. I am shocked to hear that CH has portrayed the armor values of the T-55 as being comparable to that of a Sherman V. My primary interest in the Genesis II module was the potential of 1960's era western AFV 's (and Shermans) squaring off against their Soviet-made contemporaries. However the unfair representation of these Soviet AFV 's basically kills my interest in the module. Very disappointing as I have a strong interest in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.

On the other hand, your responses have probably saved me at least $100.
Thank you again, Paul.
 

Whiskers1123

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First off, perhaps the reason for a lowered AF on the T-54 might be due to poor arab rag head training, lack of familiarity with their vehicles, superior IDF gunnery and so on.

Second, I do understand that there is an inherent hatred for CH products and some here will make sure they can slam those products at every opportunity if given a chance without even batting an eye. It is the internet after all. But I want to say, this product is pretty awesome and really different than your typical cookie cutter scenarios. I'm also sure you can find Gen II for alot cheaper than a 100 bucks.
LOL! Too funny.
 

Nineteen Kilo

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Thanks Paul I had spent some time yesterday looking for that very post, but couldn't find it. I was just "up stream" of you in post #50 stating the exact same thing "let the weapons be assigned their quantifiable numbers and use SSR's to simulate historical outcomes". That was the last purchase I ever made from CH and it was only made because of the huge gape in the ASL 48 & 56 wars it filled.
 
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Misterhawk

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First off, perhaps the reason for a lowered AF on the T-54 might be due to poor arab rag head training, lack of familiarity with their vehicles, superior IDF gunnery and so on.
I appreciate your comments on the product, since you've actually played it.

You may be right that the armor factor was changed to reflect soft factors, but if that's the case it was, as others have suggested, a nonsensical decision.

Your "rag head" slur was as stupid as it was unnecessary. Your ASL specific comments are often valuable; your social commentary is embarrassingly dimwitted.
 

Delirium

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Put my elderly aunt and three of her friends in one modern MBT, say a Merkava, and a crack team of Israeli tank instructors in another identical Merkava; neither crew will have any bearing whatsoever on the physics of the tank's armour. That's obvious, right?

One reason I qualified my potential (mild) interest in a 1948 scenario pack is because I have no interest in wasting my money on products with egregious, easily avoidable errors.

As regards social commentary, spare a thought for conscripts of any and all nationalities forced to fight, die and be maimed and scarred in wars not of their choosing.
 

Gunner Scott

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Maybe you should get out from behind your desk, join the Army and actually fight snowflake. They are the enemy and must be treated as such.

I appreciate your comments on the product, since you've actually played it.

You may be right that the armor factor was changed to reflect soft factors, but if that's the case it was, as others have suggested, a nonsensical decision.

Your "rag head" slur was as stupid as it was unnecessary. Your ASL specific comments are often valuable; your social commentary is embarrassingly dimwitted.
 

Misterhawk

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Maybe you should get out from behind your desk, join the Army and actually fight snowflake. They are the enemy and must be treated as such.
I'm not sure what emotional inadequacy makes you such a dick online but you should talk to someone. You have a lot to offer to the hobby but it sometimes gets lost amidst your pointless commentary about things not ASL.

And to clarify, I didn't have a desk, Scotty; I retired after twenty-six years in Infantry, Armor and Civil Affairs with the Army National Guard/Army Reserve and was awarded the Combat Action Badge while serving in Afghanistan. Were you were shoveling shit in Louisiana or did you actually make it to where the fighting was?

Oh, and, having taught Force Protection and Anti-Terrorism, I can assure you that, in the greater scheme of things, ignorant bastards like you are bigger threat to our way of life than a couple of delusional jihadis, but if you feel the need to hide under your desk, we will always have guys who will stand the watch and protect you. No need to be scared ...

My apologies for detouring the thread.
 
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