Indo-Pakistan War

[Major Banned]

Some observations on the new Indo-Pakistan War scenario that Wolfe Tone and I are playing.

The Viraat has reappeared after being sunk on turn 3, we are currently on turn 12. The Pakistani Navy has returned for the most part after being sunk on turn 3. Some of the EEV objectives are not showing up as captured by the Pakistanis. Also some events are showing up in the news reports a few turns after they have occurred.

Nothing major, overall it is a excellent scenario. Will report more if found and if Dan or anyone would like copies of the turns, they are available. I would definetely play this scenario again, and would suggest it for anyone looking for a well designed, modern scenario.

[Wolfe Tone]

YES A GREAT GAME.....LIKE THE EASTERN FRONT WITH CURRY ( SORRY!)

SERIOUSLY THOUGH I WOULD RECOMMEND THIS SCENARIO TO ANYONE LOOKING FOR A GAME WITH PLENTY OF UNITS AND ACTION PLUS NUMEROUS CRITICAL DECISIONS TO BE MADE.

SO FAR BOTH SIDES ARE HOLDING THEIR OWN OVERALL. THE PAKISTANIS HAVE ADVANCED ACROSS THE THAR DESERT AND TAKEN A NUMBER OF CITIES BUT THEIR ADVANCE HAS SLOWED SOMEWHAT. AT THE SEA AND IN THE AIR THE ADVANTAGE IS WITH THE INDIANS.

[Twoblade]

woh buddy, no need to 'shout'. :) Only newbies type in all caps.:D

[Dan Neely]

Is your capslock key broken Wolfetone?

[Don Maddox]

Perhaps you guys would consider keeping some notes and few screens and give us an AAR after the dust settles. We haven't had any new AARs for a while.

[Wolfe Tone]

Is that better?

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Maddog
Perhaps you guys would consider keeping some notes and few screens and give us an AAR after the dust settles. We haven't had any new AARs for a while.

I wish we would have thought about it before we started, although I've been saving turns since the beginning, so it could be easy to reconstruct.

[Don Maddox]

Originally posted by DonShafer


I wish we would have thought about it before we started, although I've been saving turns since the beginning, so it could be easy to reconstruct.

Well, I for one shall be interested to read it if you two decide to do it. I know Daniel would like to see it also.

[Wolfe Tone]

Well I've never done an AAR before where I had to factor in the maps so if that could be explained then I would not mind giving it a try. I have kept all the game files.

So far we have reached turn 15 ( about 45 days of combat ) with both sides still holding their own. However for the first time Pakistani losses have exceeded the Indian and this on a smaller OOB. So I am somewhat hopeful that victory can be achieved. I have repeatedly warned the Pakis to slow their advance across the Thar if they wish to avoid our use of weapons of mass destruction, but one wonders if the message is getting through!

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
Well I've never done an AAR before where I had to factor in the maps so if that could be explained then I would not mind giving it a try. I have kept all the game files.

So far we have reached turn 15 ( about 45 days of combat ) with both sides still holding their own. However for the first time Pakistani losses have exceeded the Indian and this on a smaller OOB. So I am somewhat hopeful that victory can be achieved. I have repeatedly warned the Pakis to slow their advance across the Thar if they wish to avoid our use of weapons of mass destruction, but one wonders if the message is getting through!

I too would be interested in giving it a try at an AAR. Let's see what we can do Karl! It could be fun!
As far as the Indian warnings of using WMD, we've heard them since the beginning of the conflict and have come to the conclusion that they are hollow threats. Only 20 EEV points stand between Pakistan and the peace they so rightly deserve. You threatened to use them before the fall of Jaisalmer, it fell, and we still have not felt the repercussions that were supposed to come. Jammu and Baimer have been liberated, and still no nuclear bombs have fallen. We sent the pride of the navy, the Viraat, to the bottom of the Arabian Sea, and no nuclear weapons have been fired. The Indian nuclear sabre does not exist. It is an empty threat.

[Don Maddox]

I wouldn't mind trying this scenario if anyone is interested. The rate of play will probably be a little on the slow side for my part. If anyone is interested let me know.

[Stauffenberg]

Good to have some feedback on that one and an AAR would be nice. I think it is one of the most volatile situations I have ever worked on and the limited number of playtests I went through yielded wildly variable results.

D.

[Don Maddox]

Hi,

Would love to play it, I am happy to be either side. Drop me a line if you are still looking for an opponent.

Cheers
Richard

Okay, turn 1 on the way. :freak:

[Don Maddox]

For those who are interested, the battle between myself and Richard ended in an overwhelming victory for Richard. I played India and he had Pakistan.

Scenario notes

Right from the beginning the situation began to deteriorate in the south. My forces there were pretty thin, but Richard relentlessly advanced in that area and I just couldn't get any sort of defense going.

In the north it was stalemate for a while, but eventually I expended a lot of my forces in useless and bloody attempts to drive him out of the mountains. I paid dearly for that and by turn 8 I was in trouble here as well.

In the center my forces were fairly strong and I made some progress, but eventually I started to get wore down. Richard was able to turn my flank and capture a lot of key terrain. I was really never able to recover from this loss and the game ended early with an overwhelming victory to Pakistan.

Conclusion

This is a very complicated scenario with a huge amount of possibilities. Out of all the potential theater options I only used the naval blockade option. It was a disaster and achieved nothing in the long run other than to distract Richard from his progress elsewhere.

Each player needs to be highly aggressive and willing to take some serious risks in order to achive a victory in this one. Neither side is in an overwhelming position of strength. I was seriously considering using nuclear weapons, but the scenario ended so suddenly I never had the chance. I have doubts that they would have altered the outcome by much.

Is anyone else currently playing this one?

[Stauffenberg]

Even with the Arjun heavy tank you lost???

I have played that through three times and each game was very different. On paper India has a strong edge--in practice, an aggressive and skilled Pakistani player will make the scenario seem weighted in the other direction in terms of balance. As I said in the notes, it is a volatile situation and I made sure the map scale does justice to the amount of space both sides have to cover.

It would be good if some detailled AARs could come out of this as there are plans to link scenarios listings with extant AARs down the road, as you know.

D.

[Wolfe Tone]

Here is my incomplete AAR from my game with ‘Major Catastrophe’ sometime ago…

Indo-Pak War 2002

This scenario covers a possible Indo-Pak War in the summer of 2002. The front lines stretch from the Siachen glacier in the Himalayas through Kashmir, The Punjab, into the Thar Desert and down to the Gulf of Kutch on the Indian Ocean.
A glance at the map will show that from a military point of view the nature of the terrain encountered along the front lines will dictate any offensive action. From a practical viewpoint this means that attacks undertaken in the mountains will prove to be costly and probably not very productive in terms of territory gained. This in effect means that the bulk of the fighting is going to take place on the plains of the Punjab and in the Thar. Further south the coastal region is just too soft going for tanks and armoured vehicles.
Taking the Indian side in this I decided that my main strategy would be based around attacks on a broad front with the object of bringing the Pakistani forces to battle and defeating them. Due to the allocation of victory points to particular urban locations this line of approach promised to yield a better result. Most of the Pakistani VP locations are well protected either by large forces or very difficult terrain. On the other hand a number of Indian VP ones are wide open to aggressive attacks by the Pak forces. This was something I had to guard against, as the Event Engine Variable once it reached 100 would give Pakistan an automatic victory. I also decided before starting to use the Air strike against Pak Air Command and the sea blockade of Karachi Theatre Options ASAP.
The first turn (each turn of one half-week) was taken up by pre-war maneuvers as each side moved its forces up to the front lines. War broke out on 10 June following a Pakistani sponsored major terrorist attack on India. Notwithstanding my ‘Broad Front Strategy’ I decided there was at least some Pak territory that could be seized relatively cost free and would be of strategic value. This was the region around the Mangla reservoir, NW of the Kashmiri city of Jammu. Gaining territory here would help to protect the road leading from the bridge at Akhnur up into the Kashmir Valley. This met with success and my forces were able to drive deep into Pakistani territory. Further north an Indian force pressed across the LOC (line of control) towards the city of Muzaffarabad. However I did not expect the Pak High Command to yield here easily as this is the capital of their puppet state of ‘Azad Kashmir’. In the region around Amritsar /Lahore in the Punjab, I decided to leave things stand as both sides had major forces deployed here and any attacks were bound to be costly in what in all probability would be a slugfest. Further south attacks were launched against the town of Kasur, north of the major city of Ferozepore, but the effects were nugatory. It is where the front lines run into the sands of the Thar Desert that things started to get interesting, as the possibilities for a major outflanking attack are open to both sides. Intelligence reports indicated that the Pakistanis were deploying a large group of armoured forces to sweep through behind my open flank to the south of the city of Anupgarh.
Another area of concern was the isolated Indian cities situated on the ‘wrong’ side of the Thar, which were wide open to determined Paki attacks. There was not a lot I could do in the short term as the Paki military had deployed major forces here with the intent of taking as much territory as possible.
By turn 4 of the game (17 June) the Pakistani forces were beginning to make some progress across the Thar. The cities of Birailpur, Dhanana, Tanot and Ghotaru had all been attacked with Ghotaru falling on June 14. Tanot was under siege with no hope of relief. The city of Kishangarh also fell. Further fighting continued around the Mangla reservoir region with the Pakis gearing up for a major counter attack. In northern Kashmir the Pakis had tried to seize Kanzalwan but were beaten off. I still continued to attack on a broad front without too much success. My attempts to take Kasur were unsuccessful. The casualty rate strongly favoured the Pakistanis by a 7/39 ratio. At sea the situation was somewhat better with a naval blockade of Karachi in place while in the air the PAF was taking a 90% shock penalty due to my use of the Theatre Option.
By 1 July it was obvious that the Pakistanis were gaining the upper hand. They continued to press their attacks across a broad front and were meeting with a high degree of success. Around Barmer the Pak 2nd Armoured Division had almost surrounded the city where the remnants of my 12th Inf. Division backed by some 12th Corps troops were just holding out. Jaisalmer (+20) was completely surrounded and I had only an MP battalion to defend the place. To make things even worse there was nothing bar a railway repair battalion to stop the Pakis advancing on Phalodi further east. Bikaner to the northeast was however beginning to see reinforcements arrive from the Indian Territorial Army (4 battalions), which eased my concerns on this sector of the front. To the south of Anupgarh to enemy as expected had tried to swing round my open desert flank but had been checked by the Indian 1st armoured + 4th infantry divisions backed by the Guards mech. Brigade and 22 Infantry division. Sri Ganganagar was under threat from a Paki arm. column but was well defended by the 28th mountain. Div.
To the north there was heavy fighting on the Jammu front as the Pakistanis continued their push towards that city. On the Akhnur/Mangla axis the Pakistanis continued their counter attacks but their 9th arm brigade was trapped behind Indian lines and is due for annihilation. In the Kashmir valley fighting continued with the Pakistanis taking Kanzalwan. At sea a somewhat resurgent Pakistani Navy was on the verge of launching an amphibious assault on the port of Jakhau. However this threat was dealt with when within a few days the Indian Navy sunk the assault force along with the accompanying naval escort. Notwithstanding a few minor successes in the making things were critical for me now. The losses ratio was standing at 103/177 against me, that is nearly 2 to 1. At such a rate it would be only a matter of time before the Pakis had the upper hand. It was only in the air India still held a commanding lead with an air superiority of roughly twice that of the PAF.
Never did finish the AAR but it ended in a draw. I managed to hold off the Paki attacks, probably because he could not replace his losses as fast as I could. Also my opponent attacked many times at low odds in the middle and end games, which cost him dear. This lesson I had learned earlier in the game and thus was more cautious as the campaign went on about taking unnecessary casualties. Casualties were about equal on both sides at the end, so that was a big improvement for me overall. This meant that a higher proportion of the Pakistani forces were gone in relation to mine, a real war of Attrition! Reading the casualty reports the Pakistanis were on their last legs before a Truce came into effect. I think a few more turns would have seen them cut and run! Despite my numerous threats to Nuke the enemy forces advancing across the Thar I never did go that far as by calling up the Indian T.A. I managed to hold off his forces, but it was a close run thing! Also I found the Indian helicopter forces useful for raiding behind his lines.
I thought it was a great scenario.
For both sides there are so many units to think about, attacks to be made, places to defend, the naval war, the air war, the rocket war, and the Nuke option. It is over most of the map, but it is in the Thar that the front opens out and a real maneuver battle can take place. Around Amritsar/Lahore the opposing forces are too well dug in and things here tend to be very much of a slugfest. In Kashmir there is only limited room for maneuver, but the Indians are hard put to hold off the Pakistani forces attacking from the north while simultaneously trying to attack eastwards themselves into POK.
The one thing I came away from this game thinking was that if all wars are nuts/insane then a current war between India and Pakistan would win first prize for stupidity given the huge levels of poverty in both countries

[Don Maddox]

Do you have any screen shots of this battle? Might make a good article for the AAR section.

[Stauffenberg]

Yes I second that--an excellent description and I sent a copy of it on to Ravi Rikhye at Orbat.com as I know he has a keen interest in this theatre. He was a great help to me with the OBs on this btw and he runs an excellent site.

If you have saved game files someone else could put together some images to have this AAR put up as it shouldn't be wasted.

D.

[Siberian HEAT]

Originally posted by Stauffenberg
Yes I second that--an excellent description and I sent a copy of it on to Ravi Rikhye at Orbat.com as I know he has a keen interest in this theatre. He was a great help to me with the OBs on this btw and he runs an excellent site.

If you have saved game files someone else could put together some images to have this AAR put up as it shouldn't be wasted.

D.

I've collaborated with Wolfe Tone on another AAR and would be more than willing to help him out if requested to get a few images inserted. :smoke:

[Wolfe Tone]

Alas I have already deleted my files on this game.

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
Alas I have already deleted my files on this game.
I've still have them! Unfortunately, I've been somewhat lax on my end to working on the AAR for the scenario. Karl, if you could send me a copy of what you have written up, I can fill in my side of the AAR and I can send the files to whoever would like to select the images.

[Stauffenberg]

I suppose it might come off as shameless self-promotion, but I'll select the images if nobody else steps forward. I imagine the ever-stalwart Tim McBride would agree to put up the finished AAR.

D.

[Tim McBride]

Originally posted by Stauffenberg
I suppose it might come off as shameless self-promotion, but I'll select the images if nobody else steps forward. I imagine the ever-stalwart Tim McBride would agree to put up the finished AAR.

D.

Not a problem, I'll be intrested to see how it worked out. Since in my own playing of this scenario I got whooped and resorted to nucelar weapons..................


_Tim

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Tim McBride


Not a problem, I'll be intrested to see how it worked out. Since in my own playing of this scenario I got whooped and resorted to nucelar weapons..................


_Tim

No joy! The game ended up a draw and no matter how many EEV points I gained (I got up to 80), I could not prod Wolfe Tone into pushing the big red shiny button. But it was a good game, the house rules were observed to a "T", despite the fact that the Pakistani navy and the Viraat were miraculously dragged up from the bottom of the Indian Ocean.