Help with Blitzkreig

[Raver]

Having some trouble with the Blitzkreig scenario at the moment. I've played this a few times before, and never had any problems, but this time, we have a bizarre situation where my opponents replacement rate is about 200 while mine is 50. The briefing says that taking minor country capitals results in a change of 25, and the Green capital is currently in his hands, but I reakon that should make the rate 125 to 75.

Anyone else have a similar problem? Is this a bug or something I dont know about?

[JAMiAM]

IIRC, it was supply that was tied to the capture of the minor country capitals, and replacements were tied to the city hexes of the respective countries. Have you lost any home country cities?

Too lazy to run the scenario through the editor and check the event structure at the moment...

[Raver]

Ah, I was hoping you would reply. IIRC you had a bit to do with the remake of the scenario.

I havent lost any home cities at all, in fact the only thing really setting us apart at the moment is that I keep losing the Green capital and then retaking it.

The briefing states that minor capitals are worth 25 replacements + supply - doesnt mention other cities in minor countries.

[JMS]

Having some trouble with the Blitzkreig scenario at the moment. I've played this a few times before, and never had any problems, but this time, we have a bizarre situation where my opponents replacement rate is about 200 while mine is 50. The briefing says that taking minor country capitals results in a change of 25, and the Green capital is currently in his hands, but I reakon that should make the rate 125 to 75.

Anyone else have a similar problem? Is this a bug or something I dont know about?

Sounds like one of the events is on a loop. Everytime your oponent retakes the city, the 25% apply.

[Raindem]

Constant recapturing of cities might well push the replacement modifiers beyond what I intended, since the changes are always a percentage of current values.

Could you send me a save file and I'll try to see what's going on. circ@sprynet.com

Thanks,

Curt

[Raver]

Thanks Curt! Email sent.

[Raindem]

You mentioned that the replacement levels were 50 and 200, but in the turn you sent me they were 64 and 156.

I don't have the beginning turns to be sure but here's how they could have gotten to those levels:

Turn 1: Blue captures 2 capitals and Red captures 1. Because of the way the events are set up (see briefing) Blue only gets credit for 1. Thus the replacment rates are still 100 vs 100 on Turn 2.

Turn 2: Blue (having already taken the 2 capitals within reach) doesn't capture any, and Red captures it's second capital. Blue Repl = 75, Red = 125.

Turn 3: No capitals change hands.

Turn 4: Red takes Green's capital. Blue = 56, Red = 156.

That is the situation for the turn you sent. The 8 point difference for Blue between what I calculated (56) and what it actually is (64) is due to how TOAW executes events and the side effects of applying a 1.25% and .75% modifier to the same value on the same turn. Depending on the order of events, you'll get slightly different results.

Looks like during your turn you re-captured Green. IF you can hold it, then the turn 6 values should be close to: Blue = 80, Red = 117.

Since the Supply mods (+/-) 5 exactly follow the Replacement mods, AND they are absolute (not a % of) I find it easier to track whats going on with the supply values.

Turn 1: Blue captures 2 capitals and Red captures 1. The supply remains at Blue = 30, Red = 30.

Turn 2: Blue (having already taken the 2 capitals within reach) doesn't capture any, and Red captures it's second capital. Blue = 25, Red = 35.

Turn 3: No capitals change hands.

Turn 4: Red takes Green's capital. Blue = 20, Red = 40

Which are exactly the values in the turn you sent me. Again, if you can hold on to Green the Turn 6 values will be Blue = 25, Red = 35.

Hope this clears it up.

Curt

[Raver]

You mentioned that the replacement levels were 50 and 200, but in the turn you sent me they were 64 and 156.

I don't have the beginning turns to be sure but here's how they could have gotten to those levels:

Turn 1: Blue captures 2 capitals and Red captures 1. Because of the way the events are set up (see briefing) Blue only gets credit for 1. Thus the replacment rates are still 100 vs 100 on Turn 2.

Turn 2: Blue (having already taken the 2 capitals within reach) doesn't capture any, and Red captures it's second capital. Blue Repl = 75, Red = 125.

Turn 3: No capitals change hands.

Turn 4: Red takes Green's capital. Blue = 56, Red = 156.

That is the situation for the turn you sent. The 8 point difference for Blue between what I calculated (56) and what it actually is (64) is due to how TOAW executes events and the side effects of applying a 1.25% and .75% modifier to the same value on the same turn. Depending on the order of events, you'll get slightly different results.

Looks like during your turn you re-captured Green. IF you can hold it, then the turn 6 values should be close to: Blue = 80, Red = 117.

Since the Supply mods (+/-) 5 exactly follow the Replacement mods, AND they are absolute (not a % of) I find it easier to track whats going on with the supply values.

Turn 1: Blue captures 2 capitals and Red captures 1. The supply remains at Blue = 30, Red = 30.

Turn 2: Blue (having already taken the 2 capitals within reach) doesn't capture any, and Red captures it's second capital. Blue = 25, Red = 35.

Turn 3: No capitals change hands.

Turn 4: Red takes Green's capital. Blue = 20, Red = 40

Which are exactly the values in the turn you sent me. Again, if you can hold on to Green the Turn 6 values will be Blue = 25, Red = 35.

Hope this clears it up.

Curt


Thank you muchly. Looks like the biggest mistake was capturing 2 minor capitals on the same turn. Interestingly though, I did hold Green through turn 7 and then on turn 8 had replacements at 64.

[Raindem]

Just as a follow up, I'm playing a game of Blitzkrieg now. I am Blue. My opponent and I were even at 100%. He took green, I took it back the following turn, and then he took it again... and now I'm down to 64%. Now I've figured it out. It all has to do with 1st player/2nd player variances and the engine's order of execution.

When Blue (1st player) takes a capital Red always has a chance to take it back. When Red (2nd player) takes one, there is no chance for Blue to counter-attack to avoid the penalty.

So by the time Blue re-takes the capital, the penalty has already been applied. But Blue will have to hold it through Red's turn to get the bonus back on the following turn. If Red takes it AGAIN during their turn, TOAW evaluates it as a change of possession and will again apply the penalty to Blue. This happened in my game and I'm sure it's happening in Raver's.

So the moral of the story is... if you're playing Blue do not re-take a capital unless you're sure of holding it.

Hey, I just design scenarios. I never said I knew how to play them ;)

Curt

[Raver]

Thanks again Curt. I guess that adds another 'interesting' dynamic to the game ... or at least reinforces that you really dont want the enemy anywhere near the minor country capitals.

[Raver]

Oh, BTW, Blitzkreig is still one of my favourite scenarios - what are you working on at present?

[Bob Cross]

So the moral of the story is... if you're playing Blue do not re-take a capital unless you're sure of holding it.


Why don't you fix your event sequence instead? Here's an old discussion at TDG about this problem:

http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=TOAW;action=display;num=1060551649;s tart=2#2

[Raindem]

Why don't you fix your event sequence instead? Here's an old discussion at TDG about this problem:

http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=TOAW;action=display;num=1060551649;s tart=2#2

I have mine arranged slightly different (due to the number of locations to track) in order to conserve events. But I don't think the event sequence is the issue in this case. If Player 1 captures x,y and Player 2 re-takes it in their turn, TOAW will evaluate it as a change of possession in favor of Player 2, regardless of how the events are lined up. It just ignores what happens between the players' turns.

I can play around with the sequence a bit, just to make sure. Maybe throw in some delays and see what that does in situations where a location is constantly changing hands.

[Raindem]

Oh, BTW, Blitzkreig is still one of my favourite scenarios - what are you working on at present?

Thanks.

Campaign for South Vietnam. I'm waiting on the final blind playtest to wrap up before release. It's taken me about 3 years to develop that one so I'll probably take a break after that.

[Bob Cross]

If Player 1 captures x,y and Player 2 re-takes it in their turn, TOAW will evaluate it as a change of possession in favor of Player 2, regardless of how the events are lined up.

Not if player two's occupation event was canceled on turn 1 and can only be re-enabled by activation of player one's occupation event, as shown in the sequence in the referenced post.

[Raindem]

Not if player two's occupation event was canceled on turn 1 and can only be re-enabled by activation of player one's occupation event, as shown in the sequence in the referenced post.

I went to take another look at your sequence but my TDG link doesn't seem to be working at the moment. But I think I get the drift.

Player two's occupation events remain cancelled until Player one has received the effects of his. Then use an enable event (for both Player 1 & 2). The cycle is repeated each time Player 1 takes a hex. No special provisions needed for Player 2 since the effects will always be applied before Player 1 has a chance to respond.

This would use more events from the way I currently have it set up. But...if it solves the problem I'll go ahead and do it. The current system certainly gives Red an advantage and after all the scenario is supposed to be the "chess of wargarmes". I'll tinker with it and let you know what happens. A side benefit to the fix would be removing the "don't capture 2 capitals in one turn" restriction.

[Raindem]

OK, think I got it fixed. I was able to do it without altering event sequence or using more events. All I had to do was change the trigger for the enabling events. Also had to do it for both sides to take into account altering initiative during hotseat and PO games. Works much better now. If Player 1 (be it Blue or Red) captures and then loses a capital in the same turn it will not have any effect.

Will upload an updated scenario shortly.

[Mantis]

Is there a new version yet, Raindem?

[JAMiAM]

Is there a new version yet, Raindem?
Ahem...look in the scenario depot, stranger. It's been there a few days. Nice to see you around again... ;)