The May 1940 Campaign Scenario design

[viridomaros]

Does anyone has this?

I'd rather use an existing TOAW map if it does exist.

[nemo]

Does anyone has this?

I'd rather use an existing TOAW map if it does exist.
I have part of it - sort of: a 2,5 km per hex map for Northern France and Belgium, from south-east of Abbeville all the way to Liège and Eindhoven up north. Check the Cow version of The Race to the Sea 1914 (http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?menu=off&Id=709) over at Rugged Defence (the TOAW III one has a smaller map).
You'd have to draw The Netherlands though and adapt it to a 1940 setting (a couple of canals and railways to add among other things).

[viridomaros]

Is there a way to copy cut your map into a bigger one that i'll complete after ?
i don't see the canal linking Charleroi to Brussels on your map though it was built before 1914. Too small to be present on the map?
Anyway it wouldn't change anything to the scenario just asking.

[nemo]

Is there a way to copy cut your map into a bigger one that i'll complete after ?
Yeah: load the map in the editor, and then use the Edit>Map Boundaries>Increase Margin commands (top, bottom, left, right) to enlarge it where needed.

i don't see the canal linking Charleroi to Brussels on your map though it was built before 1914. Too small to be present on the map?No, I just overlooked it, thanks for the heads-up :paperbag:
I'll check my maps again to see whether it warrants a revision of the scenario.

[Silvanski]

Planning a May 1940 scenario on 2.5 KM/hex Pierre ?

[viridomaros]

It has always been on my to do list, though like a lot things it hasn't materialized yet. Anyone who's willing to help me on this is welcome.

[nemo]

I may dig-up a collection of French GHQ situation maps from the time; I remember seeing them somewhere on the shelves of my library.

[jlbetin]

Indecent proposal

we may work together ? Marc + Pierre + Jean-Luc

And we can create a design thread here about it ???

Damn stupid idea or an Interesting one ?????

Der WanderWhatIfBredaOptionWasNotSet
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[nemo]

I can come up with some measure of archival material and/or references and a hefty load of semi-informed comments :D but won't be able to actually do anything design-wise. Work, PBEM commitments to honour and a scenario I need to finish are great impediments.

[viridomaros]

working on the map i think i'm going to completely redraw it not that yours isn't good enough but TOAW is having problems when i want to enlrage the map on several sides.

[viridomaros]

unfortunately it is impossible to make a map at 2,5 km/hex for france + benelux, i'll go with 5km/hex that will be huge enough in fact.

[jlbetin]

working on the map i think i'm going to completely redraw it not that yours isn't good enough but TOAW is having problems when i want to enlrage the map on several sides.

In the last "Histoire de Guerre Blindés et Materiel" there are a lot of good articles about the mai 1940 period and about the Belgium neutrality policy

Regards

Der WanderDyleBredaTheMistake
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[nemo]

unfortunately it is impossible to make a map at 2,5 km/hex for france + benelux, i'll go with 5km/hex that will be huge enough in fact.
From Groningen to Basel there are approximately 630 km, i.e. 252 hexes at 2.5 km per hex; and from Stuttgart to Calais there are less than 600 km in straight line (240 hexes). It wouldn't be impossible strictly speaking, but that'd make for quite a huge map and a difficultly manageable one at that.

[jlbetin]

From Groningen to Basel there are approximately 630 km, i.e. 252 hexes at 2.5 km per hex; and from Stuttgart to Calais there are less than 600 km in straight line (240 hexes). It wouldn't be impossible strictly speaking, but that'd make for quite a huge map and a difficultly manageable one at that.

On my side I was thinking on a map with
Sedan La Ferté area on eastern part up to Liège,
North limited by Liège Bruxelle Dunkerque
West a straight line passing west of Abbeville
South limited by Reims Amiens

More or less 300 large by 200 (at maximum) it would gives 120 by 80 hexes
the scale is important especialy in the early stage of Sedan battle with La Fontaine ride on the 13 and De Flavigny missed counter attack at Stonne

there are important "what if" events there and a 2,5 km scale is the maximum one to model correctly these events.

Der WanderBillote'sRideAtStonne
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[nemo]

On my side I was thinking on a map with
Sedan La Ferté area on eastern part up to Liège,
North limited by Liège Bruxelle Dunkerque
West a straight line passing west of Abbeville
South limited by Reims Amiens
Check the map I've mentioned in my first answer to Pierre, it just fits your needs, size and location wise - with all the usual caveats :smoke:

[jlbetin]

If Pierre and Marc agree I would like to rename this thread as "May 1940 Campaign"

For those abble to read French have a look here http://www.atf40.fr (http://www.atf40.fr/)

And this one in French and English
http://france1940.free.fr/ (http://france1940.free.fr/)
and this one too
http://enpointe.chez-alice.fr/index.html

Der WanderEZtSiDeGaulleWasHeard
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[nemo]

If Pierre and Marc agree I would like to rename this thread as "May 1940 Campaign"
Vois avec Pierre, c'est lui qui a commencé :D

No problem at all here.

[viridomaros]

you can change the name of the thread.

AS anyone tried using google earth to create a map yet?
i'm talking about map boundaries + overall landscape.

[nemo]

I've tried many times to superpose a scalable hex overlay on Google Earth following the advices found on GE forums, but to no avail, no matter how much effort I put into it. Someone proficient enough with kmz files could probably work it out though.

[viridomaros]

wasn't thinking about that though it's a great idea. What i was doing so far was to use the ruler to determine the distances between different points then draw hexes. Of course your method is a better way to do things.

Have you tried to printscreen in googleearth then open it in paintshopro or paint then lay hexagons on it?

[jlbetin]

Guys,

use the IGN 3D portal it is far better for French maps
I've found the Chaberton Fortress and by a clever move I was abble to see what the Italian saw from their border toward Briançon, amazing, believe me

Marc, I need to rework your map it is too short on south border, it needs 30 km between Sedan and south limit to reflect fights there until beginning of june 40.
guderian needed 20 km from Sedan to be sure that Pz will be maneuvering safely, far away from French artillery


Der WanderGotMarc'sMap
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[nemo]

wasn't thinking about that though it's a great idea. What i was doing so far was to use the ruler to determine the distances between different points then draw hexes. Of course your method is a better way to do things.

Have you tried to printscreen in googleearth then open it in paintshopro or paint then lay hexagons on it?
Fact is, Google Earth can come in handy for checking distances or for modern scenarios. It's harder to use it for older settings as man-made features have changed quite a bit in say, the sixty years and counting since the end of WW2.
I work with old maps (generally at the 1:500000 scale), digitize them and then process them through the Hexgrid utility (ODD has a similar feature I believe) to have the desired hex overlay drawn. From there, it's all downhill...

[viridomaros]

then it would work with google earth as well, i just have to adjust the zoom to the correct level before printing the screen.
I'll have a look at that tomorrow.
I will also have a look at your IGN portal JL though i hope it's free

[nemo]

Guys,

use the IGN 3D portal it is far better for French maps
I've found the Chaberton Fortress and by a clever move I was abble to see what the Italian saw from their border toward Briançon, amazing, believe me
It's been a while since I didn't check this portal - clumsy interface and lack of features didn't make it, at the time, a good prospect for a map-making help.

Marc, I need to rework your map it is too short on south border, it needs 30 km between Sedan and south limit to reflect fights there until beginning of june 40.
guderian needed 20 km from Sedan to be sure that Pz will be maneuvering safely, far away from French artillery
I may have - I'm not on my main computer right now - an expanded version of the original jpeg file with the proper 2.5 km hex overlay. If so, I'll send it over so that you don't have to put together maps from different sources and scales to draw the southern end of your TOAW map.

[jlbetin]

Here is the 3D view of France through IGN portal http://www.geoportail.fr/5069712/visu3D/afficher-en-3d.htm?

Der WanderGotVertigo
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[viridomaros]

Faut installer le logiciel, ferai ca demain.

[nemo]

Jean-Luc, check your magic.fr account: you have mail.

[Olorin4]

I've tried many times to superpose a scalable hex overlay on Google Earth following the advices found on GE forums, but to no avail, no matter how much effort I put into it. Someone proficient enough with kmz files could probably work it out though.

I tried various methods but to no avail as well. Here is what I did: made a bmp file from google earth, then tried various programs to convert it to mml format. I downloaded various programs that I thought could do the job, but nothing could.

P.S. There is guide? Where are those GE forums? If it can be done, it would be great. I want my map to be 100% accurate :)

[jlbetin]

Ok I begin the first development

1st point the name, to avoid confusions I decided to name my scenario

Sichelschnitt-Sedan1940 In German it means the sickel stroke (?)

For the happy few abble to read French I will use many articles issued from the Guerre Blindés & Materiel review N° 74 to the last one 83 (I wait impatiently the 84 :D )

I will work too with folks of France 1940 group issued from yahoo France1940@yahoogroups.com

Map is the one of Nemo's Race to the sea, it will need some extension on east and south but nothing unbreakable

Here I'm

Der WanderStonneEtMontDieu
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[jlbetin]

On the 6th of July

Scenario frame

Size 2,5km/hex
Time Frame 6 hours
Unit Size Btn or Rgt, rare companies.

Scenario begins 13th of may up to 25th of may

Climate Temperate, light precipitation, unlucky for allies it was a marvelous month of may

OOB From North to South

Allies
French 7th Armée
Belgium Army
British Exp. Force
French 1st Armée
French 9th Armée
French 2nd Armée

Third Reich ( it was NSADP army, not the one of Germany I love)
18th Army
6th Army
4th Army
12th Army

Here I am

Der WanderJean-LucWorkingForYou
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[sPzAbt653]

'Sichelschnitt-Sedan1940 In German it means the sickel stroke (?)'

For what it's worth, McCarthy and Syron's 'Panzerkrieg' translates 'Manstein's Sichelschnitt' as 'Manstein's Sickle Cut'. However, I have found some errors in the book, so I don't know about it's accuracy. I do know that in translating German, there sometimes are no 'exact' English words, so I suppose either 'stroke' or 'cut' would do.
My vote would be to use 'cut', as I think it better describes the maneuver.

Cheers!

[Gustave]

'Sichelschnitt-Sedan1940 In German it means the sickel stroke (?)'

For what it's worth, McCarthy and Syron's 'Panzerkrieg' translates 'Manstein's Sichelschnitt' as 'Manstein's Sickle Cut'. However, I have found some errors in the book, so I don't know about it's accuracy. I do know that in translating German, there sometimes are no 'exact' English words, so I suppose either 'stroke' or 'cut' would do.
My vote would be to use 'cut', as I think it better describes the maneuver.

Cheers!


I think you're right.

In France, we usually say "le coup de faucille de Sedan" (Sedan's sickle cut) or "le coup de faux de Sedan" (Sedan's scythe cut).

Gus

[Heldenkaiser]

Sichel is sickle, not scythe (the blade with the short, not the one with the long handle). As for the verb and its figurative meaning, my suggestion would be "sickle sweep", but "sickle cut" will do as a literal translation of Sichelschnitt. :)

[nemo]

The Cut of the Scythe - Sedan 1940 sounds definitely better, to me at least. For what it's worth, it's a reference to be found at the Defence Technical Information Center (http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADB125547) (The Cut of the Scythe is the title of a 1988 Master's thesis at the Army and General Staff College dealing with the Sedan breakthrough).

[nemo]

Or even better - for the purists - leave it in its original German form. Increased coolness and chrome factors :smoke:

[Gustave]

Sichel is sickle, not scythe (the blade with the short, not the one with the long handle

The mostly current french translation is "coup de faux" (scythe cut).

Perhaps because we were on the wrong side of the tool?

Let's forget the literal translation and try to give a sense to this "sichelschnitt".

What does it represent?

The movement you do with the tool?

Something like this?

22194

or like that?

22193

GUS, adept of the pendular movement

[Heldenkaiser]

Let's forget the literal translation and try to give a sense to this "sichelschnitt".

What does it represent?

Exactly. My thinking is that the plan was called "Sichelschnitt" because if executed it would, very figuratively speaking, sever the corn stems near the ground (cut through the rear areas) rather than attack the ears or heads (the Allied armies in Belgium) directly. I do agree that this image invokes the picture of a scythe rather than of a sickle. (The literal translation is still sickle.)

I also think the wide sweeping motion of the German spearhead advance (it does look like a shallow circle section on a map) played a part in suggesting the name though. That's why I suggested the "sweep" of the sickle. :)

In any case, I believe Marc is right in that leaving the German word is probably best for a wargaming scenario. :cool:

[jlbetin]

It was my intention since the beginning to let the German name, it is a way to honor Von Manstein and Guderian, the genius of German victory in 1940

Der WanderForEverBeDamnTheNameofPhilippePétain
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[jlbetin]

To my German Freunds, do you know a good web site with the TO&E of German forces

I have partial ones and not fine enough to go to the Abteilung level.

Thanks in Advance

Der WanderAusMarschMarschZugVorwartz
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[Gustave]

I' ve found this several times on the web:


Army Group A commanded by Gerd von Rundstedt, composed of 45½ divisions including seven armoured, was to execute the decisive movement, cutting a "Sichelschnitt" — not the official name of the operation but the translation in German of a phrase after the events coined by Winston Churchill[1] as "Sickle Cut" (and even earlier "armoured scythe stroke"[2])

[1]Karl-Heinz Frieser Blitzkrieg-Legende p. 71
[2]W. Churchill, His Complete Speeches, vol 6, p. 6226


It seems that we are trying to translate in english a german translation of Winston Churchill's words. :clown:
Really funny!

[nemo]

To my German Freunds, do you know a good web site with the TO&E of German forces

I have partial ones and not fine enough to go to the Abteilung level.
Do you have Bayonet Strength (http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm) in your bookmarks? I goes down to the battalion level, often taking its authorised strength informations right from German official documents.

[jlbetin]

I' ve found this several times on the web:



It seems that we are trying to translate in english a german translation of Winston Churchill's words. :clown:
Really funny!

Comme quoi !!!

It is from this book I choose the name !!!

Now to continue on this scenario, what kind of Theater Option could be set

A) French at their best
----------------------
De Gaulles Dream, it implies that we got 3 to 4 DCR sized as De Gaulles wanted them to be. But No extension of Maginot line. Maginot Line stay as it was in May 1940.

The war production is one year ahead, it means that in September 1939 we reach the May-June 40 production level. The French GQG is accepting the extensive use of Radio (remember K.H. Frizer book 1600 radio operator in French army 3000 in German one), this will be reflected in the TOAW Force Formation Communication level which will be equal to the german one.

The training level of B level division (55 and 71 DI by instance) is set intensively and reach (more or less) the level A divisions.

The weapons are sent to 1st line units and not keept in rear depots and war schools, the soldier there are not behaving as stupid civil servant that may refuse a huge production of admunition because the speed testing shows a difference of 1 meter /second.

French begins to understand air/soil cooperation and then the air units are no more localized per area but devoted to front line (more fighters on front line)

Still following Friezer's book, Gnl Lafontaine do not waste time in searching written orders so French counter attack at Bulson ridge began the 13th on the evening (turn 3 of the scenario rather than on turn 5)
Lafontaine has lost 15 hours !!!

To be continued
---------------

Der WanderNextToCome
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[Heldenkaiser]

It seems that we are trying to translate in english a german translation of Winston Churchill's words. :clown:
Really funny!

It's true. Frieser says so, and the German code name was "Fall Gelb". :D

[jlbetin]

To continue about Theater options

A) French at their best (contin.)
----------------------
Despite the pressure of Brits, the French Breda option is dropped out, the BEF must protect the North Front but receives UK units removed from Norway, the 7th Army is put in reserve position in Belgium

The 13th of May General Huntziger do not move back his troops toward Inor, not creating the 20 km gap where in real Germans poored troops

At last the 3DCR and 3rd DIM counter attack is launched:
if the General Lafontaine did it right the counter attack could occur directly against Sedan from Bulson ridge or nearby.

And obviously Gamelin is out of the command process, Gnl George took the command the command capacity is high

B) French So So
----------------
No De Gaulles dream DCR,
war production works as it was in real, but weapons go directly on 1st Line units.
Communication level is bad
B divisions are not trained
Lafontaine doing right on the 13th is random
Hunziger moving back is random
More fighters on 1st line is random

Counter attack of the 3rd DCR and 3rd DIM is Random but if not launched then units would stay garrisoned south of Stonne without entering the fight except if German player is stupid !! (Stonne fights occured between the 15th and 17th. Friezer called it the Verdun of 1940)

C) French as it was
------------------
No De Gaulles dream DCR,
war production works as it was in real,
Breda Option is run
Lot lot of weapons and admunitions were kept in rear areas or exported !!.
Communication level is bad
B divisions are not trained
Lafontaine was running for written orders (2 full turn losts and German tanks enter the fights at Bulson)
Hunziger moving back 3rd DINA to Innor opening wide the Gap for Germans.
Counter attack of 3 DCR and 3 DIM is blocked and divisions stay garrisoned south of Stonne

What do you think about those options budies

Der WanderMay1940IKnowSome
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[Gustave]

What do you think about those options budies



Miam miam!

All those options are fantastic (surtout la A).

GUS

[jlbetin]

Now lets have some option with our Belgium Friends

Belgium best
__________
Full cooperation with Allies Headquarter and forces
The 2 Chasseurs Ardennais divisions do not leave the Ardennes area and are put under French command along with their Cavalry division.

The fortifications near the Dyle river are completed and hold waiting for French units.

B level divisions are well trained

Lot of AMC tanks sold and delivered on time (100) to Belgium army, they got an armored division

Not So So
_________

Belgium as it was
______________
The ardennes were not defended by the Chasseurs Ardennais who move toward Namur
No Armored division

Here I'm for Belgium but Viridomaros would like to add some

Der WanderNamur&Dinant
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[jlbetin]

Look at UK Best

UK Best
______
-UK mobilize troops more quickly, 1 infantry division more for BEF
-More Tank produced during the phoney war -> 1 Armored division more for BEF
-Obliged to fulfill themselves the original Breda option of General Gamelin, UK High command is obliged to divert troops from Norway in emergency, they received the too UK division set in the Maginot Line system, the 51 Highland
- At least 4 more Spitfire squadrons sent in France

UK So So
_______
Breda option under UK command receive more troops from Norway

UK as real
________
French follows Breda option the BEF is in the middle of Belgium front line.

Der WanderStValeryEnCaux
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[kender79]

interessant.

For the option A) French at their best (contin.)

Reducted 7th army near Maubeuge, behind the 1rst army. Keep only 1 french corps near Antwerp (1DIM + 1DI) to reinforce the belges.

The first “Grp Cuirasse” (2 and 3 DCR) station nearer from Belgium or Sedan.

6th army reacting earlier (Suisse Option rejected with the offensive). IRL, The 6th troops were used to man the Somme’s line. Earlier, it could be use to aliment the Meuse battle.

The Chasseur Ardennais division retreating south and not North, allowing more fight in the Ardennes, giving lots of good results (tiredness of German units, more time before the fight on the Meuse, …)

Cavalery troop reacting earlier to enter in Arlon and Luxembourg (same as the Chasseur Ardennais Division).

Try to avoid the change of Supreme Commander in May. Gamelin stay for all the fight.
Or Weygand taking the place in the Winter (age limit).

take 2 DI from the Levant Army to reinforce France in the Winter.

And nevermind a better use of the French Air force due to a better coordination (radio)

[kender79]

Now lets have some option with our Belgium Friends

Belgium best
__________
Full cooperation with Allies Headquarter and forces
The 2 Chasseurs Ardennais divisions do not leave the Ardennes area and are put under French command along with their Cavalry division.

The fortifications near the Dyle river are completed and hold waiting for French units.

B level divisions are well trained

Lot of AMC tanks sold and delivered on time (100) to Belgium army, they got an armored division

Not So So
_________

Belgium as it was
______________
The ardennes were not defended by the Chasseurs Ardennais who move toward Namur
No Armored division

Here I'm for Belgium but Viridomaros would like to add some

Der WanderNamur&Dinant
_____________________


IRL :
only 1 ChD was in the Ardennes
The Cavalery Division was a light Armor Division. Lacking only Medium tank.

More than AMC, I think the french army would have build and sold H39 tank.
For Eben Mael, all the bridges are destructed, needing time to be repaired by the German Genie

[kender79]

Look at UK Best

UK Best
______
-UK mobilize troops more quickly, 1 infantry division more for BEF
-More Tank produced during the phoney war -> 1 Armored division more for BEF
-Obliged to fulfill themselves the original Breda option of General Gamelin, UK High command is obliged to divert troops from Norway in emergency, they received the too UK division set in the Maginot Line system, the 51 Highland
- At least 4 more Spitfire squadrons sent in France

UK So So
_______
Breda option under UK command receive more troops from Norway

UK as real
________
French follows Breda option the BEF is in the middle of Belgium front line.
_______________________


A more aggressive British Navy to protect the Belgium coast with shore bombardment. Helping the Coast Wing of the Army. Losing more boat doing that.

[jlbetin]

For French A option
________________

R35 are half replaced by R40 (better gun 37mmSA38)
H35 are replaced by H39 (better gun 37mmSA38)
Laffly W15T (47mm wheeled AT vehicle) is produced in great number and enter the DIM and DCR
All 47 batteries are towed, no more horse moved
No more Horse cavalry units in DLC GRDI GRCA ) except Moroccan Spahis Brigades in charge of the Ardennes forest area, horses are replaced by AMR or motocycles.

In DIM DCR DLM DLC no more horses for guns or supply delivery all is motorized and towed.

Der WanderThat'sNotTooBad
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[nemo]

Three options for the French, two for the Belgian, three for the British: if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't that make something close to 18 different possible settings for the scenario, not counting eventual German variants? It'd probably be easier, both on the designer and on the players, to have a single set of variants per side, i.e. France, Belgium and the U.K. at their best, so so and as they were and maybe a couple of variants for the Germans.
Providing players with options is all right, but I'm leery of scenarios with too many a combination in terms of force settings, leading to weird results in terms of gameplay - not to speak of the serious workload thoroughly playtesting every possible combination will entail.

Worth around 0.02 €

[Gustave]

How about artillery?

155 mm GPFT and 75 mm Taz 39?

Gus

[kender79]

For French A option
________________

R35 are half replaced by R40 (better gun 37mmSA38)
H35 are replaced by H39 (better gun 37mmSA38) -> was called H38
Laffly W15T (47mm wheeled AT vehicle) is produced in great number and enter the DIM and DCR
All 47 batteries are towed, no more horse moved
No more Horse cavalry units in DLC GRDI GRCA ) except Moroccan Spahis Brigades in charge of the Ardennes forest area, horses are replaced by AMR or motocycles.

In DIM DCR DLM DLC no more horses for guns or supply delivery all is motorized and towed.

Der WanderThat'sNotTooBad
________________________


Add more D2 tank as interim equipment. It was not so bad (a S35 in worse).

Keep the H35 in DI as tank company (with the gun 37mmSA38, the turrel was designed for)

Laffly W15T (47mm wheeled AT vehicle) with chenillette Lorraine equiped with a 25mm AC.

AC and light AA batteries are towed before the ART batteries (horse moved)

DLC divides in DC (mot) and DC (horse) waiting more equipment.

regroup in Motor Corps the DLM, DIM and DCR.

GRDI GRCA are reconnaissance Bataillon. Used sometime as mechanized unit to cover the mass of the unit.

[kender79]

How about artillery?

155 mm GPFT and 75 mm Taz 39?

Gus

More motorization would be good.

a few company of autoCanon (75mm on truck or a tractor, not a STUG more a Buffa).

[jlbetin]

IRL :
only 1 ChD was in the Ardennes
The Cavalery Division was a light Armor Division. Lacking only Medium tank.

More than AMC, I think the french army would have build and sold H39 tank.
For Eben Mael, all the bridges are destructed, needing time to be repaired by the German Genie

Yeap I thought about this one to, it was a real surprise for the belgium troops of the fort they were not in defense mode when the german launched the attack and the fort commander did not got the right to fire on the bridges he was obliged to get orders from HQ, orders he never get.

It could delay part of the germans armoured forces 12 hours. But it would have few interest as Allies strategy was based on a defensive battle round the Dyle line.

Der WanderGembloux&Hannut
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[kender79]

Infantery ideal :
Add more HMG in the TOE of the infantery company.
Accelerate the introduction of the MP (used in the corps Francs)

Better training of the infantery : use of cover while moving, train to defend again tank.

[kender79]

Yeap I thought about this one to, it was a real surprise for the belgium troops of the fort they were not in defense mode when the german launched the attack and the fort commander did not got the right to fire on the bridges he was obliged to get orders from HQ, orders he never get.

It could delay part of the germans armoured forces 12 hours. But it would have few interest as Allies strategy was based on a defensive battle round the Dyle line.

Der WanderGembloux&Hannut


This time would give more time to install the defense at Gembloux. And the Corps de Cavalery would be intact to be use in the south (not losing 1/2 of this tanks).

And the belgium could stand behind the river.

After the Meuse Battle, lots of french unit fought in movement, loosing the utility of their artillery.

[Gustave]

More motorization would be good.

a few company of autoCanon (75mm on truck or a tractor, not a STUG more a Buffa).

No need of Stugs, we already have B1-Bis.

The 155 mm GPFT is the tracted version of the 155 mm GPF. It can be tracted at 30 km/h instead of 10 for the GPF. A good gun for RALCs.

The Taz 39 is a Multi purpose Gun with an amazing range of 14km . A good gun too.

Another good one for RALDs : 105 mm L36

GUS

[kender79]

No need of Stugs, we already have B1-Bis.

The 155 mm GPFT is the tracted version of the 155 mm GPF. It can be tracted at 30 km/h instead of 10 for the GPF. A good gun for RALCs.

The Taz 39 is a Multi purpose Gun with an amazing range of 14km . A good gun too.

Another good one for RALDs : 105 mm L36

GUS

All theses canons/howlitzer were goods. But they need lots of time to be ready to fight. An autocanon, with the canon on a truck/pickup would be ready in less than a minute.

[jlbetin]

Three options for the French, two for the Belgian, three for the British: if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't that make something close to 18 different possible settings for the scenario, not counting eventual German variants? It'd probably be easier, both on the designer and on the players, to have a single set of variants per side, i.e. France, Belgium and the U.K. at their best, so so and as they were and maybe a couple of variants for the Germans.
Providing players with options is all right, but I'm leery of scenarios with too many a combination in terms of force settings, leading to weird results in terms of gameplay - not to speak of the serious workload thoroughly playtesting every possible combination will entail.

Worth around 0.02 €

Yes Yes Yes,
it was like this that I thought the TO, Best SoSo and real
I just want to explain to 1940 campaign newbies the implications of each TO

Concerning German, I do not think TO is usefull, they are at their best, their strategy is the correct one.

The only question is : "Is the Allies player on the 13th of May (not the 10th), after the initial move into Belgium, able to avoid the Sichelschnitt of the Von Kleist Panzer korp"

Many French options are reflecting bad luck or show non sense actions of some generals (Lafontaine Huntziger De Flavigny)

Der WanderMortAuxCons
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[nemo]

Even without modifying the equipment, a better deployment (the Breda plan being scrapped) and a better command and control system maybe wouldn't have saved the day anyway but would at least even the odds up to a point.
I'd rather have those two elements incorporated scenario wise than have a full crop of what-if units to contend with.

Amusant, soit dit en passant, de constater qu'il n'y a, à cette heure, quasiment que des français dans ce forum :D

[jlbetin]

All theses units could be goods. But they need lots of time to be ready to fight. An autocanon, with the canon on a truck/pickup would be ready in less than a minute.

Looking at last articles of GBM about DCR the self propelled guns were ready to enter the fight in July-October 1940 time frame. Weapons would be As40 with 75mm and Loraine based 105mm gun

Der WanderParStGeorgeViveLaCavalerie
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[kender79]

As40 with 75mm was only a prototype (and I'm not a big fan, preferring the German STUG)-> not before September in unit.

Lorraine based 105mm gun? I never see a photo of it.
In the GBM, they speak of a SPG (with a beautiful art) for the DCR model 1941, not in 1940.

The B1ter was closer to be be operational (3 or more tank were tested in may)

[nemo]

Yes Yes Yes,
it was like this that I thought the TO, Best SoSo and real
I just want to explain to 1940 campaign newbies the implications of each TOAll right, I get it - wasn't sure, hence my question.


The only question is : "Is the Allies player on the 13th of May (not the 10th), after the initial move into Belgium, able to avoid the Sichelschnitt of the Von Kleist Panzer korp"

Many French options are reflecting bad luck or show non sense actions of some generals (Lafontaine Huntziger De Flavigny)
The Allied player knows beforehand where the blow will fall; this in turn will inform its entire strategy. Given the nature of TOAW (the player assumes all levels of command), you can't - unless you entirely script the scenario at the risk of alienating the player - prevent the Allied commander from making better decisions than its historical counterparts, without hindrance or friction from inferior command levels, twisting the game balance. Hindsight and its effects has, at some point, to be factored in and, up to a point, neutered. Don't you think that's maybe the hardest thing to figure out, design wise, in such a scenario?

[kender79]

More than a replay scripted of the campaign, I would prefer a scenario with 2 or 3 turn before the beginning of the offensive, allowing a last time redeployment.

This redeployment could activate a better readiness of the French unit (next to 10% of the troops were in family the 10th may, troop movement would trigger some cancel).

[jlbetin]

The Allied player knows beforehand where the blow will fall; this in turn will inform its entire strategy. Given the nature of TOAW (the player assumes all levels of command), you can't - unless you entirely script the scenario at the risk of alienating the player - prevent the Allied commander from making better decisions than its historical counterparts, without hindrance or friction from inferior command levels, twisting the game balance. Hindsight and its effects has, at some point, to be factored in and, up to a point, neutered. Don't you think that's maybe the hardest thing to figure out, design wise, in such a scenario?

I can force some units in garrison mode (mostly Blegium, Brits ans 1st Army) in the defense line as they have to do the job the GQG order them hold the line.
After the 15th of May ally player will be free.

I do not want to invent a new strategy, I want to show if folowing the historical background and offering variants this could lead to the same result,
but IMHO I want it with in a honest point of view not the biased one driven by Petain or De Gaulle propaganda and anglo-saxon disdain against the French army of 1940.

40% of French army was at the same level of quality as German level 1 divisions (40% of German army too). Not under as I saw it in most of the other TOAW scenarios, where French HAVE TO lost are they are just surrendering monkeys.

To be clear the dyle option must be followed until German break or try to break the line (15th of May).
But
What if Lafontaine counter attack earlier,
What if DCR where more stronger to face the German Panzer division,
What if Huntzinger do not move back 3rd Dina to Inor
What if De Flavigny lead the counter attack the 14th
What if the French were more ready and better leaded.

To finish on a point before to go to bed :nuts:

More D2, no, due to rationalisation of production (in Real Daladier 27/09/39) stopped further D2 command for foccusing on only 4 kind of tanks R35/R40 H39, B1BIS, S35)
the war production for tanks must foccus for 1940 time frame on R40 H39 S35 B1BIS
Look GBM N°74p 48

on my A option we are one year earlier in production this permits to have the De Gaulle like DCR with B1bis and S35, H39 will go to BCC inside CA

I will remove FCM36 and replace them by H39 (FCM36 gun was the 37SA18) the crap one.
I will let D2 as 100 but remember in real its production is discarded in 1939)

OOPS I forgot, German are better organised and use voice radio so they will move quicker than French what ever the option is

Der WanderHotchkiss&Renault
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[nemo]

I'm off to bed too - we'll continue tomorrow.
Allez, au lit Jean-Luc et à demain !

[kender79]

So send all the D2 in Africa (in Tunisia against the Libya) with the FCM36.

Before upgrading the BCC inside CA with medium to heavy tank, It would be better to augment the number of Big motor unit:
More DLM (by transforming the DLC)
giving a few tank to the DIM (company CACC to bataillon BCC)
and more DCR (upgrading the army's Grp of BCC to DCR [Heavy Intervention Unit]).

Bonne nuit.

[Gustave]

So send all the D2 in Africa (in Tunisia against the Libya) with the FCM36.

Before upgrading the BCC inside CA with medium to heavy tank, It would be better to augment the number of Big motor unit:
More DLM (by transforming the DLC)
giving a few tank to the DIM (company CACC to bataillon BCC)
and more DCR (upgrading the army's Grp of BCC to DCR [Heavy Intervention Unit]).

Bonne nuit.

Yes, and don't forget to scrap FT17 and FCM-2C tanks. No need of those antics.

GUS

[kender79]

Yes, and don't forget to scrap FT17 and FCM-2C tanks. No need of those antics.

GUS

OK for the FCM-2C

For the FT17 use its turrets on light fortification lines. Or in colony as symbole.

[jlbetin]

Boys keep cool and keep our feet on the ground, do not expect massive change in TO&E and habbits of our officers :D

We are working with option A

Following figures of GBM at may 40 we may have, including pre war production

700 B1BIS
R40/R35 -> 1100
900 H39 + 400 H35 (using the new 37SA38) -> 1300 HXX ( only H39 will go to Cavalry for speed reasons)
100 D2

concerning the S35 400 were produced in may 40 we may think that 900 could be a reasonable value following option A

De Gaulle's Division cuirassée (DCu)
it consists for tanks only (infantry and arty will come latter in my future posts)
1 Heavy tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 70 B1BIS
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35 or 96 D2
a Light tank Btn 45 R35/40 (H39 were directed to cavalry units)

A rec Btn -> 32 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35 + 2 motorcycle squadron

We may expect 4 DCu full ready and trained on May 10 and 2 under creation entering the fight round the 20th of may

It gives 6x70 B1BIS -> 420 B1BIS
96 D2 with 4 in reserve (for 1st DCu) will be replace latter with S35 or S40
5x96 S35 -> 450 S35 ( for 2 to 6 DCu)
6x45 R35/R40 -> 270 R35/40 All with 37SA38 gun

Cavalry DLM
Rather than 3 DLM we may expect 4 ready 2 to under formation but won't be ready until june

S35 96x4 -> 384 S35
H39 94x4 -> 376 H39 all with 37SA38
AMD35 48x4-> 192 AMD 35 with 25 mm will replaced with 47mm

DLC

To be continued

Der WanderGoingToAthena'sNightWalk
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The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
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[kender79]

Boys keep cool and keep our feet on the ground, do not expect massive change in TO&E and habbits of our officers :D

We are working with option A

Following figures of GBM at may 40 we may have, including pre war production

700 B1BIS
R40/R35 -> 1100
900 H39 + 400 H35 (using the new 37SA38) -> 1300 HXX ( only H39 will go to Cavalry for speed reasons)
100 D2

concerning the S35 400 were produced in may 40 we may think that 900 could be a reasonable value following option A

De Gaulle's Division cuirassée (DCu)
it consists for tanks only (infantry and arty will come latter in my future posts)
1 Heavy tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 70 B1BIS
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35 or 96 D2
a Light tank Btn 45 R35/40 (H39 were directed to cavalry units)

A rec Btn -> 32 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35 + 2 motorcycle squadron

We may expect 4 DCu full ready and trained on May 10 and 2 under creation entering the fight round the 20th of may

It gives 6x70 B1BIS -> 420 B1BIS
96 D2 with 4 in reserve (for 1st DCu) will be replace latter with S35 or S40
5x96 S35 -> 450 S35 ( for 2 to 6 DCu)
6x45 R35/R40 -> 270 R35/40 All with 37SA38 gun

Cavalry DLM
Rather than 3 DLM we may expect 4 ready 2 to under formation but won't be ready until june

S35 96x4 -> 384 S35
H39 94x4 -> 376 H39 all with 37SA38
AMD35 48x4-> 192 AMD 35 with 25 mm will replaced with 47mm

DLC

To be continued

Der WanderGoingToAthena'sNightWalk


Try this :

DCR Format :
1 Heavy tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 70 B1BIS
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35 or 96 D2
1 rec Btn -> 32 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35 + 2 motorcycle squadron
-----------------------------
> 166 tank + 32 AM


light tank will not survive heavy fight if they must follow the bi tank.
Keep it in independant BCC or send it in another unit. To scout, you have the AMD35 (could be upgrade to a reg if you want).
OLT, the S35 was a cavalery tank (-> cavalery DLM not in the infantery DCR).

DLM Format :
1 Medium tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 S35
1 Light tank Regiment with 2 Btn -> 96 H39
1 rec Btn -> 48 Amd35 mdl178 with 25 gun and latter with 47mmSA35
-----------------------------
> 192 tank + 48 AM

DCR Unit
We may expect 3 DCu full ready and trained on May 10 and 3 under creation entering the fight round the 20th of may.
The first DCR was created in january.
The Second DCR was created just behind
The third DCR was a training unit for the 10th.
The fourth DCR was being assembled, needing training.
So you can alterate your scenario by creating the DCR in 1939 (in june - july) to have more unit ready or you must limit to 3 the number of unit combat ready.

-> 6 x 70 = 420 B1bis
-> 6 x 96 = 576 S35
-> 6 x 32 = 192 AMD35

DLM Unit
4 unit ready
2 unit forming
OK, the 4DLM's element was used to form the 4th DCR.
After Dunkerque, the DLM were reformed (format light) with materiel in stock. So, stocks must exist.

-> 6 x 96 = 576 S35
-> 6 x 96 = 576 H39
-> 6 x 48 = 288 AMD35

DLC
This this system, army can have better give a "Une demi-brigade de chars leger" of H39/H35 to the DLC (5 x 96 H39 = 576 H39 for 5 DLC).

And give better Gr of BCC to the Army (9 x 96 = 864 R35/R40)
think about all the front, infantery need support for local counterstrike.


----------------------------------------------
Total
----------------------------------------------
420 B1bis
576 + 576 = 1152 S35 (1056 with 96 D2)
576 + 576 = 1152 H39
9 x 96 = 864 R35/R40
192 + 288 = 480 AMD35

[jlbetin]

Remember my initial hypothesis Best of French

We have De Gaulle, since 1938 who have influenced in a substantial way the GQG to see his Line division created, for him medium tanks are D2 or S35, due to war production effort, D2 production is discontinued but the 100 are affected immeditaly to the 1st DCu to be created in mid 1939, then S35 will take the place of medium tank

Line division is made of 3 brigades
tank brigade
One regiment heavy -> B1BIS,
one regiment medium D2 or S35
one bataillon light -> H35/39 or R35/R40

one Motorized brigade
2 RI motorized and one Dragon Porté Btn

one Artillery brigade
two heavy btn (105c) and 3 light btn (75), I will add a 47mm AT Btn a 25mm AA Btn too

plus one Engineer Btn and a recco Btn (a Cuirassier like btn) and a reco airplane group Potez or Bloch 174

This said it makes thing clearer

For DLM and DLC I will respect the TO&E of 1940 but no more horses.All light tanks are H39 with 37SA38, AMD 35 and H39 are replacing the horses companies in DLC

Same for GRCA using horses, horses will be replaced by Light tanks


I will continue my OOB and TO&E description soon and then implement it in the TOAW III

I edit myself

Please remember that Best of French is hypothetical but not unrealistic.
For the two other option I will follow strictly the historical OOB, only TO&E will slightly evolve

Der WanderBuilder
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[kender79]

It's just too much :laugh:

A change in 1938 will give you an advance of 6-9 month in production.

Even with a GQG working efficiently, it would meet before the War some resistance from economic's players and pacifist lobby. And industrials would have some inertie before moving : see the time passed to create tools in 1939.


one bataillon light -> H35/39 or R35/R40


Can you explain me their mission? scoutting? For scouting, use the AMD
In tank combat mission, I think they will be dead early.



one Motorized brigade
2 RI motorized and one Dragon Porté Btn

Give them 2 Dragon Porte Regiment.
If no 4X4 transport, RI motorized.

All the DCR infantery was DP, at last in name (lacking vehicules TT)
2 x DPR double the infantery of the DCR
(PZ had 2 RI, no more)


Artillery : give them :
1 RATTTL (regiment d'artillery tractée tout terrain lourde : 36 obusiers de 105C)
1 RAD (regiment d'artillery divisionnaire : 36 obusiers de 75)
1 Gr AC (12 47mm)
1 Gp AC (12 25mm) or 2 Gr (24 pieces)

ok for the rest of the division


For the DLM : OK (if you want the best, think about 2 reg of S35 and no H39 ):laugh:

For the DLC :
you have to choice ;
upgrade the DLC in DLM (done for the 3 first DLM)
or
restructure the unit (not equipement by equipment)
Replace the AMR33 (chenillette with a MG) by a better AM.
The horse brigade must be replace by : 2 BCC (96 H39) and 1 RDP
-> becoming the fighting unit of this division.
-> 2 BCC, 2 RDP, 1 RAM

GRCA mot : Why not, use the existing format
juste change a escadron of motocyclist in an escadron of Char Léger (20 tanks).
GRDI : use the format GRDIm ( avec VB ), it 's the more powerful

[kender79]

For the DI and DIM, I propose the following strenght :

DIM
3 x RIm
1 x GRDI use the format GRDIm ( avec VB )
1 RADm
1 RADLm
integrat the Company de transport autonome (transport for the infantery)
Give them a Gr AC of 12 x 47mm AC (in place of 8)
Give them a Gr AA of 12 x 25mm AA (in place of 0?)


DI
3 x RI
1 x GRDI use the format GRDIm ( avec VB )
1 RAD
1 RADL
Give them a Gr AC of 12 x 47mm AC (in place of 8)
Give them a Gr AA of 12 x 25mm AA (in place of 0?)
no motorization out of the GRDI (see the motorization of DCR, DLC and DCR) -> horse, lots of horse
Upgrade a few unit in DIM.

[kender79]

Strategic position proposal :

From North'see to Maginot :
North army detachement (in place of the 7 Army to protect Anwerpt and help the belgium army)with :
Ier Corps d'Armée (motorisé) (1 DIM + 1 DI)
a Grp of BCC (2 BCC)

the BEF : with a little more front (from the 7th army misssing) with 3 DI in 1srt line and 3 in second (not 2-2-2). Give them more 47mm and 25mm AC.

1st Army :
1st Cavalery Corps (2 DLM)
IIIe CA
IVe CA
Ve CA(m)

9th Army
2th Cavalery Corps (2 DLM covering Namur and givet)
IIe CA
XIe CA
XLIe CAF

2nd Army
Xe Corps d'Armée
XVIIIe Corps d'Armée

...

Reserve (ready to support a Belgium Battle or to go to an other front):
1st Groupement Cuirassé (GC 1 : 2 DCR) At Maubeuge
2nd Groupement Cuirassé (GC 2: 2 DCR) At Reims
5th and 6th DCR in training (Reims?)
XXIe Corps d'Armée (mot) (St Quentin?)
XXIIIe Corps d'Armée (mot) (Verdun?)
XVIe CA (mot)

[jlbetin]

It's just too much :laugh:

A change in 1938 will give you an advance of 6-9 month in production.
Even with a GQG working efficiently, it would meet before the War some resistance from economic's players and pacifist lobby. And industrials would have some inertie before moving : see the time passed to create tools in 1939.

In my mind and following ATF40 what if of Louis Capdebosq, as Gamelin was out of service, Generals like Huntzinger, George and obviously Colonel De Gaulle could have deeply influenced the general "fighting spirit of French GQG".
Remember too that Daladier and French parliament was offering all what the army was requesting on a silver plate without any deplaced comment.
The pacifist spirit was a Pétainist propanda leitmotiv, it is not the real spirit of France in 1938 1939 time frame

(About the light tank bataillon)
Can you explain me their mission? scoutting? For scouting, use the AMD
In tank combat mission, I think they will be dead early.


In Cavalry units the H39 was used in reco mode, so I will used them too in that role!

Concerning the TO&E of French divisions except the De Gaulles fomat of Division de Ligne, I will follow the OOB of 1940, I will just tranform the DLC from Horse/Track to motorized/Track. I Will do the same for GRCA and GRDI

see my preceeding message

For DLM and DLC I will respect the TO&E of 1940 but no more horses.All light tanks are H39 with 37SA38, AMD 35 and H39 are replacing the horses companies in DLC

Same for GRCA using horses, horses will be replaced by Light tanks


More to come

Der WanderFort_Of_Hackelberg
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[jlbetin]

QUESTION :

For playability, is it better to define a unit or tank member of the 2 Light Mechanised Division by instance the 8th Cuirassiers
as
8EME CUIRASSIERS
or as
8 CUIR - 2 DLM

Your answers ?

Der WanderWhat'sYourName
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[L`zard]

QUESTION :

For playability, is it better to define a unit or tank member of the 2 Light Mechanised Division by instance the 8th Cuirassiers as
'8EME CUIRASSIERS' or as '8 CUIR - 2 DLM'

Jean-Luc;

As a non-francophone, I personally am in favor of the '8 cuir/2dlm' appelation.

Reads slightly better towards the hierarchy for me, eh?

On the other hand, the names you Francs might put on a unit certainly sound neat, LOL!

Just reading the lists of the units at Dien Bien Phu sounds like a song, eh?

Of course I've always been a fool for 'Cuirassiers', one of the few franco terms I can pronounce correctly.......that and 'Chasseurs'....LOL!



:smoke:

[kender79]

Choose
the long french for name like Named HQ : 8e Cuirassiers
Or
the short for standard name: 8e CUIR / 8e RC

[jlbetin]

Jean-Luc;

As a non-francophone, I personally am in favor of the '8 cuir/2dlm' appelation.

Reads slightly better towards the hierarchy for me, eh?

On the other hand, the names you Francs might put on a unit certainly sound neat, LOL!

Just reading the lists of the units at Dien Bien Phu sounds like a song, eh?

Of course I've always been a fool for 'Cuirassiers', one of the few franco terms I can pronounce correctly.......that and 'Chasseurs'....LOL!

:smoke:

I'm tempted by the following system I already used for Operation Lion de mer and Second Battle for France for the US units

Main formation title
XX ARMEE
sub formation
YY DI - XX ARMEE
and for units
ZZ RI - YY DI

Der WAnderIGotAnIdeaItIsPainful
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[L`zard]

JL.....

Go with what feels good to you, eh? As long as there's a doc that describes unit names (and what they are), seems like it's entirely up to you as to what sort of 'flavor' you wish to add with this.........

Just as long as ANY of us can figure it out 'on the fly', no probs!

:yummy:

[kender79]

Hi jlbetin

How is going your scenario (Or is it ready?)?

[jlbetin]

Hi jlbetin

How is going your scenario (Or is it ready?)?

On hold, as I'm full on my tournament turn 3 scenario testing.
At now, I'm still installing unitsi in the force editor.

Der WanderMultiProcessorInOneBrain