The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom (do not create new DRM threads below)

Elmar Bijlsma

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

A bit odd that the critics get all the blame by people who ought to know better. SES themselves have themselves built up a solid reputation for dickish behaviour. Are they blameless? Their behaviour here in the past has not done them credit in my eyes.
Sure some of the ardent critics can be a bit much. But singling them out for all the blame smacks of bias.
 

Coypus

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

No offense but I never found discussion was welcome on this board, If you agreed with the SES view on WWI things I'm sure these boards are very welcoming. If you agree that States rights caused the ACW :D I'm sure you would be even more welcome.
 

Pdqport

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Keep the comments coming. Feedback is always welcome.

I don't have much specific to say about this situation as I haven't been involved in any of the dedicated wargame sub-forums in quite some time. The majority of my time has been tied up in other endeavors. I will simply re-post what I told the moderators in private.
Quote Originally Posted by Don Maddox
I have received a number of PMs and emails from people on this issue but have left them largely untouched because I'm not a mod and I have not even been in the DG folder to see what's going on. That said, I will give the mods my 2 cents even though you haven't asked for it.

I generally prefer to avoid long bans or closing threads. These methods rarely make things better because people tend to overreact and view thread closure along the lines of "this topic is off-limits," even though that wasn't the intent of the mods. Trust me, I've been down that road many times and it usually ends up doing more harm than good. It's better to let people say what they have to say, which as I see it is the primary purpose of an independent game forum.

In the case of SES, some people don't like the DRM the company employs and have very strong feelings on that subject. Fair enough. But the comments and criticism on that issue ought to be directed toward SES and its representatives because they're the people who make the games and who are in a position to actually say something meaningful on the issue as it pertains to their games. Closing discussions will simply re-focus that frustration on the volunteer GS mods, and that's not a position the mods will want to be in.

DRM discussions are always messy. Always. But like it or not it is a legitimate topic for gamers to discuss and debate. That said, allowing DRM flame wars to dominate discussion isn't a good thing either. The best approach is probably to keep the DRM discussion contained in one or two threads where people can discuss the issue freely. Deleting or closing discussions entirely is to be avoided. It's better to just combine them into one or two threads where everyone can have their say, or rant, or whatever, and then people can sort through it all and make up their own minds.
Hi Don- Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, the moderator for the SES sub-forum has made it clear he will not allow any discussion on DRM, whether it is limited to one or two threads or not.
 

Redwolf

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

So, Don, you are OK with your moderators editing other people's posts without notice?
 

Hertston

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

No offense but I never found discussion was welcome on this board, If you agreed with the SES view on WWI things I'm sure these boards are very welcoming. If you agree that States rights caused the ACW :D I'm sure you would be even more welcome.
I think you'll find SES have left the building, so if that that's all that was putting you off, post away... :)
 
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Coypus

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

I think you'll find SES have left the building, so if that that's all that was putting you off, post away... :)
I think its fairly understandable SES got their own little kingdom, where people can agree all day long that the HSF kept the Grand Fleet blockaded in port throughout the war. Me I could not give a toss about DRM I just wanted to buy a game that vaguely resembled conditions in WWI and discuss naval history. Loved the ship models disliked the intereptation and the attitude
 
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Dr Zaius

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

* Note: This post has been moved to the Distant Guns forum from its original location in the main GameSquad help section.

So, Don, you are OK with your moderators editing other people's posts without notice?
No, I am not (if that's what actually happened). I have to admit that I don't know what's going on in the DG forum besides what I've learned in this thread. If you have haven't already done so, send in a 'Report Post' report with your specific concerns so that the whole mod team can take a look at what's going on.

As I said, I'm going to try to stay out of this and let the volunteer mods handle it. But sometimes it doesn't hurt to encourage the volunteer mods check each other's work and provide feedback to each other.
 

Redwolf

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Oh it happened allright. So if we report posts that goes to you? Obviously it's quite useless if it goes to Saddletank.
 

Dr Zaius

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

* Note: This post has been moved to the Distant Guns forum from its original location in the main GameSquad help section.

Oh it happened allright. So if we report posts that goes to you? Obviously it's quite useless if it goes to Saddletank.
Not exactly. When you use the report post feature your report gets sent to a private moderator forum where all the mods can see it and talk over the best course of action (if any). I can tell you the reports that come in range from the horrific to the ridiculous and everything in between. The stuff that people will report is just amazing at times. The mods do their best to sort it all out, but bear in mind they're only volunteers and it's a thankless job.

If mods are editing posts then that's something that needs to be reported so the whole mod team can weigh in on it and get it sorted out (and please be as specific as possible so the mods have something to work with).

On a semi-related note, I just wondered into the DG forum to see what's going on for myself. Honestly, I was a little surprised to see how harsh the comments from all sides had gotten. I haven't been in there in ages as I've been busy with school, a new baby and lots of other stuff, but I remember the DG forum as being a fairly quiet place for the most part except for the occasional flame war. Perhaps I was wrong about that or perhaps things have changed. At any rate, it appears that your posts played a big part in pissing off the guys from SES. That's just your posting style, I guess. But in all fairness, some of the SES guys can be pretty touchy at times as well, so I'm not entirely surprised tempers have flared and an official forum has now been set up for SES products.

I have to admit I was also a bit taken aback to read some of the comments regarding GameSquad itself from both posters and reps from SES. It appears that some feel the GS mods were way overzealous and responsible for stomping on open debate. On the other side of the fence the SES guys were upset that the mods didn't take a more active approach and ban posters they deemed as inciting problems. Catch 22. I don't know who said what to who first or who "started it" and I really don't intend to get further involved unless the mod team requires my intervention. I will, however, ask the mods to keep an eye on things.

I'm not going to lose a lot a sleep about it. Half of you are pissed off at GS and the SES guys are certainly pissed off. But I maintain that the real dispute is between a certain segment of the wargame community and SES, not GameSquad. GameSquad is just a place where both sides can discuss all this stuff and everyone can have their say. You have a right to have your say but so do the guys from SES. I think it's unfortunate that everyone just couldn't agree to disagree before it reached the point where SES felt compelled to withdraw, but perhaps some good will come from all of this. SES now has its own forum and hopefully that will turn out to be a great resource for wargamers. I also hope the DG forum here continues to be a place that's useful for gamers.

But what I don't want to do is start hammering volunteer moderators because, let's face it, they have a very tough task and it isn't always easy to sort through the problems of an open forum and try to keep the peace. Nor will I bow to pressure from developers or anyone else and start banning controversial posters. The only way anyone is getting banned is if the volunteer moderators deem that's the only course of action open to them. Bottom line: the intent of the GS forums is to serve as a place where everyone can have their say, even if it's unpopular or controversial. And that includes regular posters, developers, and everybody else.

Keep the comments coming.
 

Redwolf

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Well, if you think it's my fault (that my comments stirred up the trouble) then sure you can link to comments that I made that are in any way not true or even misplaced (thread crapping etc)? That goes for Saddletank, too, unless he nuked his own evidence that is.

Just because Jim Rose is pissed off doesn't really say anything. I mean look at his post where he explains how it is all MS Windows' fault.
 

JAG88

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Nah, Coypus just wanted something that resembled the rosy-coloured propaganda depicted in Massiie's work, and, well, anyone trying to put more stock on Massie over Campbell in a technical discussion is, it has to be said, hopelessly clueless.
 

Dr Zaius

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

* Note: This post has been moved to the Distant Guns forum from its original location in the main GameSquad help section.

Well, if you think it's my fault (that my comments stirred up the trouble) then sure you can link to comments that I made that are in any way not true or even misplaced (thread crapping etc)? That goes for Saddletank, too, unless he nuked his own evidence that is.
I didn't say it was all your fault. What I would say is that it appears a lot of people (including you) played a part in generating some bad feelings in there. But that's based on a superficial reading of the forums. I didn't dig very far into it and I don't intend to. I've asked the mods to take a look at things and also keep an eye on the comments here, so my part in this is probably complete. I hope.
 

Slider6

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Ditto Coypus.

Well I think enough linger to make sure no serious debate could take place without ensuring it degrades into something personal.

Cya folks.
 

Redwolf

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Mods? What mods? I thought it's only Saddletank.
 

Dr Zaius

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

* Note: This post has been moved to the Distant Guns forum from its original location in the main GameSquad help section.

Mods? What mods? I thought it's only Saddletank.
Any mod can moderate any forum. Some just have specific areas of interest.
 

Pdqport

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

Bottom line: the intent of the GS forums is to serve as a place where everyone can have their say, even if it's unpopular or controversial. And that includes regular posters, developers, and everybody else.
Don, I really believe that is your intent with these forums, but I know it is not the intent of Jim Rose or SES and Saddletank seems to have decided to advocate for them. Thanks for taking the time to read through the posts a bit. Honestly, given the nature of DRM discussions and internet forums in general, I thought the threads were on the tamer side. Even while closing the threads, Saddletank noted that no one had really violated forum rules, he was just tired of the conversation. That doesn't seem like good policy, for mods to close threads because they don't happen to like the topic.

It's not specifically against the site rules and I am the first person to acknowledge that, I knew when I took action yesterday that the site rules did not specifically allow me to do what I did.
saddletank said:
No further threads regarding attacks on the principle of DRM will be permitted on this forum.

Thank you.

GAMESQUAD MODERATOR
 
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Dr Zaius

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RE: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

The DRM discussions in the DG area have now been combined into a single thread. I don't expect this solution to please everyone -- surprise, surprise -- but it does give people a place to freely discuss DRM issues while helping to ensure one controversial topic doesn't derail the rest of the Distant Guns forum. I now consider my involvement with this subject to be complete.

* Note: Some portions of this thread may be a little hard to follow due to the large number of threads that were combined, some of which were originally in the main GameSquad help forum and not in the Distant Guns forum. From now on this should be the place for all SES DRM discussions. See the first post in this thread for guidelines.
 

Pdqport

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Re: The Distant Guns DRM thread of doom

The DRM discussions in the DG area have now been combined into a single thread. I don't expect this solution to please everyone -- surprise, surprise -- but it does give people a place to freely discuss DRM issues while helping to ensure one controversial topic doesn't derail the rest of the Distant Guns forum. I now consider my involvement with this subject to be complete.
Thanks for the compromise, Don.
 
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