pH/pK stats

[Deltapooh]

Tonight while playtesting a scenario I ran into some serious problems. It took 8x M1A1 and 12x M3A2 nearly 20 minutes to destroy 9x T-72 and 1x MT-LB. More frightening, they used 208/320x M256 120mm rounds and 54/144x TOW missiles. This does not include 25mm, 7.62mm, and .50 cal ammo. Most of the rounds were fired along the flank and rear of the enemy vehicles

Earlier, while testing the triggers, those same T-72s destroyed 8x M3A2 and 4 M1A1 Abrams tanks with one salvo!

Is this a bug? I mean I know one shot, one kill might be unrealistic. However, these figures suggest the crews are either drunk or blind! I even brought them to a halt.

It seems to be a pH issue since pK stats are high for the weapons used.

Any thoughts?

[Pat Proctor]

First of all, cool avatar. Now I have to go out and find one :)

Second, if you can isolate/recreate the incident in a save game, I can go in and tell you, at least, what the pH was for the engagement. I may be able to give you a little insight, though.

If the target vehicles are dug in, they are around twice as hard to hit (because they are targets of, essentially, halve the size). If they are in defilade as well, they are yet more difficult to hit, for the same reason. If they are then, also, in hold fire, they are VERY hard to hit. This is because they are essentially "hunkered" down and not exposing themselves to select targets and fire. If they are SUPPRESSED and in Hold Fire, they are REALLY REALLY hard to hit because fire has caused them to "hit the deck", scrambling for even more cover (if suppressed and not in hold fire, they are actually easier to hit).

Range is also a factor. At maximum effective range, you have about a 50% chance of hitting a stationary, T-80-sized target, in the open, not in hold fire or defilade or dug in (the definition of maximum effective range). Things get easier to hit as you get closer.

[kbluck]

If the target vehicles are dug in...If they are in defilade as well...

Aren't units in holes automatically in defilade?


DP: The best way to figure out what is going on is to pay close attention to the "suppression" flash. When the suppression marker flashes, target was hit but not killed. No marker, target wasn't hit at all. You can figure out the "real" odds quite accurately by keeping tallies of a few runs of the situation: shots, hits, kills. Compare those to the "theoretical" odds that Pat can determine from the savegame, and you then know whether something fishy is going on, or if the game is working as designed.


--- Kevin

[Deltapooh]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll do more testing this weekend. The enemy armor were in hold fire and hunkered down in holes, which might account for the misses.

[CommC]

Were you using the original database? the pK values in the original database were completely fubar, as far as realism goes. They made for an interesting NTC training exercise, but bore no relationship to reality.

I, and others, have created our own pK sets to try to make ATF more realistic.

[Gun_go_Boom]

Were you using the original database? the pK values in the original database were completely fubar, as far as realism goes. They made for an interesting NTC training exercise, but bore no relationship to reality.

I, and others, have created our own pK sets to try to make ATF more realistic.

Old thread, I know, and perhaps by now that there is a new version of ATF out, but is there a way I can get those pK sets from you or someone else who has them? NTC is an asskicker, no doubt, but I'd prefer some more realistic settings than having the odds shifted, ever so slightly, in favor of the Krasnovians in an effort to increase the amount of training value that the NTC does provide.

[kbluck]

If you're interested, I produced an alternate database that extensively modified the original according to my own opinions on the subject. It seems to have become the de facto starting point for the follow-on titles in the ATF line.

kbDataModern database (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=816)
ATF stock scenarios using kbDataModern (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=800)

[KEYSTONE07950]

Does the most recent ATF patch contain the revised pH/pK stats?

[Pat Proctor]

Keystone...

No, it doesn't. We have decided to stick with the values we have for this title. They are based on the MILES II numbers used at NTC, which are, in turn, based on the universal simulation pK numbers published by TRADOC.

[kbluck]

They are based on the MILES II numbers used at NTC, which are, in turn, based on the universal simulation pK numbers published by TRADOC.

Although, as I explain in detail in the below linked threads, it is my opinion that you misinterpreted those numbers when creating database1. These threads show how I came up with my different numbers in kbDataModern.

Thread: SAWE/MILES II and pKs (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3541&highlight=MILES)

Thread: pK? (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3806&highlight=MILES)

Thread: The statistics of destruction (http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3030&highlight=MILES)

--- Kevin