Unsupplied units.

[rasmus]

I know this is covered somewhere, but I am feeling a bit lazy.

If I as player one surround player twos units and then evaporates them all within the same turn, will his equipment go back to his replacement pool or be lost for good?

[JAMiAM]

If they are in a one hex pocket, i.e., completely surrounded by enemy units, or impassable terrain, the equipment is lost, regardless of the supply status of the units.

If they are unsupplied at the start of the turn, then any equipment lost through movement, or combat, goes into the lost column.

Until either of those two conditions are met, some proportion will go into the on hand column.

[rasmus]

Thanks :thumup:

[Kraut]

If they are in a one hex pocket, i.e., completely surrounded by enemy units, or impassable terrain, the equipment is lost, regardless of the supply status of the units.

If they are unsupplied at the start of the turn, then any equipment lost through movement, or combat, goes into the lost column.

Until either of those two conditions are met, some proportion will go into the on hand column.

Wrong, if the unit was flagged as supplied at the beginning of the turn large quantities will go to the replacement pool, regardless whether the unit was totally surrounded or not.

I tested that just recently in a test scenario, so I am pretty certain :)

[JAMiAM]

Wrong, if the unit was flagged as supplied at the beginning of the turn large quantities will go to the replacement pool, regardless whether the unit was totally surrounded or not.

I tested that just recently in a test scenario, so I am pretty certain :)

Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry and wasn't precise.

If it is supplied, and in a one hex pocket, all equipment still retained by the unit, immediately before it fails the morale checks which lead to its evaporation, will be lost. In the combat losses, up to that check, some proportion (usually about a third of the combat losses) will be recoverable.

Do this as a test, load Arracourt '44 in hotseat. If you want a conclusive test, run it in TOAWlog mode, to check the results. Move the 113th AT/AA from (13,12) to (7,9). Leave in mobile deployment. Check the amount of equipment in the unit, and write it down. End turn. As the Americans, move the TD unit in (8,10) to (8,9). Move the tank co in (5,9) to (7,7), then to (8,8). Move the HQ in (4,11) to (6,7), then to (7,8). Move the tank co in (4,11) to (6,9). Set the artillery unit in (4,11) to fire at the 113th AT/AA at ignore losses. Have the 4 units in (6,8), (6,9), (7,10), and (8,9) all make ignore loss attacks against the 113th AT/AA unit. You'll find that the vast majority of the equipment will be lost, rather than recovered, as confirmed when you check the loss column on the next available German turn. If you run the TOAWlog, you'll notice that what happens is that the combat losses that occur before the unit evaporates, are distributed between destroyed and damaged results, going respectively into the lost and on hand columns of the inventory. What else remains in the unit when it evaporates in a one hex pocket will be lost though.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Kraut]

uups, missread your post, your are right, all equipment involved in combat before the unit evaporates is distributed between destroyed and replacement pool, in my test 98% of the equipment patricipated in combat before the unit evaporated so roughly 1/3 was saved despite beeing completely surrounded.

[Kraut]

I did a test with force1: 1000 Irregular Squads, force2: 200 brummbär per unit:

force 1 supplied but surrounded:

754 Irregular Squad destroyed
228 sent to replacement pool

than the unit evaporated.

The same scenario but now I waited one turn so that the surrounded unit was flagged unsupplied:

981 Irregular Squad destroyed
0 sent to replacement pool

than the unit evaporated.

[a white rabbit]

..it's a bit more complex than above, the "surrounded so out of supply" only occurs in the following player turn..eg surround in T1, surrounded unit out of supply in same player phase T2. If a unit is out of supply then all squads are lost, if not then a % go back in pool..

[JAMiAM]

..it's a bit more complex than above, the "surrounded so out of supply" only occurs in the following player turn..eg surround in T1, surrounded unit out of supply in same player phase T2...
This is incorrect. All units supply states are checked during the automatic bookkeeping phase between player 2's turn N, and player 1's turn N+1. Units flagged as either supplied or unsupplied at that time and regardless of friendly or enemy action during turn N+1, those units remain in the same supplied/unsupplied state throughout the entire turn. Thus, player two will be affected by an unsupplied status before the start of his player turn - contrary to your implied claim.

The ability to influence the supply state on the following turn is asymmetrical, and favors player two in most cases, since he always moves secondly and has the last opportunity to restore supply to his own troops, or to cut the supply of player one. It is one of the very few advantages to being player two, and should not be underestimated, or underutilized by clever players.

[a white rabbit]

This is incorrect. All units supply states are checked during the automatic bookkeeping phase between player 2's turn N, and player 1's turn N+1. Units flagged as either supplied or unsupplied at that time and regardless of friendly or enemy action during turn N+1, those units remain in the same supplied/unsupplied state throughout the entire turn. Thus, player two will be affected by an unsupplied status before the start of his player turn - contrary to your implied claim.

The ability to influence the supply state on the following turn is asymmetrical, and favors player two in most cases, since he always moves secondly and has the last opportunity to restore supply to his own troops, or to cut the supply of player one. It is one of the very few advantages to being player two, and should not be underestimated, or underutilized by clever players.

..thanks for the detail..still remains that out-of-supply doesn't kick in till T2..

..and yes, player2 has an advantage in having more control of the supply situation

[JAMiAM]

..still remains that out-of-supply doesn't kick in till T2..
Incorrect. Supply is checked before the start of player one's player turn on turn one of every scenario.

For examples of this, you can check out Norm's Korea '50-'51 scenario on the COW disk. The North Koreans start with a couple of commando units behind South Korean lines at (24,38) and (25,41) that are out of supply. The South Koreans have a couple of units at (5,38) that likewise cannot trace supply at the start of turn 1 and are marked as out of supply.

[Mantis]

I think perhaps he meant that if you complete a surround, the out of supply condition is not in effect until the following turn?

[06 Maestro]

Has anyone checked to see what percentage of losses are sent to the pool from normal, supplied movement?

[Smike Mcloud]

1) What happens with equipment if a unit is just surrouned but not attacked?
2) What is the influence of the supply column? If I have a unit surrounded, and the supply column is within 6 hexes, would the surrounded unit be supplied?

[nemo]

1) What happens with equipment if a unit is just surrouned but not attacked?
2) What is the influence of the supply column? If I have a unit surrounded, and the supply column is within 6 hexes, would the surrounded unit be supplied?
Quoting the manual (page 33, italics mine) : 'Unsupplied units with very low supply and readiness levels are subject to desertion effects. Deserting troops and equipment are lost permanently. They are not placed in the replacement pool. The number of deserters increases as supply and readiness levels decrease, and decreases with higher unit proficiencies. Desertions tend to start slowly (particularly in high proficiency units) and accelerate over time'. Lesson : get them out of there quick!
From a test run a few days ago, no, even if a supply unit is within the surrounded area.