Female ASL players

Philippe D.

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It's hard to decide how much of the under-representation of women in the hobby is due to social pressure.

In my area (I teach computer science in a university), the number of women among students is desperately small, yet we repeatedly observe that young women do just as well on grades as young men, and the top researchers in my institution include about as many women as men. But the computer is typically associated with nerds and obsessive teenagers, and is not seen as leading to attractive carreers by young women - and some institutional communication attempts I've seen to try and correct theses tendencies only make the gap worse, IMHO.

I don't know how similar the situation is in the hobby. I've never met a female wargamer, and my wife will play lots of computer games, but nothing approaching wargames, be they paper or computer (even though she is among a similar minority to what I described in her job - mathematics has a very similar gender bias as computer science, possibly even worse).

One thing I've noticed is that many ASL players are military or ex-military - and the number of women in armed forces is increasing worldwide. Could this lead to an increased interest in wargames among women? (now this will lead back to the dinosaurs thread...)
 

Robin Reeve

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I would guess that the proportion of females playing ASL is comparable with other historical wargames.
With model trains and stamp collection perhaps too.
What about Warhammer 40K, or fantasy / sci-fi themed conflict games?

I do see some reluctance from the women in my boardgaming contacts when I suggest playing Zombicide, Axis and Allies, D&D Boardgame, etc.
But Smallworld is ok, as well as Eurogames.
 

greuh

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10 years ago, when I first played ASLSK, my girlfriend at the time would play with me (my only regular opponent) and kick my ass 80% of the time. We broke up long ago (we stayed together 6 months) and AFAIK she never played ASL again.
 

Tom Nelson

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In HMGS there is Cleo and Bob. This is miniatures. She is a great player. They edit our newsletter. Bob has been wargaming since the 1950s. She for less time. I once hosted and participated in a naval miniatures game Seekreig 5 where she torpedoed a Japanese old destroyer when her own American old destroyer had sustained a boiler hit and was coming to an eventual stop. I had them over for their first ASL game and they both enjoyed it. Tom
 

Sand Bar Bill

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Not to be sexist, but just to be realistic: The female gender is not nor ever has been interested in history or war.
For the same reason more men don't spend entire afternoons shopping for shoes.
Give or take a tenth of a percent, 99.9% of men don't play these type of games and probably 90% of guys aren't reading history books, if they read at all. My wife thinks wargamers are generally schizoids living in an insular world from what she has seen (she has a masters in psych).
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's hard to decide how much of the under-representation of women in the hobby is due to social pressure.

In my area (I teach computer science in a university), the number of women among students is desperately small, yet we repeatedly observe that young women do just as well on grades as young men, and the top researchers in my institution include about as many women as men. But the computer is typically associated with nerds and obsessive teenagers, and is not seen as leading to attractive carreers by young women - and some institutional communication attempts I've seen to try and correct theses tendencies only make the gap worse, IMHO.

I don't know how similar the situation is in the hobby. I've never met a female wargamer, and my wife will play lots of computer games, but nothing approaching wargames, be they paper or computer (even though she is among a similar minority to what I described in her job - mathematics has a very similar gender bias as computer science, possibly even worse).
You only add to the perception that women *have* to do these things by using the word "under-represented". It's not hard to imagine women would like to concentrate on nurturing a family, I just don't know when or why we transitioned to believing it is wrong for them to do so. When pointy heads start talking about how 50% of the CEOs, half of world leaders, half the starting roster for the Dallas Cowboys etc. etc. "need" to be women, I guess I don't understand. I'm not at all concerned that men are under-represented in the ranks of airline attendants or professional sports cheerleaders.

I am all for women having equal access to any job they want, be it a combat infantry squad leader, Chief Financial Officer, computer programmer or goalie in the NHL. But I'm also not inclined to wring my hands if more women don't want to do these things. Seems too much like trying to fix something that isn't broken.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Give or take a tenth of a percent, 99.9% of men don't play these type of games and probably 90% of guys aren't reading history books, if they read at all. My wife thinks wargamers are generally schizoids living in an insular world from what she has seen (she has a masters in psych).
Aside from the fact you pulled those numbers out of thin air, I'd disagree that men are out of touch with world history. If they dont' read, they certainly watch one or two shows on TV. I'm constantly surprised by the number of men I've worked with in civilian locales who had at least a perfunctory understanding of 20th Century military history, at least as it pertains to Canada, the US, Britain - probably because most of them had relatives who served. As we retreat from the Second World War, and our conflicts involve fewer of our soldiers, this may change, but I don't think we're there yet.
 

witchbottles

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Aside from the fact you pulled those numbers out of thin air, I'd disagree that men are out of touch with world history. If they dont' read, they certainly watch one or two shows on TV. I'm constantly surprised by the number of men I've worked with in civilian locales who had at least a perfunctory understanding of 20th Century military history, at least as it pertains to Canada, the US, Britain - probably because most of them had relatives who served. As we retreat from the Second World War, and our conflicts involve fewer of our soldiers, this may change, but I don't think we're there yet.
Considering that the vast majority of year 1-4 college students in America could not tell you when Nazi Germany declared ware on Poland, nor when Pearl Harbor occurred; the fact that this same demographic could not correctly name the major combatant countries of World War 2, nor tell you correctly what year the war ended; I am inclined to believe there is a large gulf between 80s babies, 90s babies and millenials and anything that has to do with WW2 as a topic.

Further, the same demographic cannot in the majority identify which country on a map is South Korea - even though the Koreas are fairly regular major network news stories. They cannot tell you at what point America committed ground troops to the fight in Vietnam, nor when the US evacuated, nor when the conflict finally ended, nor what the two Vietnams were correctly called as countries.

In addition, the same demographic has never seen a "Duck and cover", has no idea what the triple yellow triangle on a black sign means at the local library or bank building built in the 50's, and cannot correctly identify what year the USSR fell apart, nor can they tell you what "Chechnya" is, nor locate it on a map.

They cannot in the main identify Macedonia, no Bosnia-Herzegovina, nor can they tell you their historical significance either in 1914 , nor in 1994.

There is a large falling out / away from "history" in general in modern post-industrial societies. The information is not "pulled from the Orion galaxy last night whilst looking at the stars" - it is readily available, thanks to the internet. The good assertion you make well is the fact that this is not an oddity tht is gender specific, it occurs for males at the same rates and percentages as females. Gender seems to have zero impact on the general nonchalance developments towards "history" as a topic.


KRL, Jon H
 

Tuomo

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I could play my wife in an ASL scenario and achieve the Victory Conditions.

But she'd make me FEEL like I lost.
 

badpiper

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Instead of speculating wildly about females, gender, sociology, anthropology, and quoting questionable statistics, why don't you ask a female? Surely, you know at least one? I'm sure she will be able to at least tell you why she doesn't like to play.

Hell, she might even surprise you and agree to play.

I've asked my wife to play, and she politely declines. She would much rather play Zombicide or X-Wing. She says that ASL is just too complex and it makes it hard for her to really get into the scenario. Other games have rule sets that make it easier to really enjoy the setting. Probably a fair criticism.

Mike
 

davegin

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Give or take a tenth of a percent, 99.9% of men don't play these type of games and probably 90% of guys aren't reading history books, if they read at all. My wife thinks wargamers are generally schizoids living in an insular world from what she has seen (she has a masters in psych).
I see now where your problem lies: Your wife has a Masters in Psych.

I cannot agree that "wargamers" (particularly ASL) "live in an insular world". The majority of the ASL players I have met and/or played against have a multi-varied set of interests. Politics, music, art, books, family, sports (need I continue) are constant topics I have shared with "wargamers".
At the ASLOK picnic, which BTW was conceived in order to get ASL players together outside of the game venue and talk about subjects other than "the Game", thirty to fifty of us every gathering enjoy conversations on a myriad of subjects.
I regularly talk to Taylor on new music, his kids, and politics. He lives in Michigan and I am in Ohio, but we talk about once a week. Only 10-20% of our conversation is ever about ASL. At my last tournament in ST. Louis, I roomed (and drove) with Tom Cvetinovich, spent time sampling bourbons with Wes Vaughn, and shared meals with many. I would say that less than 10% of our conversations were about ASL. The last time I played my old friend Ray Wolyosan, our conversations were mostly about modern novels. I always talk to Bret about his son and his son's athletic interests.

So, I refute the idea that we "gamers" live in an "insular" world. Maybe you and the psych major have us confused with the "playing 18 hours a day on a computer" crowd. At any rate, I think you are confused.

"No animals were harmed in this post nor were any insults intended toward people of higher education."
 

samwat

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I amend my former statement. It is certainly true that "the female gender" is not interested in the history "of war". That is not to say they aren't interested in the "social" aspects of history. Dressing up at colonial Williamsburg and the like is about social history, not war. Women are interested in anthropology and the like as it pertains to the "social" aspects of history. I still say that war history is an uninteresting subject to women in general. Minoring in history back at Marquette in the late sixties there was not one female in any of the classes for junior and senior year. Not one.
That was nearly 50 years ago. Today about half of grad students in history, and probably about 40% of faculty, are women.
 

davegin

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Can you back that stat up? In northern Ohio universities, including Ohio State, that percentage is way out of whack. Again, I am referring to military/war history.
 

davegin

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Mike,
You really need to read all the descriptions.
Six of the seven women in the above Duke link mention nothing about war/miliary history:
Ms. Glymph: African american studies
Ms. Barnes: Health and medicine in China
Ms. Humphreys: Health and medicine
Ms. Krylova: Socialism, emphasis on Russia
Ms. Lentz-Smith: African american studies
Ms. MacLean: Social movements

Only Ms. Neuschel focuses on "war" and culture, and only in medieval Europe (1400 to 1600) and focuses on gender relations of consequence for that period.

So, again....where are the stats on women concerned with military/war history. An iffy 1 out of 7 doesn't cut it.
 

aiabx

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I've known a couple casual female players, both of whom were far more interested in Euro games. But the split is huge. My best guess is that we grew up playing with cap guns and toy soldiers and model planes at a time when girls were encouraged to play differently, and they didn't absorb the childhood idea that war is exciting and fun. I mean, I grew up to be as much a pacifist as anyone, but I still get a rush sending my cardboard Panther crashing through walls with imaginary guns blazing.
 

bendizoid

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badpiper

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Dave, perhaps you should read the title...

All 9 of them make up the Military War Society. True, each of the nine may focus on different aspects, but still.

I'm really not sure what the value is parading a bunch of female war historians is, but why not?



[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_W._Tuchman"]Barbara Tuchman


Laura Rowe - Naval war historian! Talk about niche.
Melissa Bokovy[/URL]

Jessica Meyer

This is just a few minutes of googling.

There seem to be plenty of women who are interested in war.

Having said that, there seem to be plenty of women interested in war, but a relative lack of women interested in pushing bits of cardboard around. True enough. As to why, I still say "ask them".

Mike
 
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