Stauffenberg Speaks!

Fungwu

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There are 2 problems I ran into in combats, one was fortified German regiments that would never retreat. So for instance the combat would be 500 soviet rifle squads and 50 tanks vs 35 German rifle squads. Maybe 9 times out of 10 the result would be 3-10 German losses and the combat fails.

The other problem was that small fortified armor units would take virtually no casualties on defense, whether they retreated or not. For instance, an attack by 100 tanks against a unit of 20 flammpanzers, which have an Anti tank value of 0, and light armor. The German tanks would hold on for a long time, and if they did retreat they would never lose more than 2 tanks. The same problem occurred against stugs, but since flammpanzers have neither armor nor guns it puts the problem in more stark contrast.

Bob might be on to something and the reason that the attack fails is because the units give up before it begins, but they are on ignore losses. I guess there are only a few possibilities Either the attacking tanks aren't shooting at the defenders at all, or they are shooting but missing.

Even a totally crappy tank unit that gets beaten in combat will usually lose very few tanks as long as it is defending. Attacking tanks however seem to take a reasonable amount of casualties.

In terms of realism it all isn't very good. For instance, 36 rifle squads is only about a battalion. So it would be pretty difficult for a battalion to defend a 10km front against 2 or 3 divisions. If you switched the scale to 2.5km a hex instead of 10km and used the exact same forces the result would be the Germans could only cover 1 hex out of 4 and the Soviets would either surround them before the combat began, or bypass them completely. Turn the scale up a little and that same battalion can defend the area, perhaps even better than a regiment would because the battalion will take less casualties from artillery. I don't think fiddling the scale up or down should completely change the dynamics of the battle, but it does.

There is already a penalty for having too much density in a hex, I think part of the solution is adding a penalty for having too little.
 

ralphtrickey

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There is already a penalty for having too much density in a hex, I think part of the solution is adding a penalty for having too little.
There already is. If you don't have enough equipment to cover the frontage of the hex, you're considered 'flanked' which puts your passive equipment at risk among other things.
 

L`zard

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Ralph,

Here's a quote from McB concerning his take on the issue:

"I deliberately saved the round before last to use as an illustration of the overrun problem. There were no less than 6-7 German infantry and AT ants that had been pounded for 5 rounds, taken 75-90% losses ot more with a strength of "1", unentrenched, all with a massive Soviet fresh mech bde beside it strength of 28+... not one overrun was possible.

Only the shock and super careful turn management allowed me to finally get the loss meter swinging up on your side as well. Mine were WWI Somme level. Catastrophic really. The airpower balance is totally off and the LW has decimated the VVS and I had a hard time getting at your artillery. Artillery support effects are absurd here.

I am quite firm in my conclusions about TOAW III having a really messed up combat algorithm or whatever, and absurd retreat/entrenchment and overrun dynamics."

D.

Take this for what it's worth, I've asked him to try and find the .sal in question....

At the end of the day, what we have is a designer unwilling to upgrade his scenarios due to percieved faults in the game engine.

Considering the body of work in question, that's kind of a pity, neh?

Kurt
 
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Fungwu

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I did a little testing using DNO. I fortified some german armor units and attacked them with some soviet units. There were no supporting air or artillery, both sides had good supply and readiness. The terrain was open. Shock was 125 German to 80 soviet though.
All the attacks showed the attributes of absurdly low defender casualties, but I will just post the results of the most lopsided combat.

The defending unit was a German flamethrower tank unit fortified in open ground with no support of any kind. The attackers were two soviet armored divisions. Soviet proficiency was 50% German proficiency was 73. Both sides were on ignore losses.


For reference the pzII flamethrower variant has a armor value of 3 and an anti armor value of 0. Also in the unit were some HMGs and AA guns, the highest German anti armor value was 2.

On the soviet side the best tank was the Kv1 with an anti armor value of 7 and an armor of 9.

The strengths of each side were

Axis:

3 20mm SPAAG
14 tracked HMG scout
8 sdkz 251
20 pzII (flame)

Soviet:

74 T26
56 T-28
43 BT-7
48 KV-1
39 KVII
276 T-34
In case you weren't keeping count that is 536 soviet tanks.

The question is what is a realistic result of 536 soviet tanks attacking 20 fortified German tanks with an AT value of 0 and 17 HMGs and AA carriers with an AT value of 2, which cannot penetrate the T34s or KVs at all?

Well here is what happened.

Axis casualties:

1 20mm SPAAG
1 Sdkz 251

Soviet casualties:
8 T-26
4 BT-7
1 Kv1
1 KV2
3 T34

I proceeded to attack 2 or 3 more times with similar results.
 

Bob Cross

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Ralph,

Here's a quote from McB concerning his take on the issue:

"I deliberately saved the round before last to use as an illustration of the overrun problem. There were no less than 6-7 German infantry and AT ants that had been pounded for 5 rounds, taken 75-90% losses ot more with a strength of "1", unentrenched, all with a massive Soviet fresh mech bde beside it strength of 28+... not one overrun was possible.

Only the shock and super careful turn management allowed me to finally get the loss meter swinging up on your side as well. Mine were WWI Somme level. Catastrophic really. The airpower balance is totally off and the LW has decimated the VVS and I had a hard time getting at your artillery. Artillery support effects are absurd here.

I am quite firm in my conclusions about TOAW III having a really messed up combat algorithm or whatever, and absurd retreat/entrenchment and overrun dynamics."

D.

Take this for what it's worth, I've asked him to try and find the .sal in question....

At the end of the day, what we have is a designer unwilling to upgrade his scenarios due to percieved faults in the game engine.

Considering the body of work in question, that's kind of a pity, neh?

Kurt
I'd like to know what loss tolerances he was using. As I've posted, this sort of problem can often be traced to those choices.

As to overruns, I'm sure that once a defender has thwarted one overrun attempt it then takes special circumstances to make it eligible to be overrun again that turn (and I think there are good reasons for it to be that way - it prevents abuse). I'm not totally clear on just what those circumstances are (being forced to retreat would be one). Obviously, if those defenders hadn't retreated, then they must have passed previous overrun attempts, making further overrun attempts problematic.
 

L`zard

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I was wrong about one item:

The playtest McB is referring to would be BERLIN: Götterdämmerung im Osten, 1944-45 rather than Braunschweig, eh?
 

L`zard

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I'd like to know what loss tolerances he was using. As I've posted, this sort of problem can often be traced to those choices.

As to overruns, I'm sure that once a defender has thwarted one overrun attempt it then takes special circumstances to make it eligible to be overrun again that turn (and I think there are good reasons for it to be that way - it prevents abuse). I'm not totally clear on just what those circumstances are (being forced to retreat would be one). Obviously, if those defenders hadn't retreated, then they must have passed previous overrun attempts, making further overrun attempts problematic.
Bob;

With all due respect, both of these scenarios are McB creations, eh? (DNO, GiO) and the part referring to GiO is quoted from playtests, eh?

If said scenarios are even worth talking about, one would imagine that the designer having problems during conversion from acow to toaw III revision should be all that need be said.

One would truely imagine that 'playtests' include a number of reloads to try each of the settings when a problem is discovered, nichtwahr?

After all, note the header for this thread, eh?

The only thing of interest here is whether or not McBride updates his previous body of work, and when.

All other aspects refer to patches etc, and should more likely be attached to a "support" thread, or have a thread of thier own, eh?

This isn't supposed to be a 'slam' thread, eh? AND certainly isn't as far as my own viewpoint goes...........

I respect your viewpoint, but 'duh', when it's the scenario designer???

:OHNO:
 

Olorin4

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I agree with Lizard. If the creator of some of the best scenarios has run into problems with the combat algorithm and if said perceived problems are enough to deter him from upgrading his scenarios, I think it warrants a careful look by the designers at the issues discussed here. Dismissing them by saying "there is nothing wrong, you are not playing well" is not very productive.

All I want is our favorite game to become even better. If you take away McB scenarios from TOAW, then the game becomes worse not better, imo.

I also agree with Lizard, that this discussion should be moved to another thread.

Peace to all.
 

Bob Cross

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I did a little testing using DNO. I fortified some german armor units and attacked them with some soviet units. There were no supporting air or artillery, both sides had good supply and readiness. The terrain was open. Shock was 125 German to 80 soviet though.

The defending unit was a German flamethrower tank unit fortified in open ground with no support of any kind. The attackers were two soviet armored divisions. Soviet proficiency was 50% German proficiency was 73. Both sides were on ignore losses.
I had to try and recreate this myself using my copy of DNO, so there may be some variance from exactly what you had. I assumed you just used units already available on turn 1 of DNO (based on the shock values).

The attached screenshot shows the attack that I generated. However, note that the Axis unit had 100% readiness and 150% supply. The Soviet units had 60% readiness and 70% supply - in addition to the huge shock differential (1.25/.8 = 1.56). (I don't know if that's the same as what you were using - it's not clear in your post). As a result, note that the combat odds were 34:5 - less than 7:1. Considering that the fortified status gives a bonus of 8:1 to the defender, the net odds were actually less than one. And the attacker armor strengths were about 24, total, so that ratio was even worse.

Nevertheless, my results weren't quite as bad as yours, although I never could dislodge the defender.

I next tried adding the adjacent mech unit to the attack (second screenshot). That should get the odds at least into positive territory, plus it guarantees a flanking bonus.

That attack usually successfully dislodged the defender, as shown in the third screenshot. That makes me suspect that the first attack was not getting the flanking bonus that can be generated from the unit being too small. Apparently, it was big enough for a 10km hex.
 

Bob Cross

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Bob;

With all due respect, both of these scenarios are McB creations, eh? (DNO, GiO) and the part referring to GiO is quoted from playtests, eh?

If said scenarios are even worth talking about, one would imagine that the designer having problems during conversion from acow to toaw III revision should be all that need be said.

One would truely imagine that 'playtests' include a number of reloads to try each of the settings when a problem is discovered, nichtwahr?

After all, note the header for this thread, eh?

The only thing of interest here is whether or not McBride updates his previous body of work, and when.

All other aspects refer to patches etc, and should more likely be attached to a "support" thread, or have a thread of thier own, eh?

This isn't supposed to be a 'slam' thread, eh? AND certainly isn't as far as my own viewpoint goes...........

I respect your viewpoint, but 'duh', when it's the scenario designer???

:OHNO:
First, as to who hijacked the thread, refer to posts 49, 50, 51, 53, 54, & 55.

Second, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this issue. It's like detective work. All we've gotten so far is about the same as the 911 call. We don't know just what has happened until the CSI gets to the scene. First thing to check is the playing styles of the playtesters. Next, we look for bugs in the scenarios. Last, only when clear, repeatable, proof has been found, do we look at the code.
 

L`zard

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First, as to who hijacked the thread, refer to posts 49, 50, 51, 53, 54, & 55.

Second, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this issue. It's like detective work. All we've gotten so far is about the same as the 911 call. We don't know just what has happened until the CSI gets to the scene. First thing to check is the playing styles of the playtesters. Next, we look for bugs in the scenarios. Last, only when clear, repeatable, proof has been found, do we look at the code.
Peace, Dude!

My comments about the patches etc were meant to mean that perhaps a separate thread is a better place for them, just so they don't disapear behind the main line of this thread, eh?

Far be it from me to get nasty about thread usage in/on these forums, eh?
We're all pretty much family by now, lol! Otherwise we wouldn't bother to post at all, eh?

I'm in playtesting myself, so I get you point about how the process works.

My point had to do with a reasonable assurity that McB was testing his own scenario to destruction, eh? I'd assume that the 'testers' would go round after round, reloading were neccesary in order to determine where a fault might exist if one was suspected.

Daniel and Ralph can get into this better than You and I, neh?

Merry Christmas!

K
 

Olorin4

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From the thread "Multiplayer II:The Great War"

LOL!
As to the 'Mighty Quinn'...things continue to develop, but none of you will see any of it until after the next patch and some testing is my guess, at the very earliest!
I'll be buggered if 'I'm' going to let the cat out of the bag!
What part of 'non-disclosure-pact' don't you understand? :smoke:
Sort of an 'usual',...........at least w/McBride.....lol!
Which is interesting as this is a 'run' of a 2.1 ver scenario, and 'the Great One' now has a 2.5 version, including a compleatly new 'map'...and revised 'Naval Rules' (something that was more than once a reason to bail out!)....

L'zard, any news from the front? Or is there a nda? :D
 

L`zard

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From the thread "Multiplayer II:The Great War"
L'zard, any news from the front? Or is there a nda? :D
Nick,

I'm quite sure nothing will come out of McB until after the next patch. He'll want to see if the problems he was having get cured befor he puts and more effort into any ToaW design work.....:bite:

You can bet that as soon as there's something final with the patch launch that I'll be lighting a fire under him as best I can!

NDA, McBride? LOL, he even has a nda w/himself! Were I to blab anything in detail on a forum, I'd have to move somewhere really distant inside of 24 hrs just to avoid the assassins!!!!

:clown::clown::clown::clown:
 

L`zard

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From the RD forum:

Stauffenberg is back!
Drang nach Osten 1942 - The Last Blitzkrieg

5 km/ half-week turn; regiment/division level.
May 17th 1942 to February 1943.
Map from Kursk to Baku, Volga to Crimea. Huge and quite detailed.

Scenario starts with Soviets committed in the Izyum bulge, Manstein moving to Sevastopol after victory at Kerch.
Large range of variables both sides--this is not Plan Blue, although a theatre option will allow a strictly historical model to be played out.
Far more wide open than Blue although it is still a southern front offensive for the Germans in '42--no assault on Moscow.

Status:
--map done, Axis OB done, Soviet OB over half done with a huge assist from Pavel Voylov, which means a --near complete array of accurate Soviet sub-units.
--I'm applying many new features that Ralph has put in the program, in particular altering ZOC costs at various junctures.
--Initial playtests in a month or two.

I'll be posting updates and information here regularly.
Feb, 9th 2010 — Stauffenberg

______________________________________

Considering that I'm one of McBride's 'playtesters', this is only ONE of the scenarios he's working on. One can only hope that Ralph's boys get the 'patch' done, eh?


:smoke:
 

Silvanski

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From the RD forum:

Stauffenberg is back!
Drang nach Osten 1942 - The Last Blitzkrieg
Caucasus mayhem yeeehaw!!! I remember that he once made one for this theater called Braunschweig...
Looking forward to this one... although probably not for play vs the PO hmmm?
 

Stauffenberg

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Caucasus mayhem yeeehaw!!! I remember that he once made one for this theater called Braunschweig...
Looking forward to this one... although probably not for play vs the PO hmmm?
Not unless Matrix pays me, and that is about as likely as Me 262s in the scenario.
 

L`zard

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What, you have the time to harrass Sil?

Where's the playtest turn........Mhwahaha!

:smoke:
 

L`zard

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LOL!

BERLIN ~Götterdämmerung im Osten 1944-45 (2.3ver)

Or are you putting in all your effort on the new one...............:p
 
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