So Just How Involved Is It?

[Fading Captain]

Europe Alfame is one of those scenarios that I often open up and stare at with great wonder and amazement, but I have yet to play it. I have a huge interest in grand strategy and alternative WWII history, but it is the 300 turns that I find so daunting--talk about an exercise in delayed gratification!

So my questions for those people that play this monster a lot are. . .

Just how involved is it? (especially when compared to other scenarios) How much time do you spend on one of these turns? Do most games run the full lenght of turns, or do most end early?

At least at the beginning, the number of units seems very reasonable. I was thinking of maybe trying to get a game going over my Christmass break :hmmm:

Fading Captain

[Dan Neely]

Originally posted by Fading Captain

Just how involved is it? (especially when compared to other scenarios) How much time do you spend on one of these turns?


rarely more than an hour. Barbarossa turns take abour 4x as long as poland, which should give you a baseline to judge how long you'd need.


Do most games run the full lenght of turns, or do most end early?


the longest I've had a game go was until turn 180. I completed 1 game before winter 41/42 and have 2 more that are looking to end in a similar time frame. MY game with kraut on the other hand looks like it's going to go the distance. I've swept Lenningrad and points north, as well as north africa, only to bog down in persia due to a lack of armor. My drive on moscow stalled several hexes outside the fort perimiter. his defensive line is along the rail line from 134,69 to rayazan, south through micurnsk, vorozezh, karkov and then south where the deniper swings to the farthest east. I've blown a 5hex wide hole starting at kharkov and heading east. i'm aiming to capture the donnets basin and shorten my line before winter sets in in the next 2-3 months. Beyond that I don't know. I'd like to drive on moscow or stalingrad in hte spring, but unless I bag more troops in my breakout than I'm expecting to I don't think I'll be able to. By passing on LL kraut got the US in mid 1940, and despite giving the allies a nasty mauling in murmansk I'm going to have to start worrying about the west front before too much longer.

[Chuck?]

The turns really don't take very long. Usually between 10-15 minutes. It depends on how long between turns. If you are going to go 2 or 3 days between turns then it will take a while to remember what happened in the previous turn. A quicker pace allows you to remember more and get the turns done fast.

I'm playing two EA games currently and both will probably go to at least turn 250. I almost knocked Raver out but he has weathered the Axis onrush and it should be a Soviet offensive from this point on. However I've done a lot of damage to the Allies and should be able limit his advance.

Against SkyVon I've beaten the UK but don't have the Barbarossa bonus so the Eastern Front is going to be a long, bloody stalemate. With the forts and bonus units as well as the complete control of the Western Front I can't see myself losing even if I can't win outright.

[Mark Stevens]

I reckon on an averge move being twenty minutes or so, unless you really enjoy going into the casualty report after every phase and keeping a note of how many anti-tank guns you've lost. The key thing is to find an opponent who is happy to play at the same speed as you are: it's frustrating if you're determined to complete a turn a day, but you're playing someone who has to go away on frequent business trips. Equally, it's no good you trying to keep up with a student or I.T. maniac who's constantly on-line and responds to every move within minutes.

It is a big game, and there are periods of - dare I say it - boredom, when not much is happening.

As you asked, I don't think many games do go the full distance: once a player sees that he's lost, he'll often concede and start again, rather than play out a long. slow retreat that will inevitably end in defeat three months (real time) later.

Have a look at a few of the AARs on this Board - they'll give you a real flavour of how the scenario can develop, and some are very well narrated and illustrated.

Perhpas try the Polish Campaign as a solo effort, playing both sides, and see whether you think it's for you, and take the opportunity to see how the shipping, naval and air units are modelled?

[Mantis]

Captain, if you don't try this out at least once, you'll be doing yourself a disservice. It is without a doubt the best of the breed.

Don't worry about the 300 turns. It very rarely ever gets close to that. Players have usually crushed each other (or themselves) by then.

I know the scenario can be daunting if you've never played out something so big; the Russian line scared all hells out of me until I actually started doing it, and then it was a blast! Section at a time, and it's easy as pie. The sheer length of it intimidates, but it's really no different than doing Yugo/Greece at the same time as fighting the Brits in Africa, while finishing Norway... Break it down. North, south, etc.

And, as you stated, at the beginning, the amount of units is VERY manageable. And (especially as the Axis) it grows so casually that far from becoming cumbersome, you'll be getting POed because 'that's way too long to wait before my next Panzer!'

You'll never stop patting yourself on the back for deciding to get into this.

:hail: :hail: :hail: EA :nofear: :nofear: :nofear:

[Kraut]

Originally posted by Dan Neely


I've blown a 5hex wide hole starting at kharkov and heading east. i'm aiming to capture the donnets basin and shorten my line before winter sets in in the next 2-3 months. Beyond that I don't know. I'd like to drive on moscow or stalingrad in hte spring, but unless I bag more troops in my breakout than I'm expecting to I don't think I'll be able to. By passing on LL kraut got the US in mid 1940, and despite giving the allies a nasty mauling in murmansk I'm going to have to start worrying about the west front before too much longer.

Yes, that was a nasty move !! Really took my by surprise, I didn't expected Dan to launch anothe major offensive before winter!
Naturally this turn took a little longer than my normal moves (this time about a hour, normal 10-30 min.) and the next few turn will get very interesting and time consuming! BUT it's worth it ! :D :D
This scenario is very exciting, you absolutely _have_ to try it, it's worth every minute! (Thanx Mark & Ulver !!)

Go go go ! :D :nofear: :D

[Palantir]

One thing that should be mentioned:

If you choose to play the Allied side be ready for months and months (of real time) on end of doing nothing but getting beaten and pushed around. The Axis CAN go anywhere and TAKE anything they want, (minus Sealion maybe) it just depends on WHAT he wants, and that determines the games direction.
:violin:

Be ready for the "Battered Allied Syndrome," which is real in this game! You can thank Mark for that. :confused:

The opportunity for the Allies to do anything "offensive" is nearly non-existant. The only bright spots appear to be defending well before you get crushed. :whlchr:

But if you can hold out till '42-'43 (Turns +150?) I'm told the Allies finally get the opportunity to kick Axis butt.
And that I can't wait for!!! :D

DO YOU HEAR THAT Mantis, MattyB & Siberian!!!! :cheeky:

[Mantis]

No, I don't buy that anymore.

You CAN have some fun as the Allies. As I've stated, no one has eaten my France (and yes, it's fallen every time) without looking back and going &^#@ing OUCH! Pasting the German/Italian navy is also great fun.

But let's talk new version! Never-before-seen bonuses and a new hex opening in the exclusion zone make Finland more viable than ever before. A mobilised Yugo/Greece should make that area much more of a bloodbath. Even though it falls (and perhaps without any stunning Axis defeats), experience will teach you that a stubborn death is as good as wiping a few units here and there; perhaps better.

After playing through the Axis a few times, you'll get the 'feel' of where your HRS losses should be sitting. A nasty Allied bastard, who bleeds you for every hex you take, can have you finished before you ever start a Barbarossa; you just might not know it for another year and a half... No matter what happens, there are only so many HRSs in the game for the German player. And going into battle with the Reds with an extra 20k HRS losses is a harbinger of doom.

One of the guys that bailed on me had just defeated my France. He had 60K+ HRS losses! (Can you say 'I made it til the Sitz?')

Africa looks MUCH more tasty for an allied player than ever before. With the Axis supply point moved west, just getting into British terrain nets you a max supply level of 8. (This is with Narvik under allied control; perhaps it's up to 12 otherwise?) This is assuming that:

a> you don't move
b> you have an HQ beside you

Will take quite awhile to recover from a 30% level, eh?

At that level, a Brit nailing you with a spoiling attack will eat a tiny bit more than you can gain back in a turn. Nasty, hmm? Sure, there's the Italian supply unit, but the Brits have one too, and a much higher supply level to begin with...

Let's also keep in mind that now there is a rail connecting Ethiopia with the Canal. In the old version, if I saw a huge Axis buildup in Africa prior to Italian entry, I shipped everything to the canal, and to hell with E. Africa. if I win, I'll crush it after. If I lose, the Brits that appear in E. Africa will be enough (albeit slowly) to crush the Italians.

But now, you can ship a couple good sized units to E. Africa, finish the job in record time, and rail the entire force to the Canal long before the Axis can get there. And, if it all turns to hell, there's also a way to bug out from the canal.

No, I think the game has never been better for Allied opportunities early in the war. I hear what the overall message is, however, and that is that the initiative is solidly with the Axis. And so it is. But that is not to say, for one solitary second, that a patient, observant Allied player can't have one HELLUVA good time!

Maybe I'm just a bit of a freak, but the early Allied turns are actually my favorites. The Axis player has waaaay too much going on, and I've yet to see any player get from '39 to '41 without screwing up somewhere. I absolutely live for the opportunity to say "Oh, by the way, did you notice this?

:rifle:

[Chuck?]

The Axis player will now likely have to play a near perfect game to win. Taking out France in '39 isn't really an option. The Balkans are going to be very bloody. Attacking France from Italy isn't the sexy option it once was. The Winter War looks a lot better. North Africa is going to be tougher.

I don't think I'd want to play as the Axis again, especially against an experienced player.

[Tex]

In my 1.8 game it's the end of 1940 (turn 78) and I've already lost 47,000 HRS as the Axis. Am I doomed?

I really botched my invasion of France, which became a mini-Verdun for five months. Since then I think I've done pretty well. I'm in complete control of Yugoslavia and Greece. In North Africa I've moved the front to a few hexes west of El Alamein. And to relieve the pressure in North Africa I was able to open up a second Middle Eastern front along Damascus.

[Chuck?]

Originally posted by Tex
In my 1.8 game it's the end of 1940 (turn 78) and I've already lost 47,000 HRS as the Axis. Am I doomed?

probably

[Dan Neely]

Originally posted by Tex
In my 1.8 game it's the end of 1940 (turn 78) and I've already lost 47,000 HRS as the Axis. Am I doomed?


In my game with Kraut I lost a similar total in France and NA. I've captured Karelia, murmanks, and lenningrad. from msocow south my average westward penetration as of turn 122 is to column 133. If you've killed France you should be able to put a real hurting on the russians, but unless your opponent screws up you'll be uable to take them out. IF france is hanging on somehow though, you're screwed. I'd suggest adopting a defensive policy in Africa. With the losses you've taken the farther losses needed to capture suez aren't worth the supply shift given

[Chuck?]

Trying to take out both Moscow and Stalingrad is going to chew up tens of thousands of HRS, there is no way around it. The Soviets will get those hordes of reinforcements and just wear you out. Another thing is once you take one of the two cities the Soviets get some Far East Reserve units which are really tough and they can be put in the city not taken yet.

[Tex]

Originally posted by Dan Neely
IF france is hanging on somehow though, you're screwed. I'd suggest adopting a defensive policy in Africa. With the losses you've taken the farther losses needed to capture suez aren't worth the supply shift given [/B]
France was knocked out in August 1940. I've committed so many Korps in the Middle East I feel a bit obligated to finish the job.

[Kraut]

If you are able to completely expel the allied from africa (ALL of africa) and capture Gibraltar you can easily seal off the mediterran area and the allied will have a hard time getting back to Africa.
You can also combine your Barbarossa attack with a fast blow through Persia to capture Baku. But be warned, Persia is excellent defence terrain and there is only one road/railway going north to supply your troops. If the Soviets put up a good defence here they can stall your advance.

[Mantis]

47k HRS losses isn't the end of your game. You can still win, you're just somewhat 'under the bar'. You'll need to make up for it somewhere to be back on track. Catching a very large pocket of Russians, wiping all the UKs units by not allowing them to escape Africa, capitalizing on a mistake by your opponent... Any of these will help swing the balance back in your favor.

Also, keep in mind that Dan has taken out a rather heavily defended UK. You can always try this option, as well!

[Dan Neely]

I had a large number of HRS available as replacements to do so though, IIRC I only lost between 3 and 5 k steamrollering the allied capitals o nthe continent. With the losses you've suffered, I wouldn't try invading unless your opponent has left the UK naked.

[Chuck?]

I've also taken out the UK and would only suggest trying it if your opponent has most UK units elsewhere. Also you need to first win the Battle of Britain which is a 50% chance. Another thing to think about is if the Soviets can be shipped from the USSR to the UK. In the new version a line of black non-playable hex was added to Norway to make this difficult.

[Fading Captain]

Much thanks for the encouraging replies gentlemen. My conscience can now rest at ease. I now know that a mere mortal like myself can handle this scenario. And the talk of Axis and Allied strategy that this thread spun off on actually makes me want to play the game even more.

I have no doubt that I will take take on this game soon. But for now I must remain steadfast and avoid the temptation. When work gives me a break and when my current PBEM load eases, I will certainly give it a spin.

As a side note, shouldn't some type of contract be drawn up and signed between EA player's prior to starting a game? Completing a game of this size and lenght is no easy task, and certain points should certainly be agreed upon before hand to avoid potential legal disputes. In terms of choosing an opponent it seems a bit like marriage: you will be with this person a long time and make many difficult decisions together, and sometimes you will wake up in the morning and not like them; you must choose your partner very carefully :D

[Basilhare]

Originally posted by Fading Captain
As a side note, shouldn't some type of contract be drawn up and signed between EA player's prior to starting a game? Completing a game of this size and lenght is no easy task, and certain points should certainly be agreed upon before hand to avoid potential legal disputes. In terms of choosing an opponent it seems a bit like marriage: you will be with this person a long time and make many difficult decisions together, and sometimes you will wake up in the morning and not like them; you must choose your partner very carefully :D

There is alot of truth in this.....I would encourage you to have a pregame discussion with your opponent and talk about house rules, etc.. by far (probably 19 of 20) of my experiences with PBEM/EA have been positive...the key is to get hold of someone who enjoys the campaign and wants to play to have fun rather than excercise his rules lawyering ability and win at all costs.....I have had just as much fun loosing in EA (re: my very first game with Duri in v 1.1)as winning, especially when it is a close game.....LOL

[Mantis]

Originally posted by Basilhare
I have had just as much fun loosing in EA (re: my very first game with Duri in v 1.1)as winning, especially when it is a close game.....LOL

Which begs the question, Faron...

Is that the most recent loss you've suffered? ;)

[Basilhare]

Originally posted by Mantis


Which begs the question, Faron...

Is that the most recent loss you've suffered? ;)

Sorry, Mantis....just noticed your post...better late than never....

If we are talking actual completed games (called at some point) I have clearly lost 2 games of the 20+ or so that I started....in most of my games, my opponent has bailed out on me by turn 150 or so...I dont know if these qualify as actual wins since the games were undecided....in many cases the games were going "my way" but who knows....I have won only a couple of games where my opponent was polite enough to stand up and say "Hey, I think you are going to win this one...let's call the game."

In fairness, I too, have quit two EA games for personal reasons....but I did tell my opponent I was withdrawing.....

Of the regulars that post to this list, I have had only good experiences......I highly recommend guys like Dan Neely and others on this list , all of which are good eggs.....fun to game against....

I have never had very good luck in actually finishing one of these monsters....I would love to hear of other veteran EA gamer's experiences with their ratio of "called/finished" games vs. opponents dropping off the face of the planet....

The furthest I ever got in an EA game was an exciting EC game which went to about Turn 250 with Ulver (I was Allies).....My Russians had overrun Romania and my French/Brit army was within 12 hexes of Berlin...very enjoyable game, but then I lost contact with Ulver....I think he got pretty busy in real life....

[Dan Neely]

The farthest I've ever gotten was my ~turn 180 concession to you. At that point, I doubt I'd've lasted more than another 20 turns. The only other game I've 'completed' so far ended when I took out Shims (andrews) russia in the last days of 1941. I've got 2 more games that will probabally ending some time in 1941. IN one Mantis is doing the same to me that I did to Shim.

In the second it's turn 106, and my Anglo-French forces have stopped the German advance into France; stopped, counter attacked, and crushed the Italian advance accross the alps, and leveraged it into a sweep through the balkans, and north through poland and austria. I'm 2 hexes south of Berlin in from the south, but heavy panzer concentrations have stalled my drive forward. instead I've ruptured his lines around Schwienfurt, and am hoping to force him to withdraw from the liepzig-exfurt salient, and his fortified line behind the rhine, or at least force him to pull his armor away from berlin so I can resume the advance there. Following a counter attack on his part, I've pushed the west flank of the salient back a hex and have largely encircled the remnants of his line on the rhine after it was depleted for the attack. Unless he can stabilize the situation soon, he may be forced to withdraw behind the Weser to avoid having his forces in the Netherlands cut off. The battered SS corp and para div on the north have been the on thier own for several turns, just managing to avoid the traps that the corps sent to relieve them fall into. So far this offensive has netted me 1 panzer, and 3 or 4 leg corps prisoner, and I'm hoping to add a few more from the rhine next turn. IN the east, German forces have voluntarily withdrawn behind the Oder to shorten thier lines, leaving only Konigsburg as an outpost to the east. The previous turn Stalin accepted the swedish surrender. And has offered his aid in crushing the fascists, but the allies are strangely reluctant to allow him to enter liberated poland. The screenshot is from the end of t106 and has rear areas cencored against the possibilty of German inteligence gaining information about my reserves.

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Chuck
The Balkans are going to be very bloody.

Something needs to be done about that. Historically the Germans invading Yugoslavia took more casualties from traffic accidents than enemy action.

[Mark Stevens]

I think that if you get the historical combination right, i.e. overwhelming German, Italian and other Axis allies entering from all directions and the 'Marita' bonus being automatically triggered, Yugoslavia is a walk-over. It's like France in a Spring 1940 offensive - should the Yugoslavs be forced to fall to bits, or be able to make a better stand?

But no way is it going to be '...very bloody...' unless the Axis attack with much less and from only one direction. Even then, a decent German force would be in Belgrade within a few turns.