Murphstein v. Rickie (Road To Rimini) [Archive]

murphstein

13 Sep 07, 03:32

Just a couple of thoughts while I'm waiting for Rickie's first turn to arrive.

I've been played Elmer a couple of time, and noticed him doing things I can't explain.

1) Elmer doesn't pre-emptively destroy the LW on Turn 1 (which he's perfectly capable of doing). Any idea why not? Do they really just not matter?

2) Elmer doesn't even try to maintain formation cohesion. He's got Poles and Indians and Canadians and British and Nepalese stacked together all over the map. What is this costing Elmer? Put another way, if my opponent keeps his formations together for better support (or not), will it make any difference in this scenario? And how would one tell?

3) I really don't want to cycle thru the unit report for each Allied unit, so is there any way to tell if any of his units have air-drop or amphib capabilities?

4) Ditto for units with Major Ferry capabilities (other than engineers).

5) Is there a reason my arty cannot direct-fire on his naval unit when it's in range, and do not support the defenders that are being shelled during his half of the turn?

6) I've been using Flak units as tank-destroyers; would I be better off digging them in and hoping they do some damage to Allied interdiction air strikes?

Thanks,

dpm

JAMiAM

14 Sep 07, 11:51

5) Is there a reason my arty cannot direct-fire on his naval unit when it's in range, and do not support the defenders that are being shelled during his half of the turn?

I'll let others answer the rest of your questions, but this one is due to a game engine restriction. Regular artillery must be adjacent to an enemy naval unit to be able to fire at it. Only Coastal Artillery units (both icon types) can fire at range at naval units.

Telumar

14 Sep 07, 13:38

1) Elmer doesn't pre-emptively destroy the LW on Turn 1 (which he's perfectly capable of doing). Any idea why not? Do they really just not matter?

In this case they really just don't matter.

2) Elmer doesn't even try to maintain formation cohesion. He's got Poles and Indians and Canadians and British and Nepalese stacked together all over the map. What is this costing Elmer? Put another way, if my opponent keeps his formations together for better support (or not), will it make any difference in this scenario? And how would one tell?

Well, usually he does. I can imagine that in this scenario it will look like it's all mixed up due to unit density and space limitation together with objective track overlapping. But to give you a definite answer one would have to take a look on it in the editor.
What is this costing him? Depends on formation cooperation settings. In this scenario the units with the brown background can cooperate only very poorly with those on red.

3) I really don't want to cycle thru the unit report for each Allied unit, so is there any way to tell if any of his units have air-drop or amphib capabilities?

4) Ditto for units with Major Ferry capabilities (other than engineers).

Air drop and amphibious capabilities are dependent on the unit icon and nothing else.

Units with the bridging engineer symbol should have major ferry capability, but it is dependent on the unit's equipment/type of squads. So any unit could in theory have major ferry capability. Just trust the designer's common sense.. sometimes scenario designers add ferry bridging teams to divisional HQs. Sometimes the 'normal' engineer units have major ferry cap., too.

6) I've been using Flak units as tank-destroyers; would I be better off digging them in and hoping they do some damage to Allied interdiction air strikes?

Both deployments will serve your purpose.

In fact it doesn't play a role where you deploy your Flak if you want to damage some interdicting aircraft. You could well use them in an AT role and still inflict damage on enemy aircraft on interdiction mission (but only if the interdiction strike aims at the Flak unit itself i think - maybe someone other can tell more). Flak in AT role performs rather poor on the attack. You will have to let yourself be attacked to achieve better results, preferably in fortified deployment. But note that a lone Flak unit will most probably be subject to a RBC (retreat before combat) due to the high proportion of 'passive defender' equipment in those units. You should back them up with more 'active defender' equipment: Infantry, engineers. Actually it's vice versa then..you back up your infantry with some '88s against british armour.. :)
Another use of the Flak, now that AA fire works, is the classical role: Anti-Air!:bite: ...i.e. to protect your artillery from air strikes intended to push them out of their supporting deployment. You'll have to find a balance by yourself; and it's (as usually) very situation dependent.

Happy toawing! :toast: Feel free to ask any question you like - there are no silly questions, just stupid answers.:)

murphstein

19 Sep 07, 18:23

===================
Rick (1) vs Dan (2)
After-Action Report
===================

New Player Workshop
Road to Rimini, v1.5
TOAW III, R3.2.29.26
Start: Sep 12, 2007

==========
Assessment
==========

My strategy for the German 10th Armee is to trade lives for time.

If the Allies haven't gotten thru or around the Gothic Line by Turn 5,
even if the 1st FJD, 278th ID and 71th ID are pretty much chewed up in
the process, their attack bogs down and my fresh reinforcements (26th
Pzr Div, 168 Inf Div, 198 Inf Div, 5th Geb Div) can establish and hold
strong defensive lines south and north of the Conco River. These will
deny him the VP hexes around Rimini he must capture to gain a victory.

I need to stay balanced, prevent a catastrophic breakthrough, keep
some units for opportunistic counter-punching, and be careful not to
let an early turn-end catch me with units not dug in, exposing me to
an attack that breaks my line and gives him a battle of movement. I
cannot afford to have a significant chunk of a division annihilated,
so defense in depth is key to preventing an exploitable break-out.

The Allies have overwhelming air superiority so my reaction range is
going to be limited. I need to turn the battle into one of attrition
on a static and deeply defended front. My units will need to absorb
one attack after another, giving ground slowly if at all. Retreated
units have to be replaced and moved back to regroup and then return
to the fight.

My tactics will be to fight a delaying action between the Foglia and
Conca Rivers.

I have time in the first turns to block the roads and destroy all the
bridges to slow down and channel the Allied advance. Allied bridging
units will be a key target of opportunity and efforts will be made to
prevent an Allied crossing of the Folgia below Montecalvo. I plan to
use the super-river line to effectively shorten my line, which should
allow me to get more units at his points of attack to offset his high
unit densities.

Limited counter-attacks w/ arty support on his red over-stacked hexes
seem to run up the Allied loss penalties faster than they can take VP
locations and this scenario seems to encourage (require?) that he use
over-stacked hexes on our front lines.

I must be alert for late-game end-runs, especially around our right
flank in the mountains. Since the enemy lacks amphibious or air-drop
capabilities in this scenario, Rimini has to be reached overland and
while the short path is up the coast, the path of least resistance
may turn out to be thru San Marino.

murphstein

19 Sep 07, 18:26

========
Rick 01a
========

Rick's first move was, as expected, infantry attacks on 1st FJD and
71st ID units on the Metauro River at Saltara by the 1st and 2nd Can
Inf Bdes and the Brit 128th Inf Bde. In the 1st FJD sector, 1 btl is
routed (3/4th); in the 71st ID sector, 2 btls routed (1/211 and 2/211
Inf Btls), one of which fractured, and is unable to disengage.

=======
Dan 01b
=======

I see no value in defending the ground between the Metauro and the
Foglia Rivers, but doing so raises a considerable risk of the 1st FJD
and/or the 71st ID being cut off south of the Foglia and destroyed in
detail.

Our first line of defense will be behind Foglia River, and I will use
the super-river to free up resources to thicken my line elsewhere. I
moved the 1st FJD to put it's left flank on the sea south of the river
at Pesano (4th Rgt and PzJg Btl) with the rest of the division digging
in behind the river from Pesano to Montecchio, inclusive. The 71st ID
will defend the center of the, behind the Foglia, starting on the 1st
FJD right flank in Montecchio and extending through the "Foglia Ford"
hex (first non-super-river hex), with orders to hold that hex at all
costs. The 278th ID will defend behind the Folgia River from "Foglia
Ford" to the exclusion zone at the west end of the Gothic Line (both
exclusive). The 76th Panzer Corps PzJg, Tank, Pioneer and Flak units
will be the Corps reserve, and start being positioned behind the 71st
ID initially, until his schwerpunkt is revealed.

[Note: do I need to attach a map or a gamefile to these AARs? dpm]

Foggy

21 Sep 07, 08:37

General Staff

24 Sep 07, 08:47

Actually I'd love to see an SAV File to get an idea of what Allies have been discussing and plotting. Usually teams discuss and come up with an agreed common strategy which- aside from the odd maverick who decides that the best way forward on Operation Sealion 1940 for example is to follow in Bonnie Prince Charlie's footsteps in 1745 by dropping paras in the Highlands of Scotland and heading south- is usually fairly closely followed.

murphstein

24 Sep 07, 09:00

General Staff

24 Sep 07, 09:20

Explain how to create a SAV file (specific TOAW format or just a JPEG/GIF screen-shot?), and I'll post one tonight when I open his turn 2, assuming the replay isn't hosed up again; see further at:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70216Once you're past the replay and into your turn, go to File->Save As, select a file name and save- the system handles the extension (.SAV which is specific TOAW and if you've got extension linked to app it can open it automatically). You can then bundle it into a ZIP file and upload using Advanced->Manage Attachments here.

With an SAV we can see all the information exactly as you can- sitrep, replacements, losses etc...- as opposed to a GIF/image file where it's just a (hopefully) pretty picture.

If you look at my Elmer game you can see what I've done as an example. Download this to your TOAW 'Saves' directory and load using File->Resume Saved Game and you'll get an idea of what I mean.

murphstein

24 Sep 07, 18:00

Attached are SAL files for turn 2 start and end-of-moves (no combat initiated) for the German side.

Rick surprised me a bit by not attacking my main line anywhere; instead he maneuvered his units, with the Canadians going after the 3 btlns he routed in the turn 1 near Saltara. This turn, he surrounded and evaporated the 3/4th FJ Btln, attacked the 2/211th Btln and routed/retreated it again, and left the 1/211th fractured, mobile and hopelessly cut off behind his lines. He only had the one combat round, after which he moved his units some more and ended his turn without a 2nd combat round.

He is being much more aggressive about bringing up his arty behind his main units than Elmer was in the games I played solitaire, and seems to be keeping his national groups together more than Elmer did or than is required (as I now think I understand)...Brits, Canadians, Indians, Nepalese (all tan backgrounds) can cooperate with each other, but less well or not at all with the Poles (red background).

Having committed to putting my first line behind the Foglia before the Tips & Tricks thread suggested otherwise, I spent this turn splitting up my units, setting up combined-arms strong-points, dodging strafing runs, and trying to get some depth into the defense all along the line. I tried to create sector reserves (1 inf and 1 Flak or PzJg) behind the discussed axes of advance, to plug holes and contain break-throughs.

I'm pretty sure I got everyone dug in except for a couple of units that took interdiction hits, and maybe an arty unit that got dug out by the turn-end interdiction strikes. Those strikes don't look random to me...it hit my arty much more frequently when it moved, after passing on several chances to hit my moving, split-up infantry.

Used the split-move-recombine-split technique to spread out the effects of interdiction strikes, as recommended, and recovered a couple of "retreated" units into mobile status for subsequent dig-in, per rule 8.2.9 or whatever.

Since the 1/211th is already split up and cut off, I tried to maneuver them in different directions, hoping he'll either get sloppy about them and give me a shot at some of his rear area units, or will re-task some of his units to chase them down, surround them and eventually try to eliminate them. These and the 2/211th now hold 4 adjacent hexes, and have ZOCs into a couple more.

murphstein

26 Sep 07, 22:50

======
Turn 3
======

The Allies in their half of Turn 3:

- Poles took a hex south of Pesaro from the 1st FD
- Canadians evaporated 2 of the 6 trapped 211th sub-units
- British struck unsuccessfully toward Montecchio
- British/Nepalese took a hex from the 278th ID
- Detailed engineers to rear area bridge repairs

I'm again surprised by Rick's lack of aggressiveness on the front line.
He's being careful not to over-stack along the front and has his guns up
just a couple of hexes behind the front lines. He's not massing for a
forced super-river crossing anywhere I can see, and diverted a bunch of
his units from the Montecchio sector to chase down the remnants of the
isolated 211th near Saltara.

In the German half of Turn 3, we continued to dig in and got to fortified
status in the majority of our defensive positions, with the help of small
engineering units. I now have a rgt in reserve in each sector (994th in
the west, 171st and 914 StuG in the middle, 3rd Falls in the east), with
what I think is optimal artillery support. Comments from the vets would
be welcome on this point in particular.

I got 5 combat rounds in with a limited/minimize attack by one FJ sub-unit
against the yellow overstack of all infantry at the Montecchio bridge hex
(14,14), with 8 artillery units in direct support (also on minimize). We
inflicted a total of about 20% losses on the stack; the stack indicator is
now green, and all the units in the stack are orange or red. I then moved
the attacking unit back to rest and moved up and dug in a fresh one to take
the brunt of the attack I expect across the river next turn. Is it better
to take many little (minimize loss) bites, or fewer but bigger ones (limit
loss) with this direct artillery bombardment?

I ended the bombardment when I realized I was getting pulverized by the 25
or 30 air strikes the engine was throwing at me at the end of each round,
and that the number and severity of these strikes wasn't declining as the
rounds progressed. These dug out several units that had no MPs left after
digging in during the movement phase of my turn, and in several cases are
now in "retreated" deployment to boot with no way to recover them in time.

Cripes. How do you make *that* trade-off?

Start and end SAL files are attached.

General Staff

27 Sep 07, 06:45

Looking at your questions and dispositions:

1) I think a number of Allied players are maybe not watching the clock too well. It's only 10 turns. Having said that as Allies I'd throw engineers at 17,12 and use as a springboard to attack 17,11 to isolate and eventually take this part of the line and Pesaro for 10 VPs getting them well into the game. I'd watch for this.

2) Arty siting looks pretty good. I might have tried to cover 20,11 a bit more as this should get hit hard.

3) I only ever use Ignore Loss settings on defense, except for specific situations- HQs, arty, engineers which I want hot footing out if they get caught in any crossfire, since they're too valuable as specialists. Also routed/reorg/badly damaged units that plainly won't take much abuse. A lot of pointers are outlined in the Elmer 2WIN game and are really just as applicable here.

4) I put arty on ignore losses when in direct support, even if helping a LA/ML attack just in case it goes an extra round or two. Not sure if it supports for more than one round at ML (anyone know for sure?). But 20% losses on a red stack is what I'd call an impressive result and the casualty differential is real important in this game with the high Allied loss sensitivity.

5) Little or big bites. Unless I want a hex badly, I prefer little bites almost always. A bit like flying- small move, see result, correct, repeat dose if necessary. Plus it allows you to see results on your guys- nothing like bashing away with a major assault only to end up with a gaping hole in your line as your unit(s) evap.

Hope this helps. Again I'd urge folks to review the Elmer 2WIN game as it's complete and you see the whole show from start to finish- as opposed to the Elmer RtR game in progress.

murphstein

27 Sep 07, 08:59

Are any of the other games started? I'd love to see what the other German commanders are doing, and how it's working for them...

I see your point about 20,11; if I still own it next turn, I'll improve my arty coverage.

I also see your point about 17,11; as weak justification for my current positioning, my southern-most isolated 211th fragment spotted the Polish and Canadian engineers repairing the Metauro bridges, before it got hit and retreated to its current location. Which is weird, since his armor and arty is already over that river and moving forward; can he really be worrying about his supply lines?

And yes, your 2WIN AAR was *extremely* informative. Thank you very much for that effort.

Karri

27 Sep 07, 09:00

4) To my undrestanding arty will support as long as the combat goes on.

Foggy

27 Sep 07, 13:36

as long as every player knows - these tactics (divide x3) - will destroy you in say OST front scens

Telumar

27 Sep 07, 16:46

as long as every player knows - these tactics (divide x3) - will destroy you in say OST front scens

..where the soviets' basic combat units are usually one 'level' higher than the german ones..wanna split your Regts into three pieces? You'll have to face a division with a Battalion..:surprise:
(sorry Matt, but i thought the newbies needed to know why)

In short: Splitting up works best if both sides have the same basic unit size. Otherwise it's not recommended.

General Staff

27 Sep 07, 17:44

as long as every player knows - these tactics (divide x3) - will destroy you in say OST front scensYes, and so will the time it takes to play a turn- let alone an entire game- of some of them. Players have been known to pass out from exhaustion, withdraw with a serious case of combat fatigue or even totally shuffle off this mortal coil before they ever got to a turn in 1945 say.

But agreed, scale will dictate tactics. And especially as Telumar points out if scales are different per side. In some, it can work to break down Soviet units into 3 on the attack or for defense in depth, but not such a great idea to break your German 100 man remnant regiment into 3 battalions of 33 men each.

murphstein

27 Sep 07, 23:59

======
Turn 4
======

The Allies in their half of Turn 4 got two combat rounds and:

- Poles took the other hex S of Pesaro, retreating 1st FD defenders
- Poles attacked Pesaro, but were repulsed by 1st FD defenders
- British/Canadians attacked Montecchio, repulsed by 1st FD & 171st ID
- Indian/Nepalese attacked Montecalvo, repulsed by 278th ID
- 4 isolated remnants of 211th Inf Rgt trapped N of Saltara surrendered
- [edit] Polish inf units have now been spotted near Urbino (?!?!)

26th Pzr Div arrived at Rimini, moved forward to the Conco River secondary defensive line, and began to dig in on good defensive terrain across what I believe will be the main axis of Allied advance (eventually) toward the towns of Gemmano and Croce.

278th ID, 171st ID and 1st FD continue to dig in, rotate fresher units into forward positions, and launch 1 LA/ML attack per sector with direct arty support. The 1st FD inflicted 15% losses on a yellow mixed overstack of Poles attacking Pesaro; the 171st ID inflicted 25% losses on the yellow overstack of infantry on the bridge hex at Montecchio, who eventually retreated; the 278th ID took some pot-shots at the British inf trying to cross the Foglia above the super-river part, causing about 5% losses.

Sorry, forgot to grab SAL files for this turn. Nothing much has changed in this turn, except for the shrinking of the Pesaro bridgehead south of the Folgia to just the city hex, and the ejection of the Allies from the bridge hex at 14,14 opposite Montecchio. The Allies have taken only one hex N of the Foglia, SW of Montecalvo.

I caught myself looking for places to counter-attack if Rick continues to be so cautious about his advance. I think I found one, too... :bite::bite::bite:

murphstein

28 Sep 07, 08:53

In turn 4, I sent the LW against the Allied naval unit off Pesaro -- no damage to the Navy, 25% losses to the LW. This is typical of what I see using air against navy near Leningrad in Barbarossa, also. Didn't Billy Mitchell teach us different?

Also, I'm feeling pretty cocky at this point. Turn 5 is about to come and go with Rick still dithering around south of the Foglia, with 1 toe into the Gothic Line.

If you were him, what would you do to retrieve the situation for the Allies?

Shifting the Polish inf west makes me think he probed the FJs at Pesaro and found them tough customers and either wasn't seriously thinking of breaking thru at the coast, or has decided he's not going to have a hole to exploit in that area.

He's using his engineers to repair bridges in his rear so I can only conclude he wasn't planning a forced super-river crossing, although all that armor stuck in idle on the roads to S. Angelo maybe suggests otherwise? Do the Allied inf have enough ferry capabilities to cross armor w/o engineers? I don't think so.

This leaves the western path thru Montecalvo, and a crossing of the Foglia between Montecalvo and the super-river section, as his probable line of advance. I'd expect next turn to tell; there's a good chance he'll give up on the super river entirely (after taking Pesaro) and put all his power into a left hook at Montecalvo. Which is fine with me at this stage of the game... ;-)

murphstein

01 Oct 07, 00:43

The Allies in their half of Turn 5 got in 2 combat rounds and:

Round 1:
- Poles took Pesaro, retreating 1st FD defenders onto bridge
- Brit engr, Can arm & arm inf attacked Montecchio, repulsed
- Ind/Nep inf, Brit arm units attacked Montecalvo, repulsed

Round 2:
- Brit engr, Can armor, arm inf attacked Montecchio, repulsed
- Ind/Nep inf, Brit arm units attacked Montecalvo, repulsed
- Poles attacked Pesaro bridge, repulsed (3 FD units retreat)

End of Turn 5a: Allies 24 VPs, 0 LP; Axis 76 VPs, 2 LP; score is 50/100, Axis SV

In the German half of Turn 5:

Enemy interdiction is at 38% (ouch).

Reinforcements arrive (76th Korps 998 Art, 242 StuG, 508 HvPz) at Rimini.

My priorities for this turn are:
- blow the Foglia bridge at Pesaro
- provide AA cover for arty units
- continue digging in everywhere
- relieve orange/red line units
- build 2nd line on Conco River
- bombard 1 overstack per sector

Did all that, and forced the Canadians off the Montecchio bridge hex with an LA/ML attack with direct arty support. I'm hoping the Poles try to cross the Folgia near Pesaro; the 508 HvPz units are dug in with the Falls now.

Is it foolish to be considering a counter-attack to try to get into the Allied rear areas thru one of the sectors where they're thinly manned and not prepared to defend against an attack?

See, for instance, the lower Foglia in the attached SAL files from German turn 5 start and end. [edit: 2 zip archives attached -- start and end]

murphstein

01 Oct 07, 11:29

Darn...noobie mistakes...

I ended my turn without digging in the arty I used in direct support of my LA/ML attacks.

I forgot to move up one arriving reinforcement (998th Arty) sitting up at Rimini. The split, move, recombine method worked well with the StuG and HvPz units, though.

General Staff

01 Oct 07, 12:38

Yes, forgetting reinforcements and to dig arty in. The latter I fairly religiously check for, the former I still forget. I find the best way in a relatively small scenario with minimal #s of units is to cycle through formations looking for units that still have MPs left and aren't fortified, then check why that's the case. This catches both above cases, though it can miss arty with 0 MPs left that need to be TR to support, but then just check any units in mobile status.

Here looking at end turn I'd be tempted to assault 19,12 with a small armour unit and arty in DS. Recce units are also great for this type of probing since they get good round 1 recce rating advantages in combat. Then see what's behind this stack and adjust. Optimal goal is to retake or isolate Pesaro- at worst it should have them scrambling to recover for another turn (10% of scenario), at best you could do it. I'd also combine with an armour/infantry assault against 16,14 (maybe use attack planner if you don't want an automatic overrun). Then you can use as a springboard for small attacks with DS arty against red stacks adjacent.

Combined, both attacks might cause consternation, chaos and casualties.

Hope this helps.

General Staff

01 Oct 07, 13:02

Veers

01 Oct 07, 15:41

One other item. Given it's now Allied turn 6 I'd throw everything into holding the Gothic Line, so forget defending too much further back. Backstop should be Croce, Gemmano, Morciano di Romagna, Tavullia, Cattlica, Gabicce Mare.

That doesn't mean overstacking- combined arms with units from different colours to get maximum arty support and judicious counterattacks when needed. Look to widen the casualty differential to compensate for VP location loss.

Isn't there a potential problem inherant in defending with different coloured units? Don't they have to pass some sort of cooperation check to defend together, with the failed resutl being a retreat?

^
|_ See, this is why I'm organizing, but not assisting. I just am not as good as some of these awesome veterans! Good job, GS.

General Staff

01 Oct 07, 16:10

1) Isn't there a potential problem inherent in defending with different coloured units? Don't they have to pass some sort of cooperation check to defend together, with the failed result being a retreat?

2) See, this is why I'm organizing, but not assisting. I just am not as good as some of these awesome veterans!To point 2: if you weren't that good how come it's me scanning the manual in answer to your question, let alone assisting instead of lying back organizing ;-).

To the Q: all the reinforcements coming in are free support so will help out. So 26 Pz arty units for example will support FJ units and both arty will support the same hex if units of both there are attacked, though FJ arty support for 26 Pz by itself is a little iffy.

I've nothing scientific/empirical but do find this helpful in defense.

Veers

01 Oct 07, 21:23

To point 2: if you weren't that good how come it's me scanning the manual in answer to your question, let alone assisting instead of lying back organizing ;-).
I just happened to get a good one in there.
:D

To the Q: all the reinforcements coming in are free support so will help out. So 26 Pz arty units for example will support FJ units and both arty will support the same hex if units of both there are attacked, though FJ arty support for 26 Pz by itself is a little iffy.

I've nothing scientific/empirical but do find this helpful in defense.
18.9.2, p.65 (TOAW Bible/Manual)
18.9.2 Support Levels
This is a critical game feature, so information available elsewhere
in this manual bears repeating here. You can set a Formation
Support Level to Internal Support, Army Support, Force Support,
or Free Support. The degree of cooperation is based on the best
possible Cooperation Level between two units.
Internal Support
Units belonging to Formations with Internal Support levels will
only cooperate fully with other units of the same Formation.
Limited cooperation is possible with units belonging to other
Formations, as long as those units use exactly the same 2D icon
color scheme. No cooperation is possible with other units.
Army Support
In this context the term “Army” means units with identical 2D
icon colors. Units belonging to Formations with Army Support
levels will cooperate fully with other units of the same Formation,
as well as those using an identical 2D icon color scheme
and belonging to other Formations. Limited cooperation is possible
with units of other Formations using the same 2D icon
background color and a different foreground (symbol) color. No
cooperation is possible with other units.
Force Support
In this context the term “Force” means units with similar 2D icon
background colors. Units belonging to Formations with Army
Support levels will cooperate fully with other units of the same
Formation, as well as those using the same 2D icon background
color and belonging to other Formations. Limited cooperation is
possible all other units.
Free Support
Units belonging to Formations with Free Support cooperate
fully with all friendly units. This should generally be used only for
very high-level Formations.
So, everything on the German side (except for the Turks), is on either free or force support. Free support means they will support any other unit, regardless of colour mix.
Force support means they will freely support anything with the same Background colour. So all the Germans in this scenario will freely support each other.

p.66 (TOAW Bible/Manual) (Bold added)
The penalty for using Non-Cooperative or Limited Cooperative
units varies. The strongest effect is in combat. Non-Cooperative
units are more likely to pull out of Attacks early, and increase the
chance that combats will take longer to resolve. The same is true
to a lesser extent for units with Limited Cooperation

So, all the Germans will support each other just fine in this scenario, and there is no need to worry about having different colour combinations in single hexes. However, in different scenarios you'll have to worry more about having different coloured units in the same hex.

murphstein

03 Oct 07, 02:27

The Allies in their half of Turn 6 got just 1 combat round:

- Poles inf moved to back up the lonely AT unit at 17,13 (darn)
- Can inf moved up to 14,14 opposite Montecchio, but did not attack
- Ind cav took 6,16 west of Montecalvo; mortar & engr in front line
- Brit units attacked 10,15 (Foglia Ford), repulsed (2 inf retreat)

End of 6a: Allies 25 VPs, 0 LP; Axis 75 VPs, 1 LP; score is 49/100, Axis SV

In the German half of Turn 6:

Per the air briefing, enemy interdiction is down to 22% (38% last turn).

No new reinforcements arrived. My plans for this turn are:

- continue digging everyone in everywhere
- rotate out damaged units from front lines
- arty attacks on 1 over-stack per sector
- move 26th Pzr SW of Tavullia for exploit
- attack the Pole/Brit seam across Foglia

Did all that:

- rotated out damaged units in 278th and 171st ID sectors
- damaged the attackers around Montecalvo with arty fire
- drove the Canadians off the Montecchio bridge hex (again)
- threw some pioneers, flak, Falls and Panzers over the river
- retreated Polish inf & AT, 2 Brit arty and Canadian engineer
- got most of the 26th Pzr in position to exploit next turn
- went from 40% to 0% left and couldn't dig in attackers

No SAL file for turn end, no clue what the loss penalties are now.

Start of turn SAL attached.

murphstein

03 Oct 07, 15:05

In lieu of a SAL, here's some details extracted from the sit-rep. I may have the 508 HvPzr sub-units mis-numbered, but there were definitely 3 of them involved, along with recombined btlns 2/1st Falls, 1st Falls & 76th PK Flak, 1st Falls & 76th PK Pioneers.

All combats LA/ML w/ arty support (usually direct) unless it says the attack was an assault (not LA); the loss percentages are given in parentheses. I assume that, since I'm attacking big stacks with a company-sized unit, my loss % translates into a small number of men/eqpt actually lost, compared to the damage inflicted?

Round 1:
- Falls 2/1/1st at 14,13 on 14,14 [3 healthy Can inf] (them 9%, us 2%)
- Fus 2/278th at 8,15 on 8,16 [7 units of 4th Indian ID] (them 4%, us 10%)
- 90% left

Round 2:
- Falls 2/1/1st at 14,13 on 14,14 (them 7%, us 2%)
- Fus 2/278th at 8,15 on 8,16 (them 3%, us 3%)
- 80% left

Round 3:
- Falls 2/1/1st at 14,13 on 14,14 (them 4%, us 3%)
- Fus 2/278th at 8,15 on 8,16 (them 4%, us 15%)
- 70% left

Round 4:
- Falls 2/1/1st at 14,13 on 14,14 (them 4%, us 3%) [3 Can inf btlns retreat]
- Fus 2/278th at 8,15 on 8,16 (them 2%, us 9%)
- Falls 2/1st, Pzr 1/508 at 16,12 on 17,13 [Pol AT] (them 3%, us 6%)
- 60% left

Round 5:
- Pzr 2/508 at 16,13 on 16,14 [2 arty, 1 engr] (them 8%, us 7%) [2 mortar btlns retreat]
- Pzr 1/508, Falls 2/1st at 16,12 ML assault on 17,13 (them 7%, us 0%) [Pol AT splits & retreats, Falls advances into hex)
- Fus 2/278th at 8,15 on 8,16 (them 1%, us 12%)
- 40% left

Round 6:
- Pzr 2/508 at 16,13 on 16,14 [Can engr] (them 8%, us 7%) [Can engr retreats]
- Falls 2/1st at 17,13 ML assault on 18,13 [2 Pol Inf] (them 7%, us 0%) [Pol inf retreats, Falls btln advances into hex)
- Pzr 3/508 at 16,13 ML assault on 17,14 [2 Pol inf, AT] (them 19%, us 10%) [Pol inf & AT retreat, Pzr advances into hex)
- Fus 2/278th at 8,15 on 8,16 (them 3%, us 14%) [Ind AT, AA, inf, engr all retreat, armor remains]
- Pzr attack burned 3 rounds, turn ends w/o chance to dig in

The 26th Pzr is concentrated in the area between Montecchio and Tavullia, just north of (or in one case, on) the Folgia super-river, ready to exploit the bridgehead across the Foglia if not sealed, or repel a counter-counter-attack in the area of Montecchio.

My objective for the rest of the game is to cut off and destroy the Poles along the coast and recapture Pesaro, while holding the Brits and Canadians to my west and threatening to get some 26 Pzr motorized units into their rear. This should relieve some of the pressure on the western end of my line, and improve the German victory level by reclaiming 40% of Allied-held VPs *and* inflicting significant losses on the Allies.

Apropos of Veers' comments, I'm trying to "split the seam" between the Brits/Canadians (tan) and Poles (red), to force Rick to create a defensive line S of the Foglia out of a mix of units from these two non-cooperating formations, backed by a mixed bag of arty. His lack of progress against Montecchio and Montecalvo to date, I think, gives me reason to think he won't mount a crushing counter-attack against my still-weak bridgehead in his Turn 7. Stay tuned; film at 11.

General Staff

03 Oct 07, 15:16

I assume that, since I'm attacking big stacks with a company-sized unit, my loss % translates into a small number of men/eqpt actually lost, compared to the damage inflicted?Yes, that's exactly right. Your 20% loss versus his 10% loss could be 2 squads lost of 10 versus his 10 lost of 100.

murphstein

03 Oct 07, 15:51

How does Rick get his infantry into 14,14 without an engineering unit? The bridge is destroyed and the hex says its a super-river, and I haven't seen him moving engineers in and out during his turns...

And are further Axis reinforcements dependent on some kind of events? The "expected reinforcements" dialog shows I'm not due for any more help. Do the Turks, the 5th Mtn and the other ID (198th?) only show up if the Allies take a certain number of VPs or hexes in the GL?

Thanks,

dpm

murphstein

03 Oct 07, 15:52

I also have to say, Veers and Chris, that you guys have made this workshop an extremely enjoyable learning experience.

JAMiAM

03 Oct 07, 16:04

How does Rick get his infantry into 14,14 without an engineering unit? The bridge is destroyed and the hex says its a super-river, and I haven't seen him moving engineers in and out during his turns...

Any unit with any amount of engineering equipment can enter a Major River hex with a blown bridge. This is so that it can potentially effect the repair of the bridge. If the units have any engineer squads in them, they will be able to get onto and across the hex.

And are further Axis reinforcements dependent on some kind of events? The "expected reinforcements" dialog shows I'm not due for any more help. Do the Turks, the 5th Mtn and the other ID (198th?) only show up if the Allies take a certain number of VPs or hexes in the GL?

I don't know the scenario, but it is possible that they are released by event, so they wouldn't show up in the expected reinforcements dialog.

murphstein

03 Oct 07, 16:18

Oh, man, I'm gonna regret asking this...

Can I figure out what events trigger reinforcements by opening the scenario in the editor?

25 years of SW development experience tells me I just walked out onto a slippery slope.

JAMiAM

03 Oct 07, 16:37

murphstein

05 Oct 07, 14:38

The Allies in their half of Turn 7 apparently got just 1 combat round:

- Poles push Falls AT unit off Pesaro bridge hex and advance into hex
- Can armor attacks east against bridgehead (1 HvPzr routed, retreats)
- Can inf re-enters bridge hex at 14,14 and attacks Montecchio, repulsed
- Ind armor attacks 7,16 west of Montecalvo, succeeds (inf & PzJg retreat)
- Brit orange stack attacked 10,15 repulsed (Fusiliers split, retreated)

End of 7a: Allies 26 VPs, 1 LP; Axis 74 VPs, 8 LP; score is 41/100, Axis SV

Per the air briefing, enemy interdiction is at 24% (22% last turn).

In the German half of Turn 7:

New reinforcements (98th ID, 168 Turkish ID, 76PK NWF) arrived.

My plans for this turn are:

- continue digging in 278th and 71st IDs for defense depth
- rotate out damaged units in front lines and replace
- arty attacks on 1 over-stack in 278th, 71st ID sectors
- reinforce bridgehead and start isolating Poles in Pesaro
- Move up the 98th ID behind 26th Pzr, Turks to Gemmano:w

All combats LA/ML w/ direct & indirect arty unless noted:

Round 1:
- 2/914th StuG vs Brit orange overstack in 11,16 (them 1%, us 100%)
- 1/171st PzJg vs Can inf stack at 14,14 (them 7%, us 7%)
- 4 adjacent units vs Brit arm at 6,17 (them 0%, us 5%)
- 5 adjacent units vs Brit arm at 17,14 (them 0%, us 6%)
- 90% of turn left

Round 2:
- 1/171st PzJg vs Can inf at 14,14 (them 4%, us 0%, they split & retreat)
- 5 adjacent units vs Brit arm at 17,14 (them 1%, us 6%)
- 80% of turn left

Round 3:
- 4 adjacent units vs Brit arm at 17,14 (them ?%, us ?%)
- 70% of turn left

Round 4:
- 3 adjacent units vs Brit arm at 17,14 (them 0%, us 8%)
- 60% of turn left

Round 5:
- FJ Flak, 2 FJ btlns, Engrs, StuG bde assault/ML Brit arm at 17,14 (them 1%, us 12%)
- 50% of turn left (All 4 Ju87s go out in a blaze of glory)

Round 6:
- Flak, FJ btlns, Engrs, StuG, Pzr assault/LL Brit arm at 17,14 (them 2%, us 7%)
- 20% of turn left

Round 6:
- Flak, FJ btlns, StuG, assault/IL Brit arm at 17,14 (them 2%, us 14%)
- end of turn

Again, using beta patch, so no end-of-turn SAL. Start of turn SAL and post-movement pre-combat SAL attached. Positions largely unchanged at end of turn; most units dug in and ready to defend what we hold.

murphstein

05 Oct 07, 14:50

Veers

05 Oct 07, 18:08

I also have to say, Veers and Chris, that you guys have made this workshop an extremely enjoyable learning experience.

Danke. Mostly, Chris, though, I am sure. :D

General Staff

06 Oct 07, 09:09

OK, stoopid move, using a red-health StuG w/o inf support for LA/ML attack.

I threw flak (I know, better on D, but still worth something on A), engrs, paras, armor, inf, arty and air at those Can tanks in 17,14; I'd have expected better results than what I got. I can see terrain (his and mine) figuring into this, but I thought I had assembled the force necessary to push him off that hex, which I need to break the 26th Pzr free to go after the Poles.

All I can figure is that Flak is pretty useless on A, FJs are too lightly armed, and I didn't use my 26 Pzr inf and armor wisely at the end. How would one of you have done this?17,14: I wouldn't have bothered. You've no flank advantage, it's not a red stack and the thing is a healthy glowing radioactive green- maybe those depleted uranium rounds those M4/75s are firing. That's also 70 tanks on high ground- I wouldn't want to cavort my 88mm gun across the river and into the bullrushes. I doubt the FJ infantry would be enthralled at the prospect of taking these beasts on either.

Arty doesn't help- try this in a hotseat Arracourt 44 where you can view results, but arty versus armour from the stats (most arty AT ratings are 0). Likewise air- though Stukas, if you've got more than 1, can sometimes help.

Flak is generally useless on A versus armour, best on D. Unless you're using it to hit an infantry stack (red?) with DA support, in which case it's quite useful.

There's a tendency among armchair generals- myself included- to look for places to launch that last glorious charge. See http://www.nationalcenter.org/ChargeoftheLightBrigade.html . Resist the urge, because it's not war it's really just insanity, and of those 600 I doubt 1 of the dead would wish to repeat the dosage.

Foggy

06 Oct 07, 09:42

17,14: I wouldn't have bothered. You've no flank advantage, it's not a red stack and the thing is a healthy glowing radioactive green- maybe those depleted uranium rounds those M4/75s are firing. That's also 70 tanks on high ground- I wouldn't want to cavort my 88mm gun across the river and into the bullrushes. I doubt the FJ infantry would be enthralled at the prospect of taking these beasts on either.

Arty doesn't help- try this in a hotseat Arracourt 44 where you can view results, but arty versus armour from the stats (most arty AT ratings are 0). Likewise air- though Stukas, if you've got more than 1, can sometimes help.

Flak is generally useless on A versus armour, best on D. Unless you're using it to hit an infantry stack (red?) with DA support, in which case it's quite useful.

There's a tendency among armchair generals- myself included- to look for places to launch that last glorious charge. See http://www.nationalcenter.org/ChargeoftheLightBrigade.html . Resist the urge, because it's not war it's really just insanity, and of those 600 I doubt 1 of the dead would wish to repeat the dosage.

The last is a great thought - but even a minor counterattack at the end of a scenario - can cause an opponent to hesitate;) I would never use flak in a attack - just far too efficient as a defensive tool!

murphstein

08 Oct 07, 13:45

Rick upgraded to the final patch version before Turn 7, so I upgraded before I opened Turn 8. I also got some kind of notice about my opponent possibly having reloaded (?) the game 1 time...wie gehts?

The Allies in their half of Turn 8 got 2 combat rounds:

Round 1:
- Poles attack FJ at 17,11 from Pesaro bridge hex; repulsed
- Brits attack 278th ID at Montecalvo; repulsed (PzJg retreated)

Round 2:
- Brits & Can inf, engrs move into 14,14 (Montecchio bridge) again
- Replay has long string of events reporting non-visible unit movement
- Can engrs, Can inf, Can & Brit armor enter super-river hex at 12,14
- Can/Brit stack at 12,14 attacks Mondiano; repulsed (inf retreats)
- Brits, Poles attack 26 Pzr units in 18,13; repulsed (pzr retreats)
- Brits attack FJ at 17,11 from Pesaro bridge hex; repulsed
- Brits attack Montecalvo; succeed (inf, StuG retreat)

End of 8a: Allies 28 VPs, 7 LP; Axis 72 VPs, 16 LP; score is 35/100, Axis MV

Per the air briefing, enemy interdiction is at 23% (24% last turn).

Allies concentrations:
- red overstack at Montecchio bridge hex, orange/red health, maybe dug in
- orange overstack at Pesaro bridge hex, green/yellow health, not dug in
- orange overstack opposite Mondiano, yellow/orange health, not dug in
- orange overstack at 11,16, yellow/orange health, may be dug in
- yellow overstack (Can inf, arm) at 17,14, green/orange health, dug in

New reinforcements (5th Geb Div) arrived.

A start-of-turn SAL is attached. A what-next post will follow shortly.

murphstein

08 Oct 07, 13:51

Foggy

08 Oct 07, 15:46

Lots of options - do you have a screenshot? This does look quite interesting -
how's the health of those reserve units?

General Staff

08 Oct 07, 17:17

OK, veterans, what next?

Rick's go-slow, minimize-casualties approach has been much more successful (judging from the score) than Elmer's aggressive frontal assaults. I'm down to a marginal victory, largely due to his low losses.

I've got the capability in place to cross the Foglia loop and attack the Poles without driving off the Can arm/inf stack at 17,14; is it wise to do so?

I'm now feeling like I need the Pesaro VPs back, and that I also need to inflict serious damage on those Poles to run up his loss penalties. The Poles sitting on the Pesaro bridge, at least, seem ripe for a series of LA/ML+arty attacks, to inflict losses and maybe drive them back into Pesaro itself.

I plan drive off the stack on Montecchio bridge again, and in the process up his losses, with LA/ML+arty attacks. They're overstacked and in poor health.

I have quite a bit of depth behind Mondiano, including the Turkish ID, and plan to reinforce, hit him with some LA/ML+arty attacks, and then let him continue to attack from the river into strong defensive positions in good terrain.

Likewise, I have enough depth in the 278th ID around Montecalvo to hold him one more turn, until I can send the 5th Geb up there to back up the west end of my line.

This leaves me with the 26th Pzr Div, the 98th ID and 1st FJ Div available for orders on the east end of my line. Would you attack to retake Pesaro, fall back across the river and defend, or choose a third course, at this point of the game?I think the casualty differential is down to stacking levels. It's IMO easier and less casualty-intensive to retake a hex with heavy DA support than it is to defend one by packing herrings in the barrel. Which is why IMO it's better to break units down as the Germans historically did at this scale. Against arty it's very much a % game.

Here Pesaro is too unknown- if you had better intel I'd maybe go for it but that's a function of scenario and you don't have that knowledge. All the hexes near are unknown and I thought of running the FJ engineers over 17/18,12 but it's likely to be a death trap. I suspect heavily defended.

I'd hit 14,14 as many times as I could with LA/ML plus move the mountain men into position to try to retake that part of the line that's lost.

To be hard on you- and that's the only way to learn- leaving units not broken down like 17/18,13 under the kind of staggeringly intense arty bombardments the CW were adept at is like asking your men to dance in Dante's Inferno. CW arty and air here are really the worst I've ever seen.

But even an MV against this is good. Please don't be discouraged- post your turn again and let's see whether we can up victory level.

murphstein

08 Oct 07, 18:41

Foggy,

There's a start-of-turn SAL attached to the post ("Turn 8 Start") just before the one you replied to. Any comments or suggestions would be welcome.

GS,

I have my 26th Pzr, 1st FJ and 98th ID units recombined only to mass for the attack on the Poles; I have zero hope of making offensive progress attacking multiple battalions with companies, right?

And yes, the situation at Pesaro is now unknown. My spotter at San Marino is under cloud cover, which seems to have cut my visibility into Rick's rear areas. With all the non-visible movement he did (see Turn 8 Start), he could have substantial forces anywhere they weren't at the end of Turn 7.

So, what I'm getting here is that I should do the following:

- in the east, withdraw the 26th Pzr and 1st FJ units back across the Foglia, break up these units and dig them in to hold the left end of my line in depth; I'm still going to try to pop those Poles on the Pesaro bridge hex, however.

- in the center, break down the Turkish units and start feeding them into the line between Montecalvo and Montecchio, through the 71st ID, to keep the waders from getting a toe-hold across the river; will force cooperation be an issue between Turks and Germans? I'm still going to pop the Canucks on the Montecchio bridge hex, and take a few pot shots at the other stack stuck on the super-river.

- in the west, break up the 98th ID on the coast and move them to the area around Gemmano, where they will align on the left of the 5th Geb Div arriving from Rimini. In Turn 9, these two divisions will move through the 278th ID and start attacking the Allies who've gotten into the GL at Montecalvo.

Turn 10 may then give us the opportunity to regain some VP locations along the GL.

The interdiction in this scenario has been a nightmare.

I'm going to be busy tonight anyway, so I'll probably not play Turn 8b until Tuesday morning (PDT).

murphstein

10 Oct 07, 14:53

In the German half of Turn 8:

My plans for this turn are:
- Move the 98th ID around to the right (western) flank near Gemmano, backing up the 278th ID and aligned with the arriving 5th GD.
- Move the 162nd Turkish ID thru the 71st ID to take up defense of the river line between Montecchio and Montecalvo
- Withdraw the 26th Pzr and 1st FJ from south of the Foglia, after a couple of limited attacks to test the strength of the Polish defenses.
- Use LA/ML attacks on the 3 Allied stacks on the Foglia, at Pesaro bridge, Montecchio bridge, and south of Mondiano.
- Continue to rotate in fresh units and dig in the 278th ID and 71st ID defenders in the center and west.

Round 1:
- ML/LA by 1/508HvPz vs Can arm/inf stack at 17,14 (them 4%, us 6%)
- ML/LA by 1/9 PG vs inf/art stack at 18,14 (them 5%, us 6%)
- ML/LA by PzJg vs inf/eng/arm stack at 12,14 (them 4%, us 11%)
- ML/LA by FJ company vs red overstack at 14, 14 (them 7%, us 11%)
- ML/LA by FJ company vs Poles at Pesaro bridge (them 5%, us 5%)

Round 2:
- 1/9th PG vs inf/art stack at 18,14 (them 4%, us 0%)
- PzJg company vs overstack at 12, 14 (them 4%, us 0%)
- (burned 4 rounds, but Allied engrs and inf retreated)
- FJ company vs Poles on Pesaro bridge (them 2%, us 2%)
- FJ company vs overstack on Montecchio bridge (them 10%, us 6%)
- 50% remaining

Round 3:
- 508HvPz vs stack at 17,14 (them 3%, us 10%)
- 1/9th PG vs stack at 18,14 (them 3% us 11%)
- FJ company vs stack at 14,14 (them 15%, us 3%)
- FJ company vs Poles on Pesaro bridge (them 2%, us 5%)
- 40% remaining

Round 4:
- 1/9th PG vs stack at 19,13 (them 0%, us 5%)
- FJ company vs Poles on Pesaro bridge (them 4%, us 3%)
- FJ company vs Brits on Montecchio bridge (them 10%, us 3%)
- 30% remaining

Last round attack (26th Pzr units vs 19,13) didn't happen.

End-of-turn SAL attached.

General Staff

10 Oct 07, 15:21

Sorry I didn't get back earlier on this, but no email notice of a reply to thread.

I'd forget the east coast as a way to win points. Hit things like 14,14 with LA/ML and DA (only yellow but not dug in and lots of soft targets). For actual VP points I'd look to try to regain Gothic Line positions lost west. I usually play as though it's going the distance for historical accuracy when I can.

Take the MV. I've suggested this shouldn't be a game for the ladder since it's for new players, but would modify that to suggest fair enough but only if you get a mirror game. That way you share the MV or Draw (?) and get to climb the ladder from rung 1 as the other side.

Check the Victory Point Calculator too for difference between MV and SV (and Draw).

murphstein

11 Oct 07, 15:05

The Allies in their half of Turn 9 got 1 combat round:

Round 1:
- attack at 17,13 repulsed (FJ co retreats, Hussars evap)
- attack at 14,13 repulsed
- attack at 10,15 repulsed (inf co retreats)
- attack at 17,11 repulsed
- attack at 8,15 repulsed (PzJg co retreats)

End of 9a: Allies 28 VPs, 20 LP; Axis 72 VPs, 17 LP; score is 47/100, Axis SV

Per the air briefing, enemy theater interdiction is at 22% (23% last turn).

Allies vulnerabilities:
- red overstack at 14,14 (Montecchio bridge), many orange/red health, deployment unknown, no entrenchment
- orange overstack at 18,11 (Pesaro bridge), many yellow/orange health, deployment unknown, 54% entrenched
- solo armor unit at 12,14 (super-river opposite Mondiano), red health, deployment unknown, no entrenchment
- orange overstack at 11,16 (at Folgia Ford), mixed health, 15% entrenchment
- yellow overstack at 11, 17 (road to San Marino), mixed health, 100% entrenchment

In the German half of Turn 9:

My plans for this turn are:
- Re-take Gothic line hexes west of Montecalvo with fresh 5th Geb and 98th ID
- Dig in Turkish and 71st IDs behind Foglia between Montecalvo and Montecchio
- Use local LA/ML+DA attacks to inflict losses on Allies at 11,16 and 12,14
- Dig in 26th Pzr and 1st FJ along the Foglia from Montecchio to Adriatic coast
- Use local LA/ML+DA attacks to inflict losses on Allies at 18,11 and 14,14

Round 1:
- attack at 6,16 (them 0%, us 17%)
- attack at 7,16 (them 2%, us 10%)
- attack at 11,16 (them 2%, us 3%, all 5 defenders retreat)
- attack at 12,14 (them 0%, us 10%)
- attack at 14,14 (them 12%, us 3%)
- attack at 17,14 (them 4%, us 12%, 18 WS Inf retreats)
- attack at 18,11 (them 3%, us 5%)
- attack at 19,13 (them 5%, us 3%, burned 5 rounds, 3rd Karp Eng retreats)
- 50% remains

Round 2:
- attack on 7,16 (them 4%, us 7%)
- attack on 9,16 (them 1%, us 6%)
- attack on 14, 14 (them 15%, us 11%)
- attack on 18, 11 (them 4%, us 7%, burns 3 rounds, 3 of 5 defenders retreat)
- 20% remains

Round 3:
- FA/IL attack 19,13 (them 4%, us 15%)
- LA/IL attack 14,14 (them 4%, us 14%)
- FA/IL attack 18,11 (them 1%, us 6%, both defenders retreat, 1 FJ co advances)

Pre-round-1 and end-of-turn SALs attached.

No VP hexes changed hands; LPs now 22 Axis, 21 Allies; small chance of reclaiming Pesaro next turn, somewhat better chance of reclaiming western GL hexes as I've turned his flank, it seems, and he'll either need to withdraw or reinforce.

General Staff

11 Oct 07, 17:14

Looking at this, I think the next attacks will come at the middle of your line- Mondaino and Montecchio. He seems- from the little I've seen- quite methodical and why not since it worked for Monty at El Alamein++ and use that arty. I'd:

1) Drive into Pesaro and put something fairly large there- combined arms stack and if you've read 2WIN you know what I mean.
2) Site arty for best benefit. Which you seem to have been doing brilliantly so preaching to the converted here.
3) Think a turn ahead here in terms of siting armour a hex behind in TR mode to aid defense. I wouldn't do this turn. Keep as a T10 surprise but start thinking about where to get it for maximum effect burning his rounds and keeping those VP locations and causing CW casualties. If you do right you'll have for last T10 counterattacks too and it won't go another turn after that anyway.
4) In terms of LA/ML attacks think soft targets. I know that sounds (and is) awful, but that means largely infantry. And don't do CW armour- they may be Shermans or other British crap but they've just got too many of them.
5) Some of your arty east could be moved a little left to help defense.

murphstein

11 Oct 07, 21:54

Looking at this, I think the next attacks will come at the middle of your line- Mondaino and Montecchio. He seems- from the little I've seen- quite methodical and why not since it worked for Monty at El Alamein++ and use that arty.

His next turn will be 10a, so my next turn should end the game.

I've used the armor-on-TR tactic a couple of times this game, but don't have another opportunity left.

In my half of Turn 10, I plan to focus on taking back Pesaro on the left, taking back the GL VP hexes west of Montecalvo on the right, and repairing any damage he does in the middle with his last turn.

He does have a very large stack as 12,15, but they're either survivors from his previous attacks at Montecchio and Mondiano, or arty. I've been chewing up his Brit/Can inf and engrs all game in this sector; he keeps over-stacking them on the Montecchio bridge unentrenched, where they've been sitting ducks for my LA/ML+DA attacks. I've been fairly routinely inflicting ~25% losses at that location. In real life, he'd be able to cross the Foglia there just by walking on all the bodies and wrecked eqpt.

I was also surprised to find no Allied units in 6,17 or 6,18; in his last turn, he'll need to counter the 5th Geb getting around his flank, or I'll be getting flank attacks on his 4th Indian ID units.

General Staff

12 Oct 07, 04:17

Veers

12 Oct 07, 12:11

Seems like a sound plan. Maybe we should come up with some sort of MVP award for these tournaments, because you'd get it. Problem is the field is limited judging by # of posts, but what I will say is that you're well on your way. Having seen both the 2WIN and now R2R tourneys, you're actually the 'Veers' of this one (Axis side) and that's saying something. I do hope you continue with TOAW and the best of luck.

HA! Everybody loves Wyatt!!! :hurray:

More importantly, Murph, judging from your posts and progress in this game, I can only second GS's comments.

As to the lack of players. I really don't know what happened. The Allies have several players, and games, ongoing, but the Axis team, motly, decided not to get any help...Very strange.

General Staff

12 Oct 07, 15:09

The Allies have several players, and games, ongoing, but the Axis team, mostly, decided not to get any help...Very strange.Maybe it's easier for the Germans. Dig in, site your arty well, stay still, and whatever you do don't go driving around- and certainly not downhill.

murphstein

12 Oct 07, 20:27

Veers

12 Oct 07, 23:12

Thanks for the kind words.

Have either of you been peeking in the Allied private forum? Do you have any idea how the other games are going? It's not that I'm competitive (well, I am, but not here now), but I *am* wondering who else in this workshop be a well-matched opponent.

Or should I just go challenge some old grognard and get my FIRST a**-kicking over with?

Well, since I'm kina running the Workshop I have been in and out of both forums.
However, I would suggest you just go out and challenge a vet and learn from that. Often times you can learn more form gettign your ass handed to you by a vet then from stomping a newb, or even having a balanced match.

murphstein

13 Oct 07, 04:10

The Allies in their half of Turn 10 got 1 combat round:

Round 1:
- attack at 18,11 succeeds (FJ co retreats, Allies do not advance)
- attack at 8,15 repulsed (Fus co, inf co retreat)
- attack at 10,15 repulsed (StuG co evaporates, inf co retreats)

He's parked 8 battalions of armor in Petriano, and 5 mixed battalions and 3 HQs in Urbino, so I guess I'm not going raiding in my last turn.

There was some movement that might have been armor going into 20,11 (TR to support Pesaro?).

End of 10a: Allies 28 VPs, 14 LP; Axis 72 VPs, 20 LP; score is 38/100, Axis MV

Per the air briefing, enemy theater interdiction is at 23% (22% last turn). Dang, don't they ever quit?

Allies vulnerabilities:
- red overstack at 14,14 (Montecchio bridge), all inf, green/yellow health, moved, no entrenchment
- orange overstack at 9,16 (Montecalvo), all inf, green health, moved, def=44, 100% entrenchment
- yellow overstack at 19, 12 (S of Pesaro), 4 inf/AT btlns, green health, 42% entrenchment
- Allied far left (Cnt India Horse in 6,16) has flank in air; def=13, 100% entrenchment, flankable
- hexes 6,17-19 and 7,18-20 (Urbino to GL) are empty; his line is on the road except for 6,16 and 7,17
- Pesaro is occupied by one Polish battalion each of Motor Inf and Heavy Mortar

In the German half of Turn 10:

29th PzrGrn Div arrives N of Rimini; probably not much use at this point, except as targets for the RAF and maybe some arty support.

My plans for this turn are:
- LA/ML+DA attacks from 6,16 to Montecalvo with fresh 5th Geb and 98th ID units to his loosen grip on the Gothic Line
- LA/ML+DA attacks to inflict losses on Allied stack at 14,14 (Montecchio bridge hex, again)
- Send 26th Pzr and 1st FJ onto Pesaro bridge, test defenses, LA/ML+DA attacks on inf at 19,12; see what develops, and maybe take Pesaro.

All attacks are LA/MA+DA by freshest unit in the area with enough MPs, except where noted:

Round 1:
Montecalvo sector:
- at 7,16 w/6 arty btlns in direct support (them 4%, us 8%, they retreat).
- at 9,16 w/7 arty btlns in direct support (them 4%, us 8%)
Montecchio bridge:
- at 14,14 w/9 arty btlns in direct support (them 12%, us 8%)
Pesaro bridge:
- at 19,11 w/7 arty btlns in direct support (them 0%, us 13%)
- 80% remaining

Round 2:
- advance into 7,16
- at 6,16 now almost surrounded (them 1%, us 7%)
- at 9,16 (them 4%, us 8%)
- at 14,14 (them 12%, us 5%)
- at 19,11 (them 4%, us 7%)
- at 19,12 (them 5%, us 6%)
- 70% remaining

Round 3:
- at 6,16 (them 35%, us 3%, they evap/retreat)
- at 9,16 (them 6%, us 16%, they retreat)
- at 14,14 (them 11%, us 5%)
- at 19,11 (them 3%, us 10%)
- 50% remaining

Round 4:
- advance into 6,16 and dig in
- advance into Montecalvo (9,16) and dig in
- at overstack in in 8,16 full of retreated units (them 6%, us 11%)
- at overstack in in 10,16 full of retreated units (them 6%, us 6%)
[edit: in retrospect, this was a mistake; should have focused on 9,16, which was a VP hex]
- at 14,14 (them 6%, us 7%)
- at 19,11 (them 0%, us 10%)
- 40% remaining

Round 5:
- at 8,16 (them 6%, us 8%)
- at 10,16 (them 10%, us 11%)
[edit: continued the mistake; my excuse is that I had VPs-off so I could see my units]
- at 14,14 (them 8%, us 11%, some retreat)
- at 19,11 (them 5%, us 4%)
- at 19,12 (them 8%, us 4%)
- turn ends, just one round too soon.
[edit: looking back this was a mistake; should have gone IL on Pesaro at this point]

Reclaimed all but one of the VP hexes in the Gothic Line, and came close to retaking Pesaro.

[edit: explicitly stating the biggest lesson *I* learned in this game.]
Caused another bloodbath at Montecchio: 49% losses on 5 btlns of inf/eng/arm-inf in mostly good health with a combined defensive strength of 68 by 2 3+2 FJ companies attacking in alternation, backed up by 9 or more btlns of arty in direct support. A powerful lesson there, my friends...

[edit: a detail I forgot to mention originally]
I put my 6 remaining Me-109s on AS/IL at the start of my turn, which did nothing to the Allied interdiction levels. Looks like 4 of them survived...

End of 10b: Allies 24 VPs, 24 LP; Axis 76 VPs, 28 LP; score is 48/100, Axis SV

murphstein

13 Oct 07, 04:20

Veers

13 Oct 07, 05:41

murphstein

13 Oct 07, 12:59

Now that I've got an end-of-game SAL, how to I look at the relative losses of the Allies and Axis forces?

Foggy

13 Oct 07, 13:16

PS - I invited Rickie to take a look at this thread, and at the GS vs Elmer games in here, to try to figure out what was going wrong with his attacks. I think he never got more than 3 combat rounds the whole game, and usually just one, so I recommended he read these threads. So edit out all those nasty things you were all saying about him... ;-)
:devious:

I think you will find out thru this forum and others - what does cheating gain for you? Your opponents will wonder why you win most games - unless your
name starts w/J or B :smoke:What will happen though is you will find some players that share your ideas - still try to kick your ass - but will be happy to help! You'll play better as a result - and maybe migrate to the Ost front scenarios where TOAW reigns supreme:halo:

Veers

13 Oct 07, 15:00

I think you will find out thru this forum and others - what does cheating gain for you? Your opponents will wonder why you win most games - unless your
name starts w/J or B :smoke:
Or 'V'...:devious:
Alright, I assume J=James, who's B?

What will happen though is you will find some players that share your ideas - still try to kick your ass - but will be happy to help! You'll play better as a result - and maybe migrate to the Ost front scenarios where TOAW reigns supreme:halo:
HA! Ost front, bah. EA forever! :cool:

murphstein

13 Oct 07, 15:04

I just didn't want Veers (who claimed to monitor forum access) to think he was doing some unauthorized snooping.

And as a multi-generation resident of the Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Santa Cruz, I often express my solidarity with the proletariat by destroying the Fascist invaders of Mother Russia in TOAW's the Great Patriotic War scenarios.

My avatar is not an SS symbol; its a Grateful Dead "Stealie" image rendered as burnished metal... ;-)

murphstein

13 Oct 07, 15:07

Speaking of forums, look for me over on the Allied side for the next few weeks; I'm playing R2R vs Drakken's Axis forces.

murphstein

13 Oct 07, 15:37

And as a final note, here's some random jottings from my notes about what I've learned playing this game.

First and foremost, it finally struck me that the reason TOAW is hard to learn is that it's realistic. I know I'll get the usual arguments about this or that "gamey" behavior, but the truth is the game models the reality of combat better than anything else I've played. All the "simplifying assumptions" other games embed to make game-play more tractable have be dealt with here as a commander. I don't think I really appreciated that about TOAW until this workshop.

So when in doubt, ask what Patton or Rommel *could* do, not *would* do; it took Patton's lead units only a day to reach the area of Bastogne (actually, before the encirclement closed), but it took them 4 days to get organized for the attack. Same here. Move first, get in position, then attack; piece-meal run-and-hit attacks are usually wasted effort.

Put defenders on IL, except for specialists in front lines, damaged units, and dig, dig, dig; use broken-up engrs to help other units entrench faster/deeper.

In presence of heavy air interdiction, split, move and recombine moving units to average out the losses. Be aware that they may not be able to recombine or dig in after an air strike, so stop short of the final goal, regroup, and decide whether to proceed with the planned action.

For units in "retreated" state, set up an attack and cancel it to regain mobile status, then dig in with the remaining MPs.

Use arty on direct support in IL mode, even when the attack is LA/ML; this doesn't burn rounds and makes sure the arty keeps firing if the attack goes multiple rounds.

Place arty to cover maximum number of units, and the front-line enemy, to maximize indirect support; place each arty unit so ALL its guns are in range, not just the (potentially very few) with the longest displayed range.

Check unit report details for real arty ranges, unit capabilities (vs air, vs armor, vs infantry, engr squads), etc.

Over-stacks of infantry in the open are prime targets for LA/ML+DA attacks to run up losses.

Before turn end, check for units with MPs, dug-out units, cmd radius for HQs, arty positioning, etc. The formation report dialog shows the MPs left for each unit, it's deployment, and let's you dig in or TR any you missed.

Don't use red-health units for soak-off attacks; they'll just evaporate and make you look stoopid.

Flak's AT capabilities seem to be best used on defense; so dig them in with supporting inf and armor units, plus you now get real AA from them; don't be fooled by their "big" attack values, that apparently only applies to aircraft?

Use combined arms stacks (some armor, more inf, a few assault guns, some AT or AA, some engineers, etc.) to hold a must-keep hex, particularly in urban ruins or other advantageous terrain.

Billy Mitchell notwithstanding, TOAW says navy beats air; don't send planes to dive-bomb those floating arty platforms.

Dig in defender units under attackers, so if the turn ends early, you're not completely hosed; if you take the attacked hex, your line is still intact and you have some defensive depth for your opponent's round.

If you suspect an incoming armor attack, put some tanks one hex away on TR to surprise the attacker; don't be surprised yourself to see these tanks just evaporate, either, if the incoming attack is overwhelming.

Use the attack planner dialog to avoid getting an RBC when you just want to get rid of a pest fragment, without moving into its hex.

If you select an arty unit for support in the attack planner, then de-select it, you've just changed it's deployment status, wasting your MPs used to dig it in. Don't set up arty attacks on fly unless you're sure what units you want to use with what attacks.

ANY units with ANY engineering squads can enter super-river hexes at the sites of blown bridges, in order to repair the bridges; as a result, they can also cross the river and bite you in the butt.

Check for air and naval strikes knocking units out of D/E/F status, particularly arty; with no MPs left (having dug in before the strike), you need to set them up in TR mode, and remember to go back next turn and dig them in again. It seems to help to stack arty with something else to absorb some of the pain.

JAMiAM

15 Oct 07, 02:28

Now that I've got an end-of-game SAL, how to I look at the relative losses of the Allies and Axis forces?
Load the SAL, then click on a unit of the opfor. You will then be in his shoes, and can see the game from his point of view, from deployments, to inventories, to unit reports, et al.

General Staff

21 Oct 07, 19:29

And as a final note, here's some random jottings from my notes about what I've learned playing this game...

Use arty on direct support in IL mode, even when the attack is LA/ML; this doesn't burn rounds and makes sure the arty keeps firing if the attack goes multiple rounds...

Don't use red-health units for soak-off attacks; they'll just evaporate and make you look stoopid...

Billy Mitchell notwithstanding, TOAW says navy beats air; don't send planes to dive-bomb those floating arty platforms...

If you suspect an incoming armor attack, put some tanks one hex away on TR to surprise the attacker; don't be surprised yourself to see these tanks just evaporate, either, if the incoming attack is overwhelming...For lessons learned, IMO this is a staggering tour de force from a new player. A few points of contention plus some items I'm not sure of myself:

1) Arty on IL in Direct Support mode to support all rounds as the ground unit goes in. Not sure of this, but believe setting it to ML still means it will support every round the ground unit goes in, not just the first.

2) Red health units for soak off attacks. Needs must... It's really an arty attack for maximum effect so the boys have to go in no matter what shape they're in. Judgment call really but I will send red-lined lads in if necessary.

3) Check the planes. Some have good Anti-Shipping capability- JU87s. So do go in, though you might not have much success. In this scenario in T1/2 you'll find swarms of Allied air out to stymie your pitiful raid but that's knocking the supply/readiness of each unit involved which means less effective interdiction later, so a decent bang for buck.

All the rest I think spot on.