View Full Version : Drakken vs murphstein
Here I must admit that I am very overwhelmed, and each move I make wrecks my gut in anxiety. I have this offensive coming onto me and, truth be told, Iam blank on what to do next. I tried one limited counter attack on minimal lossses and my losses were always higher than the Allies.
Also, none of my artillery is on range to try to disrupt their artillery.
Finally, the Allies have complete air superiority, which means that all my moves were intercepted, with heavy losses of their own.
So, I used my fusillers that were a few hexes behind and filled the holes in the part of the 8th Army and digged trenches with most of my troops. I did not move forward my troops behind the Gothic line. Surely a mistake, but hey... I AM a newbie.
My aim is passive forward defense to slow the Allies as much as possible and as costly as possible, counting on my reinforcements to fill any hole that might come. Right now the Allies have wasted one round with no significant absence. The holes were filled as much as I could, and now my troops are even better entrenched, waiting for the next onslaught. No more stupid counterattacks unless an opportunity present itself.
Sadly, I forgot to make a SAV file before I pressed End of Turn. :paperbag:
I will at least put a SAV file for the beginning of the turn 1 when I come back home tonight.
In the meantime, I would appreciate if you could give this PBEM n00b some tips on how to handle new turns with a level-headed frame of mind and/or to combat anxiety about fear of making a mistake. I know this is a game, but still... :)
Here is the SAL file of Axis Turn 2. I haven't done anything in my turn.
I would really like some inputs, because I feel a little abandoned right now and I need a helping hand. Pesaro is holding still, but my left flank is being overrun and I have no reinforcement anytime soon. Also, my LW is being put to rubble and moving any of my units will meet up with heavy interdiction.
I try not to panic, but I am blank as of what to do next. I feel like such a n00b. I just made myself a bitmap image and I'll look over the situation and make sure I do not make a stupid move... :upset:
Allright, I have taken a few minutes to cool off and look at the map, and here are a few things I have noted on my situation.
- The principal attack is directed on Pesaro, no doubt about that. The problem is, however, that the units on my left flank have been severely battered and I cannot bring the routed units across the Reggio river. I thus cannot concede Pesaro without threatening a disastrous surrounding of my routed units. I will bring my units in Gabbicce Mare closer to Pesaro to make a fighting stand before they cross the river.
- In the center, the salient is now too vulnerable, it has been effectively breached. I find the best solution either is a fighting retreat until San Angelo, with the risk of being the back on the wall of the Reggio river, or to retreat behind the Gothic line between Mondaino and Montecchio. I must maintain it at least one turn to prevent another pocket being formed around the routed units and give them the time to reorganize. Those who do not will be left as a screening troops which will be sacrified in favour of gaining time to regroup and reorganize.
- I will check the weather and move on cloudy or rainy hexes to limit interdiction as much as possible.
- Montecalvo seems to hold out for now, I will reinforce it with the infantry units just who are just behind the Gothic line. Another advantage of retreating toward Mondaino is that I could flank the Americans on Montecalvo and transform the town into a deadly funnel.
Comments?
Allright, I have taken a few minutes to cool off and look at the map, and here are a few things I have noted on my situation.
- The principal attack is directed on Pesaro, no doubt about that. The problem is, however, that the units on my left flank have been severely battered and I cannot bring the routed units across the Reggio river. I thus cannot concede Pesaro without threatening a disastrous surrounding of my routed units. I will bring my units in Gabbicce Mare closer to Pesaro to make a fighting stand before they cross the river.
- In the center, the salient is now too vulnerable, it has been effectively breached. I find the best solution either is a fighting retreat until San Angelo, with the risk of being the back on the wall of the Reggio river, or to retreat behind the Gothic line between Mondaino and Montecchio. I must maintain it at least one turn to prevent another pocket being formed around the routed units and give them the time to reorganize. Those who do not will be left as a screening troops which will be sacrified in favour of gaining time to regroup and reorganize.
- I will check the weather and move on cloudy or rainy hexes to limit interdiction as much as possible.
- Montecalvo seems to hold out for now, I will reinforce it with the infantry units just who are just behind the Gothic line. Another advantage of retreating toward Mondaino is that I could flank the Americans on Montecalvo and transform the town into a deadly funnel.
Comments?
I cannot look into your turn, specifically, as I'm at work.
However, have you read the threads for General Staff vs Elmer and Murphstein? They are very insightful and would likely help you out lots before a veteran can look at your turn specifically.
If you post a bitmap I may be able to comment on it later tonight...maybe.
The problem is that my bitmap file is 5,83 mg, so it goes far beyond the attachment size limit! Even in JPEG format it is 1,94 mg. :surprise:
However, have you read the threads for General Staff vs Elmer and Murphstein? They are very insightful and would likely help you out lots before a veteran can look at your turn specifically.
Yes, I read it in part. However, I totally missplayed my first turn, and I am currently paying the price of playing that turn in a hurry.
Yes, I read it in part. However, I totally missplayed my first turn, and I am currently paying the price of playing that turn in a hurry.
Ah, that sucks. When I get home I will, hopefully, if I am awake and rememeber and GS hasnt already taken a look, take a look at your save and give advice.
Here's the screenie - you can always upload it to a picture hosting page if it exceeds GS' maximum file size. I cut it down to display the important area and reduced it to a 270kb jpg.
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3739/neu2dl5.jpg
Now..that hurts, 65% interdiction - that is murderous. Most part of your FJ Div south of the Foglia River is probably lost. You can feel at least a bit lucky though - your infantry around Petriano is still in a relatively good shape. Be prepared for bitter losses if you move though. And you'll have to move. Defend as far forward as possible, block the road to S.Angelo with these infantry forces from Petriano split up and spread out and dig-in with ignore losses. Nevertheless leave some of them guarding their current frontline and Petriano. Try to get some depht. Get the artillery out of harms way. If possible build combined arms stacks, that means infantry + some kind of AT capable equipment (Tanks, Tankdestroyers, AT Guns, Flak). Move what still can move from the Fallschirmjägers south of the Foglia river towards the road to S.Angelo. Split the FJ battalion and the Flak Abteilung in Pesaro in two pieces each, use one company of each to dig in in Pesaro and one of each to dig in on the bridge over the Foglia. Blow the bridge! Blow it. Don't forget to blow it. Dig in behind th Pesaro bridge too, use a company from the TD Bn on the coast to back up this hex. Cover the Foglia river crossing at Montecchio and occupy S.Angelo itself. Be mentally prepared to blow the bridge and to let your southern units make their last stand soon.
Generally: Split up your units, build combines arms stacks, use the 2 up 1 back deployment as proposed by General Staff.
Maybe use your artillery to bombard high density hexes, though regarding interdiction save this for later in the game. You'll be subject to interdiction strikes before each combat round begins, that could be pretty painfull and brutal.
I moved some units to test the amount of interdiction and got hit every hex i moved. Ouch. But at least no evaporations.
Last but not least, pray for worser weather..:laugh:
My 2 cents.
EDIT: Feel free to ask anything - there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.
Just to tell you how Interdiction is murderous, I splitted up some Infantry in 3 to move them, and each part got destroyed by Interdiction. Evaporated. Gone. :(
My first question would be, where did you get so beautiful maps? I want it! :)
Here's the screenie - you can always upload it to a picture hosting page if it exceeds GS' maximum file size. I cut it down to display the important area and reduced it to a 270kb jpg.
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3739/neu2dl5.jpg
Now..that hurts, 65% interdiction - that is murderous. Most part of your FJ Div south of the Foglia River is probably lost. You can feel at least a bit lucky though - your infantry around Petriano is still in a relatively good shape. Be prepared for bitter losses if you move though. And you'll have to move. Defend as far forward as possible, block the road to S.Angelo with these infantry forces from Petriano split up and spread out and dig-in with ignore losses. Nevertheless leave some of them guarding their current frontline and Petriano. Try to get some depht. Get the artillery out of harms way. If possible build combined arms stacks, that means infantry + some kind of AT capable equipment (Tanks, Tankdestroyers, AT Guns, Flak). Move what still can move from the Fallschirmjägers south of the Foglia river towards the road to S.Angelo. Split the FJ battalion and the Flak Abteilung in Pesaro in two pieces each, use one company of each to dig in in Pesaro and one of each to dig in on the bridge over the Foglia. Blow the bridge! Blow it. Don't forget to blow it. Dig in behind th Pesaro bridge too, use a company from the TD Bn on the coast to back up this hex. Cover the Foglia river crossing at Montecchio and occupy S.Angelo itself. Be mentally prepared to blow the bridge and to let your southern units make their last stand soon.
Generally: Split up your units, build combines arms stacks, use the 2 up 1 back deployment as proposed by General Staff.
Maybe use your artillery to bombard high density hexes, though regarding interdiction save this for later in the game. You'll be subject to interdiction strikes before each combat round begins, that could be pretty painfull and brutal.
I moved some units to test the amount of interdiction and got hit every hex i moved. Ouch. But at least no evaporations.
Last but not least, pray for worser weather..:laugh:
My 2 cents.
EDIT: Feel free to ask anything - there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.
Thanks, Stefan, for giving advice here, I really just don't have enough time to sit down and go over a turn. One of the reasons I am happy that Frances will have the opportunity to get advice from all of the veterans here. :D
As soon as I am able to make less heavy screens, I will include an edited pic with my planned moves for this turn... I think that murphstein will forgive me if I take my time this time...
And I really want to know what mod Telumar is using for his map. :)
And I really want to know what mod Telumar is using for his map. :)
My own.. :laugh:
Look here in the download section under talonsoft -> toaw -> misc for Graphic Mods. Can't exactly tell you what i use.. it's a mixture from different mods, mainly my own and classical terrain. Maybe i should put it together as it is and upload it as the new TeluMod. Counters are from JMass (tiles_squared or tiles_rounded) - really great looking, James and Ralph should use them as the default ones.
There are a lot of nice mods there, just take a look. You can combine al gusto. You'll find even german tactical symbols.
Just to tell you how Interdiction is murderous, I splitted up some Infantry in 3 to move them, and each part got destroyed by Interdiction. Evaporated. Gone.
Annoying.. well, it's a bit gamey, move armour and flak first, then the more vulnerable units.
Or move the entire battalion and split up in-situ - if your deployment plans fit with this procedure.
I also wrote to murphstein to warn him I'll take my time to post my next turn. He replied that if the position is judged irrecuperable, he kindly offers to start anew if it can make a better learning experience for me.
That said, with Telumar's sobering and enlightening post I see that my position is far from being untenable despite my situation on the left flank, as he has already wasted two turns without being even near San Angelo. So feel free to comment. :)
I also wrote to murphstein to warn him I'll take my time to post my next turn. He replied that if the position is judged irrecuperable, he kindly offers to start anew if it can make a better learning experience for me.
That said, with Telumar's sobering and enlightening post I see that my position is far from being untenable despite my situation on the left flank, as he has already wasted two turns without being even near San Angelo. So feel free to comment. :)
Btw, where are your engineers? If possible don't use them in the frontline as their ability to help other units with entrenching is too valuable in this scenario. That's the procedure:
Move the engineer unit into the same hex like the unit you want to dig-in, select the unit, dig-in. Don't dig in the engineers. Move the engineers to the next unit you want to dig-in and repeat. Etc.
Why? The entrenchment level a unit can reach in one turn is dependent on the total engineering capability of all units in the hex. Mostly a unit that is ordered to dig in only reaches the D level, but with the additional presence of the engineers it will most probably reach the E level in one turn, then, in the next turn, the F level (transition from E to F mostly, but not always, can be achieved without additional help from engineers). You can set up a fortified line within two turns with this procedure which will greatly increase your defensive strength.
Note that you need not to dig in in a fortified hex (terrain: Fortified). Here your units receive the F bonus even if they are in mobile deployment or enter the hex with their last MPs.
Note also that the fortified line terrain doesn't work like escarpments - despite its look it's not a hexside feature. No matter from which direction the attacker attacks, the defender will always get the F bonus.
Yes, I used my engineers as frontline units... like I said, I rushed my first turn and improvised. :OHNO:
Here is my first draft for the planning for turn 2. It's only a first draft as it is not rafined.
Basically, I wish to use the woods and/or weather as a cover against interception, sacrificing movement points for cover from airpower. However, I think there are too much movement being planned in one single turn, so I fear a mauling.
Also, I wish to use my artillery for one last preparatory barrage before retreating them closer to the Gothic Line.
I hope my "marks" will be easy for you to understand. :)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2939/turn2proposalmj1.jpg
Stop...stop..No no no.. do you intend to give up Pesaro without a fight? Hold Pesaro and make him pay as i initially stated. Divide the FJ Bn and the Flak unit in two pieces each. One of each digs in in Pesaro itself, the other pair holds the bridge, and blows it. This will cut off the units in Pesaro from supply, but you'll benefit from sacrificing those units - it could be costly for him to storm the city against entrenched infantry without the flanking bonus. Then he still has to take the bridge, which has urban terrain, too. Don't forget to dig in something in the urban hex adjacent to (northwest of) the bridge, too. Last, but not least it will cost him valuable time.
Otherwise it's okay, but i strongly suggest to occupy S.Angelo, the bridge and Montecchio. It's in his path of advance. Blow the bridge as soon as he's in front of it, no matter how many units are still on the south bank of the Foglia. Move the artillery over the Foglia or it will be lost - even if moving them means they get out of supporting distance.
Yes, I used my engineers as frontline units... like I said, I rushed my first turn and improvised. :OHNO:
:angry:;) ..there's always a penal battalion somewhere on the Ostfront that needs you to fill up its ranks...:devious:
:angry:;) ..there's always a penal battalion somewhere on the Ostfront that needs you to fill up its ranks...:devious:
Well, usually the Wehrmacht training and formation cover operational aspects just like these, so it is better to make this noobish mistake in a kriegspiel than on the battlefield. It's easier not repeating it next time... :devious:
As for Pesaro, the image may seem as if I were leaving Pesaro without a fight, but that is not my intention. I intend to spread part of the units over that hex and blow the bridge, like you intended. I fully intend to leave them there at Ignore Losses and dug-in as much as possible.
Also, I thought of perhaps attempting a limited counterattack near Montecalvo to push that Allied infantry away, take that bridge with a divided part of a unit, and blow it off....
Well, usually the Wehrmacht training and formation cover operational aspects just like these, so it is better to make this noobish mistake in a kriegspiel than on the battlefield. It's easier not repeating it next time... :devious:
:laugh:
As for Pesaro, the image may seem as if I were leaving Pesaro without a fight, but that is not my intention. I intend to spread part of the units over that hex and blow the bridge, like you intended. I fully intend to leave them there at Ignore Losses and dug-in as much as possible.
Ah - okay. I really had the impression you woud abandon the city.
Also, I thought of perhaps attempting a limited counterattack near Montecalvo to push that Allied infantry away, take that bridge with a divided part of a unit, and blow it off....
Yeah - do that. :cool: From the screenie it looks like he's beyond the range of his own artillery - maybe examine those stacks if there's artillery within them. Your units are in fortified terrain, so it won't matter if they lose their fortified deployment. They will in each case keep the F bonus in Montecalvo when on the defence.
The Jagdpanzer Abteilung already in place should perform good against his recon unit, add infantry to the attack and as much artillery as possible. Make sure you only need one attack to accomplish this because the pre-combat-round interdiction strikes will be very painfully. Maybe the only reason not to do it. You must know yourself.
Btw, i would leave the lone Füsilier Bn 10 km west of Fossombrone where it is. It's Zone of Control will impose movement penalties to bypassing enemy units. To keep up speed he must attack it and this way you force him to attack from three river hexes, partially over a minor escarpment and only from one hex without an offensive penalty. (though maybe in the face of CW artillery it doesn't matter at all..:cry:)
Is blowing up the bridge near Montecalvo enough an objective to try an attack on "Minimize assault", instead?
Is blowing up the bridge near Montecalvo enough an objective to try an attack on "Minimize assault", instead?
If i were you i would do it. I went through this ordeal as the germans against nemo once. Do all you can to delay the allies. I would attack on limited losses with at least one unit (i would take the Jagdpanzers) on non-limited attack. And add as much artillery, preferably direct support, to the attack to make sure you'll need only one attack (no matter how many combat rounds) to take the bridge.
->Why should you try to use up only one attack? Because before each round of resolved combats the enemy air force will hit you with interdiction strikes. You won't him to strike twice or three times, won't you?
I was curious if the germans really could accomplish this - i ran a trial and managed to snatch the bridge, but with heavy losses due to interdiction strikes and enemy supporting artillery. It took me two combat rounds with 60% of the turn left after taking the bridge. I attacked with the Jagdpanzers (which are actually italian Semoventes..argh), one infantry battalion and ...ahem..one engineer bn..direct support came from the artillery further north.
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2669/montecalvobridgedg8.jpg
I was curious if the germans really could accomplish this - i ran a trial and managed to snatch the bridge, but with heavy losses due to interdiction strikes and enemy supporting artillery. It took me two combat rounds with 60% of the turn left after taking the bridge. I attacked with the Jagdpanzers (which are actually italian Semoventes..argh), one infantry battalion and ...ahem..one engineer bn..direct support came from the artillery further north.
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2669/montecalvobridgedg8.jpg
That's why I suggested a limited attack instead, so that I may divide a unit afterwards, send it over the bridge, blow it up, and attempt to return behind the river.
Hm. but you can safely retreat with all units except the last one. Read the section 'Disengagement' in the manual. I positioned the JPz Co. on the blown bridge because, if he doesn't get a RBC, he will have to fight for the bridge. Costs him one combat round at least.
Well, you'll have to know by your own, you must not copy what i did.
General Staff
18 Oct 07, 18:08
Not sure whether anyone has covered this but you can run an HQ or an arty unit (even a piece of one) out on to a bridge, blow it and get back safe and sound with no disengagement penalty (other than high MPs) AS LONG AS YOU'RE RETREATING BACK TO A HEX OCCUPIED BY ONE OF YOUR UNITS THAT IS NOT ADJACENT TO AN ENEMY UNIT ITSELF.
I use this often. Using a piece of an arty unit allows for recombination at the AVERAGE MP VALUE of all pieces. So split one into 2, run it out and back with both starting with 20 MPs and if it comes back with 10 left and recombines, the unit now has (20+10)/2=15MPs.
Second turn is played. However, I forgot yet again to take a screen before I pressed the End button. Gah! :mad:
Sadly, my limited counteroffensive South of Montecalvo has failed. However, I could bring my reinforcements without too much damage.
The bridge south of Pesaro has been destroyed.
The interdiction has been murderous yet again. I lost a 88 unit due to interdiction. Gone. Evaporated.
Second turn is played. However, I forgot yet again to take a screen before I pressed the End button. Gah! :mad:
Sadly, my limited counteroffensive South of Montecalvo has failed. However, I could bring my reinforcements without too much damage.
The bridge south of Pesaro has been destroyed.
The interdiction has been murderous yet again. I lost a 88 unit due to interdiction. Gone. Evaporated.
If you are playing with the latest patch it should generate a DO_NOT_SEND_END_OF_TURN file, that you could zip up and post here.
Alternately you could also open it up and take a screen-shot and post that here.
Thanks Veers! Here you go! :)
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1899/rraxisturn2io1.jpg
Here is the screen from turn 3. Axis turn.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9083/rraxisturn3bf7.jpg
Sadly, my units I had taken away from the routed units SE of San Angelo were surrounded an evaporated. :OHNO:
Pesaro still holds, however.
General Staff
21 Oct 07, 17:58
This doesn't look good or bode well for the future. Without breaking your infantry/armour units down you won't have enough to cover the front, where there's now a gaping hole from Montecchio to the sea. If he notices it, he'll use engineers to make a crossing over the river, which could leave all your units south of the river cut off and in a pretty desperate predicament.
Not breaking units down against this sort of arty hell just means that there are more fish to shoot in that one hex barrel.
I know I'm the bearer of bad news here, but if I were you I'd concede and ask if we could try again. Then read up on my first two+ turns versus Elmer for how to approach setting up a defense. You can even load the attached file and try to crack the defense as Allies- just click Play->Computer Player and select Germans and this will give you control over the Allied effort. Or flip-flop back and forth playing both sides to get an idea of what works and what doesn't. Trial and error really works with TOAW- a lot of error to find what works.
For myself in defense it's combined arms stacks of broken down units heavily dug in in good defensive terrain backed up by well-sited (range, escarpments, coverage) arty.
Well it seems easy, but last time I tried to move units divided in part they got evaporated by Interdiction. I've fought with a 65% interdiction rate. Even when moving under cloudy weather in Woods or Mountainous terrain I got smacked by Air units.
Anyway, I conceded defeat. Seems I am not up to PBEM yet.
General Staff
21 Oct 07, 18:39
Well it seems easy, but last time I tried to move units divided in part they got evaporated by Interdiction. I've fought with a 65% interdiction rate. Even when moving under cloudy weather in Woods or Mountainous terrain I got smacked by Air units.
Anyway, I conceded defeat. Seems I am not up to PBEM yet.The interdiction is indeed desperate. Turns 1 and 2 almost anything that moves gets hit- each and every hex. By turn 4 it's less and by 5 it's gone.
Regarding PBEM- sure you are up to it, and proved it. Murphstein I suspect has spent a lot lot lot more time on understanding the mechanics judging by his posts.
Please don't take my comments as in any way derogatory- anyone even venturing down the PBEM road is a winner IMO. My message really is start over since you have no hope in such an untenable position. That saves you time (and misery), since there's nothing worse than playing out a game you know is doomed to defeat.
If it helps, I'll give you a game. Off ladder. I think it's best for beginners to learn defense so if you like and agree I'll play Allies. This gives me some interest since I'm almost done with my game as Germans against Elmer anyway.
The interdiction is indeed desperate. Turns 1 and 2 almost anything that moves gets hit- each and every hex. By turn 4 it's less and by 5 it's gone.
Regarding PBEM- sure you are up to it, and proved it. Murphstein I suspect has spent a lot lot lot more time on understanding the mechanics judging by his posts.
Please don't take my comments as in any way derogatory- anyone even venturing down the PBEM road is a winner IMO. My message really is start over since you have no hope in such an untenable position. That saves you time (and misery), since there's nothing worse than playing out a game you know is doomed to defeat.
If it helps, I'll give you a game. Off ladder. I think it's best for beginners to learn defense so if you like and agree I'll play Allies. This gives me some interest since I'm almost done with my game as Germans against Elmer anyway.
Well, at least the interdiction goes down after a while. I was wondering if it'd never stop. :surprise:
I must admit that the fact that I panicked and played rashly on my first turn destroyed any chance to mount a decent defence afterwards. I should make myself a checklist of things to check at the beginning of each (objectives, weather, air report), plus make a decent plan before even moving a piece. And, before ending my turn, make myself another check list.
As for the new games, I gladly accept your offer. I will PM you my e-mail.
General Staff
23 Oct 07, 03:35
Well, at least the interdiction goes down after a while. I was wondering if it'd never stop. :surprise:
I must admit that the fact that I panicked and played rashly on my first turn destroyed any chance to mount a decent defence afterwards. I should make myself a checklist of things to check at the beginning of each (objectives, weather, air report), plus make a decent plan before even moving a piece. And, before ending my turn, make myself another check list.
As for the new games, I gladly accept your offer. I will PM you my e-mail.Got it. Won't be until next week unfortunately.
Checklists are OK but you've really got to learn how to play TOAW like a violin or piano. It is an 'art'. What works and what doesn't. Only time and significant effort work in understanding this, and I'm from a grognard background of AH's Anzio for example where odds calculations were critical.
Best advice? Load up my turn 1/2++ versus Elmer (both 2WiN and RtR) and dissect it- don't forget it's possible to have 2 TOAW sessions running simultaneously. Change/rerun anything I did if you wish. Ask me why I did this, moved this here or that there and you'll get an answer. May not be the answer you want (could even be don't know!) but that's why it's an art.
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