Squad+MG defensive fire question

Arnaud

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At the start of the Defensive Fire Phase (DFPh) a squad is marked First Fire while its MG is not marked. Is the following sequence correct:

1- the MG fires and loses ROF. It is now marked Final Fire.
2- the squad fires its IFP on an (other) adjacent target.

Couldn't find anything that prevented it so I guess it's OK, it just seemed weird that between steps 1 and 2 the squad would be marked First Fire while its MG was marked Final Fire.
 

klasmalmstrom

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At the start of the Defensive Fire Phase (DFPh) a squad is marked First Fire while its MG is not marked. Is the following sequence correct:

1- the MG fires and loses ROF. It is now marked Final Fire.
2- the squad fires its IFP on an (other) adjacent target.

Couldn't find anything that prevented it so I guess it's OK, it just seemed weird that between steps 1 and 2 the squad would be marked First Fire while its MG was marked Final Fire.
I believe the sequence of events you describe are correct.
 

Mark Humphries

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I believe the sequence of events you describe are correct.
While you're on the subject:
If the MG fires when its manning unit is already marked with a First Fire counter then the MG is considered to be using Sustained Fire: B# lowered by 2, Area Fire, no ROF, mark MG and manning infantry with Final Fire. Is this correct?
 
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klasmalmstrom

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While you're on the subject:
If the MG fires when its manning unit is already marked with a First Fire counter then the MG is considered to be using Sustained Fire: B# lowered by 2, Area Fire, no ROF, mark MG and manning infantry with Final Fire. Is this correct?
Only if they fire during the MPh and the squad is also firing its inherent FP as FG with the MG.
 

Will Fleming

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A8.3 SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE: A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) [errata included] already marked with a First Fire counter may Defensive First Fire again during that MPh as Area Fire by flipping its First Fire counter over to the Final Fire side. Such fire can leave Residual FP but if using a MG/IFE is treated as Sustained Fire and penalized accordingly. Only Small Arms [EXC: MOL], MG, and IFE can be used as Subsequent First Fire. Subsequent First Fire cannot be attempted against any target at a range > that to the closest armed, Known enemy unit, nor outside the firer's Normal Range. Like Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire options are MF/MP dependent; i.e., if the moving unit expends only one MF and draws Defensive First Fire, that Defensive First Firer cannot immediately Subsequent First Fire at it until it expends another MF. The same unit/weapon can never fire on a moving unit in the same Location more times than the number of MF/MP expended (FRD, but a minimum of once per hex) in that Location during that MPh (see 9.2). Whenever a unit uses Subsequent First Fire, it must use all MG/IFE in its possession (up to the unit's normal operation capabilities; 7.35-.353) as Subsequent First Fire or forfeit their use for the remainder of that Player Turn (barring FPF); a squad may not split its usable inherent FP from that of its MG/IFE during Subsequent First Fire unless it opts to not use the remaining FP/SW at all. A Multiple-ROF weapon cannot be fired more than once per Subsequent First Fire attack. If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter. [errata included]

As per the blue, the squad would also be marked Final Fire.

If the squad (or MG) final fires, the other essentially does too or forfeits the shot.

You can fire both together as first fire or (barring cowering) fire them separately for first fire, then fire them together (or don't use the MG for fear of malfunction) for subsequent fire (provided you didn't cower on one of the prior shots). Once one is marked Final Fire, the other essentially is also.

You can always Final Protective Fire provided the opponent is ADJ/same hex and using enough MP/MF and you don't break yourself.
 

Mark Humphries

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A8.3 SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE: A DEFENDING Infantry unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) [errata included] already marked with a First Fire counter may Defensive First Fire again during that MPh as Area Fire by flipping its First Fire counter over to the Final Fire side. Such fire can leave Residual FP but if using a MG/IFE is treated as Sustained Fire and penalized accordingly. Only Small Arms [EXC: MOL], MG, and IFE can be used as Subsequent First Fire. Subsequent First Fire cannot be attempted against any target at a range > that to the closest armed, Known enemy unit, nor outside the firer's Normal Range. Like Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire options are MF/MP dependent; i.e., if the moving unit expends only one MF and draws Defensive First Fire, that Defensive First Firer cannot immediately Subsequent First Fire at it until it expends another MF. The same unit/weapon can never fire on a moving unit in the same Location more times than the number of MF/MP expended (FRD, but a minimum of once per hex) in that Location during that MPh (see 9.2). Whenever a unit uses Subsequent First Fire, it must use all MG/IFE in its possession (up to the unit's normal operation capabilities; 7.35-.353) as Subsequent First Fire or forfeit their use for the remainder of that Player Turn (barring FPF); a squad may not split its usable inherent FP from that of its MG/IFE during Subsequent First Fire unless it opts to not use the remaining FP/SW at all. A Multiple-ROF weapon cannot be fired more than once per Subsequent First Fire attack. If a unit, or any SW/Gun it possesses, uses Subsequent First Fire (or Intensive Fire) then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter. [errata included]

As per the blue, the squad would also be marked Final Fire.

If the squad (or MG) final fires, the other essentially does too or forfeits the shot.

You can fire both together as first fire or (barring cowering) fire them separately for first fire, then fire them together (or don't use the MG for fear of malfunction) for subsequent fire (provided you didn't cower on one of the prior shots). Once one is marked Final Fire, the other essentially is also.

You can always Final Protective Fire provided the opponent is ADJ/same hex and using enough MP/MF and you don't break yourself.
Thanks very much Will! That was very helpful.
 

Arnaud

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Thanks to all for the precision.

Once one is marked Final Fire, the other essentially is also.
This is true in the MPh (Subsequent First Fire, A8.3). In the DFPh however you can possibly have the MG marked Final Fire after it loses ROF while the squad is still marked First Fire, thus eligible to fire at adjacent targets (keeping in mind Mandatory FG restrictions). That was what confused me.
 

Mike Murphy

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Thanks all for these clarifications. I'm sure that somewhere along the line I've gotten some part of this wrong.
 

Augie

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Similar question:
A squad with a MMG, fires only the MG at a target during the MPh. It fires the MG twice, maintaining rate both times. At the beginning of the DFPh, neither the squad nor MMG is marked with First Fire/Final Fire - therefore I assume both the squad & MMG can fire as if the MMG never fired at all. Is my assumption correct?
 

Jazz

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Similar question:
A squad with a MMG, fires only the MG at a target during the MPh. It fires the MG twice, maintaining rate both times. At the beginning of the DFPh, neither the squad nor MMG is marked with First Fire/Final Fire - therefore I assume both the squad & MMG can fire as if the MMG never fired at all. Is my assumption correct?
Correct, both squad and MG can fire s first fire at full strength without penalty....but if any leadership was applied to the previous ROF shots taken by the MG alone, that leadership could not be applied to a shot taken as a FG with the squad.
 

Larry

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At the start of the Defensive Fire Phase (DFPh) a squad is marked First Fire while its MG is not marked. Is the following sequence correct:

1- the MG fires and loses ROF. It is now marked Final Fire.
2- the squad fires its IFP on an (other) adjacent target.

Couldn't find anything that prevented it so I guess it's OK, it just seemed weird that between steps 1 and 2 the squad would be marked First Fire while its MG was marked Final Fire.
That is not correct. If the MG fires and loses rate, the MG is now marked with a first fire counter, if the MG only fired. Under no circumstances can a unit or any weapon have a final fire counter that does not apply to every weapon that the unit could fire, including IFP.

A unit marked with a first fire counter that fires IFP will get a final fire counter.
A unit marked with a first fire counter that fires an unmarked SW moves the first fire counter to apply to both IFP and SW.
A unit marked with a first fire counter that fires both IFP and marked or unmarked SW will get marked with a final fire counter.
There are 9 permutations of unit, SW, or both with first fire and the unit, SW, or both firing again, subject to the rules for SW firing after getting marked.
 

klasmalmstrom

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That is not correct. If the MG fires and loses rate, the MG is now marked with a first fire counter, if the MG only fired. Under no circumstances can a unit or any weapon have a final fire counter that does not apply to every weapon that the unit could fire, including IFP.

A unit marked with a first fire counter that fires IFP will get a final fire counter.
A unit marked with a first fire counter that fires an unmarked SW moves the first fire counter to apply to both IFP and SW.
A unit marked with a first fire counter that fires both IFP and marked or unmarked SW will get marked with a final fire counter.
There are 9 permutations of unit, SW, or both with first fire and the unit, SW, or both firing again, subject to the rules for SW firing after getting marked.
I believe though that he was asking about fire during the DFPh - not during the MPh. And during the DFPh I believe that the sequence described is correct. Unless I'm missing something in the DFPh rules.
 

Fort

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I believe though that he was asking about fire during the DFPh - not during the MPh. And during the DFPh I believe that the sequence described is correct. Unless I'm missing something in the DFPh rules.
You're correct Klas. During the DFPh the sequence as described is correct.
 

atomic

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At the start of the Defensive Fire Phase (DFPh) a squad is marked First Fire while its MG is not marked. Is the following sequence correct:

1- the MG fires and loses ROF. It is now marked Final Fire.
2- the squad fires its IFP on an (other) adjacent target.

Couldn't find anything that prevented it so I guess it's OK, it just seemed weird that between steps 1 and 2 the squad would be marked First Fire while its MG was marked Final Fire.
I believe the sequence of events you describe are correct.
Picking up on an old thread here after a recently played game. So, assuming the situation that Arnaud describes but adding a leader to the stack. The leader has fired with the squad in DFF. Are the following statements true?
  1. If the MG fires and rolls doubles (cowers) then the squad and leader cannot fire again because the whole stack gets Final Fired.
  2. If the MG fires exhausting ROF but not cowering. Only the MG is marked with Final Fire. The squad and leader are free to fire at another adjacent target as Final Fire. (Arnaud's question).
  3. If the whole stack wishes to fire together, then:
    • the stack may only fire at an adjacent target
    • the fire from the MG is considered sustained fire
    • the MG cannot gain ROF
    • the leader cannot direct the fire of this new fire group (adding his leadership modifier or preventing cowering)
  4. Assuming instead of (2) above that the MG did get ROF and did not cower, can the MG and squad do (3) above? That is, can they now form a FG and fire at an adjacent target?
Thanks!
/asad
 

EagleIV

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Note in the OP the MG can keep firing as long as it keeps rate. It is not limited to just 1 shot.
 

Doug Leslie

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  1. Correct
  2. Correct
  3. If firing as a stack, the target has to be adjacent since the squad is marked with first fire counter. The fire from the MG is not treated as sustained fire (I think that you might be confusing this situation with subsequent fire where firing a MG is so penalised). The MG can keep firing for as long as it retains ROF.
A8.4 FINAL FIRE: That portion of Defensive Fire which occurs during the DFPh is called Final Fire. During Final Fire any of the DEFENDER'S units/weapons that are not marked with a First, Final, Intensive, or No Fire counter may fire. Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefiting from PBF (or TPBF). A unit/weapon already marked with a Final Fire counter cannot fire during Final Fire. Final Fire affects all applicable units in a target Location—not just those that may have moved—but without any modifiers for FFNAM/FFMO.

And a Q&A-

"A8.4
During the defensive fire phase, a squad & MMG want to make fire attacks. The squad (only) is marked with a def first fire counter. Is it legal for the squad to fire his MMG at full FP vs a non-ADJACENT unit and then (provided it didn’t cower) have the squad use final fire at an ADJACENT unit? Would the answer be different if the situation was reversed? (MMG only is marked with a first fire counter, squad fires at non adjacent unit and then MMG final fires at adjacent unit.

A. Yes. No."




If the leader directed the attack that resulted in the squad having first fired, it cannot direct the stack in Final Fire- only the squad. If the leader did not direct the original attack, it can apply leadership to the combined Final Fire attack.

7.53 FIRE DIRECTION: A single leader cannot direct more than one weapon/unit per phase unless they are part of the same FG. Hence a squad that elects to use its inherent FP in a different attack than that of the MG it is manning does not get the leadership benefit if given to the MG instead. However, a leader can direct the fire of a MG as many times as the MG can fire, even if he also directed other units as part of a FG in the MG's previous attack. Leader direction used during Defensive First Fire can be used again in Subsequent First Fire, FPF, or Final Fire, but again only for one firing unit/SW or FG—and that unit/SW/FG can only include firers he directed during First Fire

4. Correct. The MG is not marked as having fired and can fire freely as Final Fire. Leadership restrictions remain as already stated. Note that the MG is not subject to any restricted CA that might have applied during the opponent's MPh if it fired from a building or woods.
 

Eagle4ty

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  1. Correct
  2. Correct
  3. If firing as a stack, the target has to be adjacent since the squad is marked with first fire counter. The fire from the MG is not treated as sustained fire (I think that you might be confusing this situation with subsequent fire where firing a MG is so penalised). The MG can keep firing for as long as it retains ROF.
A8.4 FINAL FIRE: That portion of Defensive Fire which occurs during the DFPh is called Final Fire. During Final Fire any of the DEFENDER'S units/weapons that are not marked with a First, Final, Intensive, or No Fire counter may fire. Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefiting from PBF (or TPBF). A unit/weapon already marked with a Final Fire counter cannot fire during Final Fire. Final Fire affects all applicable units in a target Location—not just those that may have moved—but without any modifiers for FFNAM/FFMO.

And a Q&A-

"A8.4
During the defensive fire phase, a squad & MMG want to make fire attacks. The squad (only) is marked with a def first fire counter. Is it legal for the squad to fire his MMG at full FP vs a non-ADJACENT unit and then (provided it didn’t cower) have the squad use final fire at an ADJACENT unit? Would the answer be different if the situation was reversed? (MMG only is marked with a first fire counter, squad fires at non adjacent unit and then MMG final fires at adjacent unit.

A. Yes. No."




If the leader directed the attack that resulted in the squad having first fired, it cannot direct the stack in Final Fire- only the squad. If the leader did not direct the original attack, it can apply leadership to the combined Final Fire attack.

7.53 FIRE DIRECTION: A single leader cannot direct more than one weapon/unit per phase unless they are part of the same FG. Hence a squad that elects to use its inherent FP in a different attack than that of the MG it is manning does not get the leadership benefit if given to the MG instead. However, a leader can direct the fire of a MG as many times as the MG can fire, even if he also directed other units as part of a FG in the MG's previous attack. Leader direction used during Defensive First Fire can be used again in Subsequent First Fire, FPF, or Final Fire, but again only for one firing unit/SW or FG—and that unit/SW/FG can only include firers he directed during First Fire

4. Correct. The MG is not marked as having fired and can fire freely as Final Fire. Leadership restrictions remain as already stated. Note that the MG is not subject to any restricted CA that might have applied during the opponent's MPh if it fired from a building or woods.
#2 is Incorrect as atomic has stated. If the MG is marked with a Final Fire Counter the Sqd & MG would be considered Final Fired (A8.3). Once a unit or its SW are marked with a Final Fire counter :...then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.J6"
 

Doug Leslie

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#2 is Incorrect as atomic has stated. If the MG is marked with a Final Fire Counter the Sqd & MG would be considered Final Fired (A8.3). Once a unit or its SW are marked with a Final Fire counter :...then that unit and all its SW/Guns are marked with a Final Fire counter.J6"
A8.3 doesn't apply here. That rules section is only dealing with Subsequent First Fire.

8.3 Whenever a unit uses Subsequent First Fire, it must use all MG/IFE in its possession (up to the unit's normal operation capabilities; 7.35-.353) as Subsequent First Fire or forfeit their use for the remainder of that Player Turn (barring FPF); a squad may not split its usable inherent FP from that of its MG/IFE during Subsequent First Fire unless it opts to not use the remaining FP/SW at all.

The relevant rules section is A8.4:

8.4 FINAL FIRE: That portion of Defensive Fire which occurs during the DFPh is called Final Fire. During Final Fire any of the DEFENDER'S units/weapons that are not marked with a First, Final, Intensive, or No Fire counter may fire. Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefiting from PBF (or TPBF). A unit/weapon already marked with a Final Fire counter cannot fire during Final Fire.

In the situation described, we are in the Defensive Fire Phase and there is a squad that has first fired armed with a MG that hasn't fired. Per 8.4, the MG is eligible to fire normally as final fire against any target while the squad can use area fire against a target in an adjacent hex. Once the MG fires and uses up its ROF, it is marked with a Final Fire counter. The squad however isn't and, in contrast with 8.3, there is nothing in 8.4 to prohibit it from splitting its inherent FP from the MG and using area fire against a different adjacent target.
 
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Larry

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Picking up on an old thread here after a recently played game. So, assuming the situation that Arnaud describes but adding a leader to the stack. The leader has fired with the squad in DFF. Are the following statements true?
  1. If the MG fires and rolls doubles (cowers) then the squad and leader cannot fire again because the whole stack gets Final Fired.
Thanks!
/asad
This one is incorrect. The leader is not involved in the firing of the MG. When the MG cowers, it and the unit that fired the MG are marked with a final fire counter. The leader, that did not fire, is unmarked and can take other actions.
 
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