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General Staff
23 Sep 07, 13:50
Just played a Turn 1 against Elmer on this. Shades of El Alamein. I'll post other ideas as I get further in but a few ideas:

1) Air Force- if he leaves you one, I'd hold it back as a threat and try for Allied ships if you ever see them with JU-87s and ME-109s riding Air Superiority. Probably a one way trip.

2) I'd defend as far forward as possible. Break all units except arty, HQs (not possible) into 3 pieces (leaving them whole is just providing a target rich environment for Allied arty and putting more fish in the barrel to shoot) and defend in depth- 2 parts up, one behind so broken units in the front line have somewhere to go and the unit behind is always digging a second line and can recover a little. See article on Balkans 12 or Tannenberg 14 for how this should work. In my game versus Elmer I put and dug units in all the urban hexes available between the Metauro and the Foglia (Fano, Pesaro, Saltara, Petriano, S. Angelo, Urbino) including Fossombrone which was oddly left vacant (though a human player probably won't leave).

3) Use combined arms stacks of broken down units- a few tanks, SPGs, AT Guns, Flak Guns (88s are great). See the GS versus Elmer AAR here for how that works.

4) Allied interdiction is hellish. I'd almost suggest waiting to move until the bombers head off turns 3-4, but you really can't afford to do that. I'd move armour units first after breaking them into 3 to take the edge off interdiction and tire the planes some. I find moving each piece 1 hex at a time and recombining if possible, then breaking down again and moving another hex works best, though I've nothing hard and fast to prove this. The recombination helps spread casualties more evenly when you break down again. Moving 914th Stug to positions in Fossombrone, Saltara and Petriano for example resulted in the loss of four SPGs and four half tracks, but looking at the inventory, only one of each was destroyed- the rest went to inventory for repair and redistribution. Move infantry next, starting with those going into positions against the enemy- if they get retreated you can set up an attack, cancel it, and have the unit in mobile status able to dig in (which it can't do if in retreated status). Next either HQs or Engineers- probably HQs. Lastly arty, starting with flak and prioritizing guns by value in defence. Guns can be set up to direct fire and then cancel to gain mobile status to recombine and then dig in in the same way you can do this for infantry. Turn 1 movement will hurt but this is best way to do and tire his air out some. The casualties IMO are worth the ground and buffer it gets you since this scenario is really all about time.

5) Use engineers to help infantry dig in, but avoid putting them in the front line where possible- they're too valuable improving your defenses. Break them down into 3 to help more units dig in.

6) Arty should be sited for maximum defensive coverage. HQ's for best supply benefits to most units.

7) Try to dig units in behind routed units so they've got somewhere to shelter when they're retreated or can move again.

8) Super rivers won't save you or shorten your line given Allied extensive major river fording ability. He can pretty much cross anywhere. I'd use your major fording ability to get units into 17,12 and 18,12. This widens the retreat corridor from Fano, Pesaro, Foglia and should allow you to defend these urban areas a little more comfortably for longer with a reduced risk of getting cut off.

9) Don't forget HQs can help in disengaging (as can arty). Worth reading up on disengagement.

10) There are really 4 avenues for Allies to advance up. Fano, Saltara, Petriano and Urbino and these axes are what you should withdraw up making best use of terrain. Back up as slow as possible fighting all the way- forget the Gothic Line in early turns, though you'll probably eventually wind up huddled inside it. On coast I'd just dig in at Fano and hills/cropland west then make my next line at 20,11 and super river hexes west, though it might be worth trying to convert some open ground here to 100% fortified if you can afford to spare engineering capacity (maybe even whole units for this task to get done pronto).

11) Targets of opportunity. I'd probably only hit stacks if orange/red and lots of infantry out in open with little cover (not much use versus armour). Use a broken down unit to make the ground attack (limited attack, minimize losses) with as much direct arty support as you can spare. Do early in turn so you can dig in after with less chance of your arty in mobile with early turn end and therefore no defensive fire from these on Allied turn.

12) Reinforcements just go where needed, though try to always keep formations together for support and supply (if next to HQ) effects.

13) Don't panic. Kesselring seemed to stay fairly cool and he did OK.

Good luck!

murphstein
23 Sep 07, 14:56
Just played a Turn 1 against Elmer on this. Shades of El Alamein. I'll post other ideas as I get further in but a few ideas:
...
4) Allied interdiction is hellish. ... Move infantry next, starting with those going into positions against the enemy- if they get retreated you can set up an attack, cancel it, and have the unit in mobile status able to dig in (which it can't do if in retreated status). ... Guns can be set up to direct fire and then cancel to gain mobile status to recombine and then dig in in the same way you can do this for infantry.
...


When playing TOAW by PBEM, are these behaviors generally accepted? We had similar game engine exploits in Tiller's ACW games, and as I recall, it was considered unchivalrous to take advantage of them. But those were simpler times... ;-)

JAMiAM
23 Sep 07, 16:19
When playing TOAW by PBEM, are these behaviors generally accepted? We had similar game engine exploits in Tiller's ACW games, and as I recall, it was considered unchivalrous to take advantage of them. But those were simpler times... ;-)

We made them so for TOAW III. See rule 8.2.9, where this behavior is spelled out explicitly.

a white rabbit
24 Sep 07, 04:56
..vs serious enemy interdiction..

..it was so in acow, i assume it still is..

..move 1 unit 1 hex, go to other side of map repaet, repeat, repeat till all moves done, dig in on last MP, or when under a cloud..

..you still get turn end attacks but at least yr in a hole, and it drives yr enemy wild on the replay.......

..

a white rabbit
24 Sep 07, 05:02
2) I'd defend as far forward as possible. Break all units except arty, HQs (not possible) into 3 pieces (leaving them whole is just providing a target rich environment for Allied arty and putting more fish in the barrel to shoot) and defend in depth- 2 parts up, one behind so broken units in the front line have somewhere to go and the unit behind is always digging a second line and can recover a little. See article on Balkans 12 or Tannenberg 14 for how this should work. In my game versus Elmer I put and dug units in all the urban hexes available between the Metauro and the Foglia (Fano, Pesaro, Saltara, Petriano, S. Angelo, Urbino) including Fossombrone which was oddly left vacant (though a human player probably won't leave).

3) Use combined arms stacks of broken down units- a few tanks, SPGs, AT Guns, Flak Guns (88s are great). See the GS versus Elmer AAR here for how that works.

Good luck!

..not forward, unless you want to lose quickly, anything in early artillery range will get turned to jam. Delay, delay, using any defensive terrain, in the hills don't defend on the road, make him come into the hills. Withdrawing gives time to dig in, so make him come to you and dig, dig, dig..

..arrange your forces on a 1/2/1 pattern, inf/inf+AT/inf but keep the 88's for the main defence, otherwise 3's fine

General Staff
24 Sep 07, 07:41
...vs serious enemy interdiction...

...move 1 unit 1 hex, go to other side of map repeat, repeat, repeat till all moves done, dig in on last MP, or when under a cloud..

...you still get turn end attacks but at least yr in a hole, and it drives yr enemy wild on the replay...Yes. Great advice if you've the stomach and time for all the planning. Putting weather on to see where clouds are is great as interdiction is not so good through them. In terms of prioritizing unit types for movement, you can also check inventory to see which types of equipment get/don't get replacements.

Reminds me of the 'Great Railroad Chase' in a game of Operation Bagration 1944- load up flak units broken down into 3s on rail carriages and train them around Eastern Europe from the Balkans to the Urals with the entire Luftwaffe and various Satellite Air Forces in hot- but not tireless- pursuit. Marvelous thrilling stuff! There are still some Heroes of the Soviet Union out there who've never traveled by train since, insisting that Aeroflot is by far the safer option.

General Staff
24 Sep 07, 07:54
..not forward, unless you want to lose quickly, anything in early artillery range will get turned to jam. Delay, delay, using any defensive terrain, in the hills don't defend on the road, make him come into the hills. Withdrawing gives time to dig in, so make him come to you and dig, dig, dig..

..arrange your forces on a 1/2/1 pattern, inf/inf+AT/inf but keep the 88's for the main defence, otherwise 3's fineI'd still argue that at 10 turns forget Gothic Line except usage as last resort and defend as far forward as possible.

The problem with lines (Gothic or Maginot) is that a lot of resource goes into building them but they really only require piercing at one point (or outflanking in which case they become totally redundant). So all that resource gets at most 5% usage if 3 hexes of 60 get taken say and the line is defunct.

There's also the psychological factor in that often these lines are viewed as somewhat impregnable and little effort is made defending in depth behind them- once shattered it becomes something of a foot race. That's why I've already got some units digging behind and around the Gothic Line in my Elmer game.

I'm not sure what 1/2/1 pattern is (would appreciate more info/example), but I do disagree on forward defense here. I have almost all forward in defense and feel this and defense in depth with units broken into 3s (somewhat negating Allied arty advantage) is the best way to 'win'. I am hoping to trade time for this buffer and casualties (given Allied loss sensitivity) for VPs. Let's see how the Elmer game pans out, though I've obvious advantages with 'Fog of War' off (though really IMO makes little difference here as Allies can shatter anything in their way if they need/want to).

Regarding terrain, I agree but I'd dig on roads in best terrain where possible. He must have roads to keep his supply up. At coast you have unfortunately to try to dig in the open to keep him from Fogia/Gothic Line too early here. If I get any armour and means to counterattack I'd probably do it here though early days yet.

a white rabbit
24 Sep 07, 08:44
I'd still argue that at 10 turns forget Gothic Line except usage as last resort and defend as far forward as possible.

The problem with lines (Gothic or Maginot) is that a lot of resource goes into building them but they really only require piercing at one point (or outflanking in which case they become totally redundant). So all that resource gets at most 5% usage if 3 hexes of 60 get taken say and the line is defunct.

There's also the psychological factor in that often these lines are viewed as somewhat impregnable and little effort is made defending in depth behind them- once shattered it becomes something of a foot race. That's why I've already got some units digging behind and around the Gothic Line in my Elmer game.

I'm not sure what 1/2/1 pattern is (would appreciate more info/example), but I do disagree on forward defense here. I have almost all forward in defense and feel this and defense in depth with units broken into 3s (somewhat negating Allied arty advantage) is the best way to 'win'. I am hoping to trade time for this buffer and casualties (given Allied loss sensitivity) for VPs. Let's see how the Elmer game pans out, though I've obvious advantages with 'Fog of War' off (though really IMO makes little difference here as Allies can shatter anything in their way if they need/want to).

Regarding terrain, I agree but I'd dig on roads in best terrain where possible. He must have roads to keep his supply up. At coast you have unfortunately to try to dig in the open to keep him from Fogia/Gothic Line too early here. If I get any armour and means to counterattack I'd probably do it here though early days yet.

..1/2/1 should read 1/space-space/2 space space/1..

..1 unit, in a road-side hex uses it's ZOC to slow movement over two road hexes, and requires an attack off the road into the hills, or just gets knocked back if ltd attack is used, and so can come back down later. On the road you just get pushed down the road.

..3 units spaced, ok 4 with the AT, covers more road and slows the enemy more, and gets more enemy going into uneeded rough so supply consuming hexes..

..on the coast it's similar but weaker as there's no real defensive terrain

murphstein
24 Sep 07, 08:49
Maybe a picture would help us noobs with this concept. I *think* I get what you're saying, white rabbit.

PS - what's off the coast of the Philippines at the location in your profile (6N125E)?

PPS - ooops, Google Maps gave me a different/better answer...well, at least one on land...

a white rabbit
24 Sep 07, 09:07
Maybe a picture would help us noobs with this concept. I *think* I get what you're saying, white rabbit.

PS - what's off the coast of the Philippines at the location in your profile (6N125E)?

PPS - ooops, Google Maps gave me a different/better answer...well, at least one on land...

..a place called Malita, you can't miss it, it's the town next to the river surrounded by coconut trees, if you look carefully you can see me waving...

General Staff
24 Sep 07, 19:36
I *think* I get what you're saying, white rabbit.Well I'm sorry and stupid but I don't. Plus I like pictures, as long as they're not lewd or- desperately hoping he spells correctly given GPS #s- lascivious.

murphstein
02 Oct 07, 15:33
The manual (9.1.5 Intelligence Gathering (Advanced Rules), pg 26) says...

I can tell from the status bar whether my forces have a hex in the enemy's rear areas spotted (can detect unit presence + unit ID), observed (can detect unit presence but not ID) or unknown (cannot detect unit presence).

Is there any way to tell if hexes in _my_ rear are spotted, observed or unknown to the enemy?

dpm

General Staff
02 Oct 07, 16:52
Not precisely that I'm aware of. Though if you know enemy Theatre Recon from playing Allies you can get an idea. Not to mention all that air interdiction- if they can light your cigarette for you as you place it between your gritted teeth as a P40/Spitfire/Typhoon/Mustang courtesy gesture you can be pretty sure they know who and where you are.

murphstein
02 Oct 07, 17:34
good <ducking> point

So no chance of sneaking the 26th Pzr up to the line of the Foglia SW of Tavullia, eh?

General Staff
02 Oct 07, 17:56
Not really. There's an argument to be made that scenarios with this much interdiction should have AM/PM turns, so the Germans can move without too much hindrance after dark as they historically did.

You've got good MP allowances on these units- just find a place where it's difficult for opposition to figure where they're going to go, as you would anyway as a commander but allowing you to get to where you mean business as cheaply MP-wise as possible.

Post an SAL- or let me know which one already up to look at- and I'll suggest placement.

JAMiAM
02 Oct 07, 18:30
Is there any way to tell if hexes in _my_ rear are spotted, observed or unknown to the enemy?

No.4567890

Veers
02 Oct 07, 21:13
No.4567890

I'm a trend setter. :D

(Sorry, stuck at work waitign for a ride. :laugh:)

murphstein
03 Oct 07, 02:35
No.4567890

OK, #4567891...can we get the ability to save both a PBL and a SAL at the end of a PBEM turn? please please please?

JAMiAM
03 Oct 07, 04:37
OK, #4567891...can we get the ability to save both a PBL and a SAL at the end of a PBEM turn? please please please?

It exists for games started with 3.1.0.9, and for games started with 3.2.29.27, but the beta 3.2.29.26 was messed up in this respect, and unfortunately, upgrading to .27 does not restore a backward capability with that feature.

Sorry about that...:OHNO:

General Staff
03 Oct 07, 07:51
So no chance of sneaking the 26th Pzr up to the line of the Foglia SW of Tavullia, eh?Looking at your turn 6, I'd probably have put much of it in, around or behind Montecchio. That gives you the option of a counterattack here or east on the coastal strip, plus good defence against what looks like a next turn Allied attack here anyway.

murphstein
03 Oct 07, 14:34
GS, check the Ricky vs Murphstein thread for details; I played turn 6b before I saw your response, but managed to place the 26th Pzr between Montecchio and our bridgehead over the Foglia at 16,12 or 16,13.

I think the tactical surprise I achieved here comes from Rick not knowing you can cross a super-river with engineers having major ferry caps. Having your enemy believe you cannot get someplace is probably even better than him not knowing you're heading there.

:bite::bite::bite:

General Staff
03 Oct 07, 15:11
Some confusion here. I can't see any turn beyond 6 start within the ZIP. I can't look at the Allied thread. Do you have a 6b save you could upload?

I'd agree on tactical surprise, but someone must have told him that all those boats and rubber bladders in 14,15 and 16,14 weren't really for smuggling Chianti across the Foglia in the face of deep regional vinicultural rivalries.

Other than that you've IMO a win here. And the makings of a seriously good player. That's because you plainly have taken much time to get to grips with the rules and certainly listen and learn. I'd imagine you're the '1 view' I see on the downloaded Elmer game I upload. So welcome and I hope the fairly steep learning curve was worth the time and trouble.

murphstein
03 Oct 07, 16:13
Sorry, turn-end surprised me in round 6 (Energizer Panzers, they just keep going and going). I just posted details from the sit-rep file into the game thread, and will upload a T7 start SAL as soon as Rick figures out what to do with those tanks and paras visiting his field kitchens south of the Foglia.

Hopefully, he won't yet have absorbed the tips I just emailed him for avoiding turn-burn. He's really frustrated with getting only 1 or 2 combat rounds in per turn, so I've been trying to share what I've learned here with him.