Quick Spain Question

[Chuck?]

If the Allies declare war on Spain does that withdrawal Vichy French units?

[Mark Stevens]

No, definitely not. The thinking behind Vichy collapsing if Spain is activated by the Axis is that Franco's minimum conditions included huge chunks of the French North African Empire, which would have caused a very negative reaction in France.

If the Allies choose to invade Spain, the country will mobilise (and get extra reinforcements from German stockpiles) but Vichy will remain in being, but inactive subject to the usual conditions.

You may well end up with Vichy and Spanish troops fighting side by side to stem the tide of the Jewish-Masonic-Bolshevik world conspiracy, although how that fits in with the involvement of the USA is somewhat problematic!

[Chuck?]

OK good. I was worried if the Allies decided to use Spain as the base of supply for the invasion of Western Europe that Vichy would withdrawal.

You mentioned extra reinforcements for the Spainish if the Allies declare war. Are these different than if the Axis selects the TO to bring Spain into the war?

[jaugusto72]

Okay, playing solitarie i choice the option with the axis for align Spain...and see all North Africa turn for allies..a enemy army show in France and Portugal enter in allied side....for a weak Spain. What is the advantage of make a agreement with Franco????

[Dan Neely]

slamming panzer corps into gibralter getting a supply shift and making troopruns to the med much harder for the allies.

[jaugusto72]

I Know, But i need yet march my troops in Southern France for has my troops in gibraltar...fighting against the British divisions in Portugal and UK can reinforce very fast Gibaraltar....already the fortress and the Polish Division.

Jose Augusto

[Mantis]

It should be a timed affair for the Axis. The turn you decide to activate Spain, you make sure that you have 9 powerful units sitting on the rail line. You have forces ready in Africa. You select the TO to activate Spain.

Next turn, Spain activates. 9 strong Axis units rail right beside Gibraltar. (Or almost beside it; a few Spanish can be there if you fear an attack against your embarked units). This will come as a total surprise to the Allies, as he gets no warning. All he knows is that Gibraltar is safe, then he gets his turn, sees Axis Spain, and 9 units ready to hit Gibraltar next turn.

Units in Africa take care of the few guerillas, and it's end of story. And actually, Spain has a pretty decent force. Since they're not allowed into Russia, etc, you'll find them very effective at giving a good defence for the exposed part of Africa, Gibraltar, Spain, and France.

Well worth it, if you can deal with the US EV penalty, or waiting until just after the US has entered.

[otto]

I enjoy having the ability to bring in Spain, however, the penalty for doing it as Axis seems very minor given how important taking Gibraltar is. As Mantis pointed out, the fall of Gibraltar is guaranteed. With the fall of Gibraltar comes the conquest of the entire Med. (although it can be done even before). Assuming the Axis player waits to attack Russia until the West is closed off this leaves the following type of war (I also wait to attack Norway/Denmark until after fall of Leningrad):

Italy - defends France plus 2 corps in Suez and 2 corps in Basra
Spain defends Spain/Tangiers/Casablanca
All of Germany now can go after Russia. This makes things extremely difficult for Russia (and we have a houserule that states the Barbarossa TO must be taken immediately). After the fall of Leningrad the Swedes and Fins with the help of a 3 Corps Army from Germany should be able to take Norway and hold Narvik.

Obviously, there will be a relative if not very early entry of the US. While my partner and I are on our 5th game (we have alternated sides) it seems obvious to take the pre-war builds and simply close out the West then focus all the German attention on a lone Russia. Russia is hard pressed to say the least to keep Germany from taking the entire country (Baku to Murmansk).

Given the strategic importance of Gibraltar shouldn't there be a larger penalty then +15 US Entry for Spain?

[Mark Stevens]

OK, lots of good technical analysis, now for the history.

Franco only really thought seriously about joining the war in the immediate period following the Fall of France - Summer 1940 - when the USA wasn't involved, the USSR was effectively a German ally and Britain had its proverbial back to the wall. Some of his Party and military officials were very pro-German: others were far more cautious. Spain had a very large army - around 500,000 men - experienced, but ill-equipped, and the country was devastated by the Civil War. There was semi-starvation in some areas, and Republican guerillas operating in the mountains.

Franco occupied the International Zone of Tangiers to show his good faith (June 14th 1940) but presented Hitler with a huge 'shopping list' of equipment and supplies, and a demand for great chunks of French territory as the price for Spanish entry. Although negotiations carried on for months, Hitler decided to stick with Marshal Petain's Vichy France, which represented a Mediterranean-wide power, however unenthusiastic towards Germany, as it offered bases to operate against Britain in the Middle East, and further east.

As it became clearer that Hitler's ambitions were directed more to the East, Franco's enthusiasm cooled, and by February 1941 the former had decided that the best to be hoped for from Spain was neutrality, perhaps with air bases for long-range reconnaisance flights to support the U-boats in the Atlantic, and discreet refuelling facilities.

Franco's decision to send the Blue Division to fight in the USSR in 1941 can be seen as much as an effort to get the real hard-line fascists in his army out of the country, as much as a gesture of solidarity with Germany.

As the tide turned against Germany, Franco was more concerned with staying in power, although he remained sympathetic to the Axis. The Spanish were initially terrified that the 'Torch' landings in North Africa were aimed at them.

Does the game design broadly reflect this - very abbreviated - background?

[Mantis]

I disagree with quite a bit of this, and I think I see what motivated Kerry to start that other thread. I'll answer in sections, but keep in mind that my answers, some probably right and some probably wrong, are just my opinions.

Originally posted by otto
I enjoy having the ability to bring in Spain, however, the penalty for doing it as Axis seems very minor given how important taking Gibraltar is.

I'll get back to this point, as you touch on it at the very end of the post.

As Mantis pointed out, the fall of Gibraltar is guaranteed.

I disagree. In a game with Raver, (see the 'suez' post in the EA MATH thread), the US entered and started shipping to Gibraltar. I couldn't believe my luck, as I had already selected the TO to activate Spain. Jason had no where NEAR the max units in there, he even bugged out as much as he could. I hit it with EVERYTHING. My best 9 units, carefully chosen. EVERY air unit I had. Ignore losses. Naval support. And it was a very close thing! AND my losses were HIDEOUS! THOUSANDS of HRSs, in 1 battle! I think it entirely possible that even putting 6 large units in there (certainly 9) would make that damned spot impregnable. Maybe no one will ever do this. But until someone does, it's not guaranteed, just highly likely, due to allied choice.

With the fall of Gibraltar comes the conquest of the entire Med. (although it can be done even before).

Not. Read the Suez post in the aforementioned thread. And read old threads for pics and descriptions of Ming's Axis having their heads handed to them by my Brits down there. And this is WITHOUT the lower supply levels, rail linking Ethiopia, etc, etc, etc.

Assuming the Axis player waits to attack Russia until the West is closed off this leaves the following type of war (I also wait to attack Norway/Denmark until after fall of Leningrad):

My last game, I went after Norway on the first turn of war. Took it too. Was very happy. 'Til Kerry decided that he'd jump in HARD with the Allies. That's not 'set piece', by any means!

Italy - defends France plus 2 corps in Suez and 2 corps in Basra
Spain defends Spain/Tangiers/Casablanca
All of Germany now can go after Russia. This makes things extremely difficult for Russia (and we have a houserule that states the Barbarossa TO must be taken immediately). After the fall of Leningrad the Swedes and Fins with the help of a 3 Corps Army from Germany should be able to take Norway and hold Narvik.

I use damned near the entire Italian army in the Med. They're the only units you can ship down there with Italy still neutral. I also don't like waiting on Narvik. That 5 supply is a nice thing to have under wraps.

Obviously, there will be a relative if not very early entry of the US. While my partner and I are on our 5th game (we have alternated sides) it seems obvious to take the pre-war builds and simply close out the West then focus all the German attention on a lone Russia. Russia is hard pressed to say the least to keep Germany from taking the entire country (Baku to Murmansk).

There are endless AARs of the Allies kicking the Axis butts. And we're talking some very skilled Axis butts in some cases. Read the report Kraut and Dan have going. As to closing out the west, then nailing Russia, isn't that the basic theme of pretty much every WWII game there has ever been? No. EA has the Eastern Crusade option, and Dan has recently proven that the UK can be taken. Perhaps it's not worth it, perhaps it is, but that's not even the point, is it?

Given the strategic importance of Gibraltar shouldn't there be a larger penalty then +15 US Entry for Spain? [/B]

I think it's just fine. Losing the French (while being lousy allies) gives the Brits some good units, more navy, some air... And generally, after all the US EV modifiers for France, bringing in Italy, especially the +30 for the prewar builds you take every time (so have I thus far, but I've noticed that alot of players do not, some of them with considerably more experience than me), it might just be that the penalty for Spain will be the one that brings in the US. In my 1.5 game with Dan, I know that there's a bug, and I get to keep the French AND get the Spanish... And I can't activate the little buggers, cuz the Yanks will enter. Even keeping the French, THAT cost is TOO high.

You cannot underestimate the importance of being left alone while attempting to finish the Reds off.

See, Kerry? Still very much subjective! (Help the lost one regain his faith! FIND THE PATH, KERRY, FIND THE PATH!!!

:D

[Dan Neely]

I agree completely with your overall responce, but there are a few points I want to address.

Mantis
Dan has recently proven that the UK can be taken. Perhaps it's not worth it, perhaps it is, but that's not even the point, is it?


The UK I took out in that test was very heavily defended. If the allies make a serious effort to hold the med, they won't have anywhere near that number of troops available. I had dug in along the coast 2 brit corps, 2 brit inf divs, 1 polish inf div, the brit engineer, the brit marine, 1 regular brit armor div, and the LL armor div. and a 3rd corp that just deployed the turn of the attack. asside from the 2 reserve corps all of the troops deployed in the UK stayed there. If/when I find the time, I'm planning on rereunning the test with an Egypt heavy deployment and only 1 or 2 corps left behind. For increased realism though, I intend to fight france out (partly to see how much freezing the magniot divs will shift the balance) and partly to have a more realistic number of repalcements in the inventory. The othet half of it is to see how much of an impact having signifigantly fewer troops on the east front will degrade the offensive. The flip side is that a number of russian units are keyed to the barbarossa bonus for deployment, for attacking the axis, the soviets only get 2 tank corps. They loose 3 very large, high supply mech corps, and 3 similar arty corps, as well as 7 irregular corps. the second batch of German bonuses for being attacked is rather nice too. the 1st one only gives a few crappy units that are basically only good for garisson duty, the second gives 3 large reserve corps with heavy armor (96 panther, and 48 tiger1) and 3 very powerful panzer corps (448 pz4e, 96 panther, 192 tiger1) Once these units fill up thier arty slots, they'll have attack ratings similar to the really big SS corps. At 30-38 turns after russian DoW they're too late to do any good the 1st year, but should prove quite vaulable breaking out the next.


I think it's just fine. Losing the French (while being lousy allies) gives the Brits some good units, more navy, some air...


the air is the real biggie here. Multiple mass airstrikes supported by the italian fleet will gut the reynaud navy if not sink it entirely. The air units are basically unkillable though. I smashed the entire Luftwaffe and most of the Regia Auronotica into a single Reynaud AF stack and got brutally mauled. I don't remember the details, but the losses were horrific. In my game with Kraut most of 1941 had allied AS because of those units. Attrititon and evaps have largely ground the edge away, but you'll definately be hurting for a while. In earlier versions several Reynaud corps deployed in the UK, but in 1.8 they're all set to deploy in former French territory. This IMO is one of the few pro axis changes made in recent revisions, the other 2 being freezing hte french fortress divs at the start, and increasing HR AT squads from 272 to 300/turn.

[Palantir]

Originally posted by Mantis
See, Kerry? Still very much subjective! (Help the lost one regain his faith! FIND THE PATH, KERRY, FIND THE PATH!!!:D

I"M LOOKING, I"M LOOKING!!!!:crosseye: :surprise:

Maybe I'm not getting enough :banana: :banana: :banana:

Now I feel better. :D

There've been some good points made and I will most certainly keep them in mind. After all this is a "discussion board!" :nofear:

Kerry :cheeky:

[jaugusto72]

Well, same with my clear mistake for dont know all things happening with the Spain join in axis..is very funny..the wermacht running for can take the trains in spain..and Spain running for secure beaches in north Africa and smash Lisbon and the english troops in Portugal...

Jose Augusto