Yet another rewrite of Patton '45

[Infohazard]

Hi All
I’ve always wanted to do a rewrite of this scenario that would give the Russians more of a fighting chance. The question is, is it possible to do so and still have a balanced, somewhat historically accurate scenario? Here are the changes I plan to make – any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

The Map:
Was there really no paved road or rail line connecting Prague to Dresden in 1945? Does anyone know? I’ve tried in vain to find a road map of the region circa 1945 with no luck. Other than possibly drawing this road/rail line in, I plan to make no changes.

The Forces:
Here’s where the biggest changes I plan are. I’m including some new equipment for the Soviets that will include the following: JS IIm, PT-34/85, OT-34/85.
I also plan to remove some equipment from the Soviet arsenal – no LAGG-3s, MIG-9s, YAK-4s or American lend-lease equipment of any kind. Yes, some Soviet squadrons still flew LAGG-3s in 1945 – I very much doubt those aircraft would be sent against the Americans, however – doing so would simply be a waste of pilots. There were no MIG-9s in service in 1945, and I think any American lend-lease material (tanks*, planes, etc.) would be held behind the lines to prevent confusion (I may include P-39s for the Russians – the Yanks didn’t fly them in 1945 and many of the top Soviet aces swore by them).
When considering the make up of the Soviet force, I tried to approach the problem from a Front commander’s perspective. How would fighting the Americans differ from fighting the Germans? As a Soviet commander I would fear American artillery most of all, followed by airpower, and lastly the sheer number of American tanks and SP anti-tank artillery that was liberally dispersed among even the infantry formations.
To counter these American advantages, my Soviet force is composed of three heavily reinforced Shock armies for the breakthrough phase of the operation, followed by three tank armies for exploitation. The Soviet force will include a few innovations not included in the original scenario including: supply units, anti-aircraft divisions, break-through artillery corps, engineer brigades, bridging units, AT brigades, rocket artillery divisions, motorcycle regiments, rail repair units and a JS-III regiment.
The armor component of the brigades in the tank armies will be equipped entirely with T-34/85s and the assault gun regiments will have JSU-152s and JSU-122s. Infantry divisions will be reinforced by an SU-76 battalion.
The idea behind these reinforcements would be to a) ensure a rapid breakthrough as possible with engineers/assault guns/artillery to keep Soviet forces from being pinned down and slaughtered by American artillery b) counter the numerous American tanks with T-34/85s assigned to the Shock Armies for that purpose and c) keep the US air force at bay with massive amounts of AAA and 1st line fighters.
I also plan to reduce the proficiency of Soviet artillery and provide for a withdrawal of the breakthrough artillery corps units by turn 5 to reflect exhaustion of ammunition and the tendency of the Soviets to only use these units in the breakthrough phase of an operation.
For the Americans, I’ll get rid of those massive AA brigades and break them into their historical divisional attachments. All divisions and attached tank/tank destroyer battalions will have historically accurate OOBs. The Americans will also get several supply units to reflect their superior logistical capability. The fearsome M4/76 will also have it’s attack factor lowered to reflect its abilities in 1945. All American artillery units will be given very high proficiency to reflect their advanced doctrine. Does anyone know of any independent armor/TD/artillery units assigned to the Third Army or its component Corps that weren’t directly assigned to divisions? I have no info on these units and would like to include them if possible.
The American air units in the game will be left as-is unless someone knows of any changes that should be made (I may end up adding more medium bomber units).
Both sides will have access to various reinforcements via theater options but will have to pay a point cost for them.
I also want to put in a rule that limits tanks' ability to dig in – I’d to make ‘D’ the most common fortification level with ‘E’ being rare and ‘F’ showing up very little or not at all. Any ideas on what would be the best way to implement this?

*I may put some Shermans in a forward detachment for use as a unit to sieze bridges and other vital ground.

[Foggy]

Most of those ideas sound great - I would probably rethink the medium
bombers though - those units were the last to be drawn down;) God that word sounds right but looks ugly! I think you'll have to spend some time on the map - the scen P45 on the disk needs a lot of work:smoke:

[Telumar]

The map. The hilly and wooded frontier area between Czechia and Bavaria. Is this really the best place for the biggest tank battle since Kursk so to speak?

But i'm with Foggy, :thumup:, your ideas sound good.

Btw, Viridomaros (Pierre) is working on an own Patton 45 version.

[Foggy]

The map. The hilly and wooded frontier area between Czechia and Bavaria. Is this really the best place for the biggest tank battle since Kursk so to speak?

But i'm with Foggy, :thumup:, your ideas sound good.

Btw, Viridomaros (Pierre) is working on an own Patton 45 version.

Mensch & I playtested a few turns of Viri's new scen - needs some more work:laugh:

[Infohazard]

Most of those ideas sound great - I would probably rethink the medium
bombers though - those units were the last to be drawn down;) God that word sounds right but looks ugly! I think you'll have to spend some time on the map - the scen P45 on the disk needs a lot of work:smoke:

Hmmm, so the map is pretty bad, then . . oh well, time to break out the Atlas :D
When you say the meduim bombers were the last to be drawn down, do you mean that they were the last to be demobilized?

[Infohazard]

The map. The hilly and wooded frontier area between Czechia and Bavaria. Is this really the best place for the biggest tank battle since Kursk so to speak?

But i'm with Foggy, :thumup:, your ideas sound good.

Btw, Viridomaros (Pierre) is working on an own Patton 45 version.

Sounds like I'll definately have to start from scratch with the map unless I switch the locale. If I wanted to keep it vs. the US, I could go for a Fulda Gap scen. Would this or another locale be more interesting?

[Foggy]

Hmmm, so the map is pretty bad, then . . oh well, time to break out the Atlas :D
When you say the meduim bombers were the last to be drawn down, do you mean that they were the last to be demobilized?

Yes - the 8th Air Force lost the B-17's first, most of the P51 & P47 squadrons
next and the mediums last. The tactical air forces were actually in good shape equipment wise but not so good in manpower:laugh: You may want to talk to Viri (Pierre) about the map - bridge blowing would have to be a honor rule - the terrain is not appealing for planning large armoured assaults;)

[Telumar]

Sounds like I'll definately have to start from scratch with the map unless I switch the locale. If I wanted to keep it vs. the US, I could go for a Fulda Gap scen. Would this or another locale be more interesting?

I don't know wether the map represents the terrain realistically. It's just, as Foggy mentioned, that the area where the classic Patton'45 scenario takes place may not be suited too well for big armoured thrusts and manouever.

But the political/historical hypothesis about a US/Soviet conflict about Czechia will hardly allow for a push through the so called Fulda gap. If you want this you may need another hypothesis/background. Also, do you know when exactly the US Army retreated from that area of the former GDR that they had occupied before the german surrender? Not that you have the soviets going through Fulda when they actually first would have to go through Thuringia or ..wait..look here:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8199/mittelne9.jpg

[L`zard]

Telumar;

Can we have a linky to the site this map comes from? Looks like a keeper, hey?

[Telumar]

Here: http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=worldwarii_europe_maps_map82 .htm

[Foggy]

I don't know wether the map represents the terrain realistically. It's just, as Foggy mentioned, that the area where the classic Patton'45 scenario takes place may not be suited too well for big armoured thrusts and manouever.

But the political/historical hypothesis about a US/Soviet conflict about Czechia will hardly allow for a push through the so called Fulda gap. If you want this you may need another hypothesis/background. Also, do you know when exactly the US Army retreated from that area of the former GDR that they had occupied before the german surrender? Not that you have the soviets going through Fulda when they actually first would have to go through Thuringia or ..wait..look here:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8199/mittelne9.jpg
Thanks Telumar - George did'nt believe in paying blood twice for the same objective;) His rule which he violated many times:halo: You're right about the map - how do you whack the Allies and teach them a lesson from that front line:halo:

[Infohazard]

I don't know wether the map represents the terrain realistically. It's just, as Foggy mentioned, that the area where the classic Patton'45 scenario takes place may not be suited too well for big armoured thrusts and manouever.

But the political/historical hypothesis about a US/Soviet conflict about Czechia will hardly allow for a push through the so called Fulda gap. If you want this you may need another hypothesis/background. Also, do you know when exactly the US Army retreated from that area of the former GDR that they had occupied before the german surrender? Not that you have the soviets going through Fulda when they actually first would have to go through Thuringia or ..wait..look here:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8199/mittelne9.jpg

Hey, thanks for the map!
That gives me some ideas - how about a Soviet attack against the Ninth Army? The First Army was almost immediately demoblized when hostilities ended - that would leave the Ninth holding a pretty extended front. The Russian attack would focus on the Ninth army sector with the objective being the Swiss border, cutting off the American armies in Czechoslovakia and Austria.
This would mean a completely different scenario, of course, but I think it could be worth doing . .

[Telumar]

Hey, thanks for the map!
That gives me some ideas - how about a Soviet attack against the Ninth Army? The First Army was almost immediately demoblized when hostilities ended - that would leave the Ninth holding a pretty extended front. The Russian attack would focus on the Ninth army sector with the objective being the Swiss border, cutting off the American armies in Czechoslovakia and Austria.
This would mean a completely different scenario, of course, but I think it could be worth doing . .

Sounds sweet. Huge, gigantic..would the US have rearmed the germans? With what? Have there been still stockpiled weapons of the former Wehrmacht?

[Infohazard]

Sounds sweet. Huge, gigantic..would the US have rearmed the germans? With what? Have there been still stockpiled weapons of the former Wehrmacht?

Ha ha, yeah - huge, gigantic :laugh:
This is funny because I originally planned this to be a small 'practice' scenario I could work on before I started work on my truly huge 'Operation Konrad/Siege of Budapest' scen.
That's ok, though - I like the idea enough that I'll do it anyway. I'll start by doing a smaller version of the larger scenario - say a Soviet breakthrough operation vs. a US division around Magdeburg - that'll give me some practice and we can see how the two opposing forces interact etc.
I'm not so sure the US would have rearmed the Wehrmacht - however, perhaps it can become a theater option once the Soviet forces gain a certain VP location. If the US chooses to use it, it'll cost some points, but he'll get some rearmed German soldiers. Getting them weapons wouldn't have been a problem - I'm thinking they would have American officers who spoke German and would have a mix of American and German military gear (kind of like what the Russians did with the Romanians) - after all, there lots of German tanks sitting around that just needed some gas to get going. Lots of jets, too - hmmm, now there's an evil thought . . .:devious::devil:

[Foggy]

Ha ha, yeah - huge, gigantic :laugh:
This is funny because I originally planned this to be a small 'practice' scenario I could work on before I started work on my truly huge 'Operation Konrad/Siege of Budapest' scen.
That's ok, though - I like the idea enough that I'll do it anyway. I'll start by doing a smaller version of the larger scenario - say a Soviet breakthrough operation vs. a US division around Magdeburg - that'll give me some practice and we can see how the two opposing forces interact etc.
I'm not so sure the US would have rearmed the Wehrmacht - however, perhaps it can become a theater option once the Soviet forces gain a certain VP location. If the US chooses to use it, it'll cost some points, but he'll get some rearmed German soldiers. Getting them weapons wouldn't have been a problem - I'm thinking they would have American officers who spoke German and would have a mix of American and German military gear (kind of like what the Russians did with the Romanians) - after all, there lots of German tanks sitting around that just needed some gas to get going. Lots of jets, too - hmmm, now there's an evil thought . . .:devious::devil:

That's a great evil thought - rearmed Germans & American logistics - who knows what could happen;)

[Dicke Bertha]

Wonder what would happen if Stalin approaches Hitler in late 1944 and offers joint-venture.

[Foggy]

Wonder what would happen if Stalin approaches Hitler in late 1944 and offers joint-venture.
What are the odds of this happening? Granted the hordes of Soviet armor/artillery w/German commanders is appealing - who's going to command the forces? Berlin would replace Hiroshima ;)

[Dicke Bertha]

What are the odds of this happening? Granted the hordes of Soviet armor/artillery w/German commanders is appealing - who's going to command the forces? Berlin would replace Hiroshima ;)

Nah, a deal early 1944. Triggered by Stalin's ultimate feeling of being cheated or short-dealed, coupled with uncertainty of actually being able to beat the German beast, coupled with less than 100% hatred for the fascist invaders on his part. For Hitler, well, a little 180-turn in the face of total loss... For realism, I don't know, consult your local tea-leaves schaman, if such are still around.

[Levelworm]

Anyone at home? Maybe someone has finished the map but forgot to submit it!

[Merf]

Heres a snippet of the Dresden-Prague area from a 1944 National Geographic Map. Red lines are roads, double red are autobahns and black lines are rails. FYI

[Menschenfresser]

If you do use the existing Patton map, get rid of the Plzen supply point. Since this is a fictional scen, you might as well go for playable (if you're looking to do a small entry-level scen) rather than a best estimate what-if. The central problem with this scenario is that American reinforcements arrive long before the Soviets can manage a decent breakthrough and consolidate their gains. The Soviets gain a little ground and stalemate.

In the original version, the starting Soviets units aren't at full supply and readiness. In Viri's version, I think they have full supply, but are lacking about half the authorized Rifle Squads in each division. I say, just give them a full tank of gas across the board.

[Foggy]

If you do use the existing Patton map, get rid of the Plzen supply point. Since this is a fictional scen, you might as well go for playable (if you're looking to do a small entry-level scen) rather than a best estimate what-if. The central problem with this scenario is that American reinforcements arrive long before the Soviets can manage a decent breakthrough and consolidate their gains. The Soviets gain a little ground and stalemate.

In the original version, the starting Soviets units aren't at full supply and readiness. In Viri's version, I think they have full supply, but are lacking about half the authorized Rifle Squads in each division. I say, just give them a full tank of gas across the board.

What do you do about the air units? The Americans out class, out support,
out everything compared to the Red Air Force?

[Menschenfresser]

The air war should be the first to turn around for the Americans. But that shouldn't exclude giving the Soviets air superiority during the first few turns to knock out bridges in the hinterland.

[Foggy]

The air war should be the first to turn around for the Americans. But that shouldn't exclude giving the Soviets air superiority during the first few turns to knock out bridges in the hinterland.

Yep - this makes sense - P51's allowing Soviet access to 9th AF air areas:clown: Patton would have these squadron commanders shot - not to mention the long line of aviators who thought that Soviet pilots were
quite overated :p

[Infohazard]

What do you do about the air units? The Americans out class, out support,
out everything compared to the Red Air Force?

My appologies for not updating this thread sooner - I got busy researching a different order of battle for a fight farther to the north. This would be a smaller battle between an American armored division and an attacking, reinforced Soviet corps.
I wouldn't count out the Red Air Force too quickly - the Yak-3 was probably the best low-level fighter of WWII, and many of their pilots had flown hundreds of missions by the time 1945 rolled around and were quite good.
They did lack a good high level interceptor and a decent night fighter as well.
The Russians would have known this as well, of course, and I'm trying to think of counter-measures they would have dreamed up to counter the American superiority in these areas - would they have utilized captured German aircraft, perhaps? Or would massive AA be their only recourse to high altitude American and British bombers?
Suffice to say that I'll be starting to work on this scenario again - I'm wondering, though, what people would enjoy more - a re-write of the original Patton '45, or the smaller div vs. corps scenario?

[Menschenfresser]

I've played Patton twice PBEM and I can't really imagine doing so again even if the scenario was balanced and tweaked to perfection. The map and objectives and forces just don't capture the imagination. What could make it interesting would be to introduce a host of theater options to give it infinite alternatives and what-ifs so that each game is slightly different.

[Levelworm]

Too many theater options might delay the design process, I would like to see just a re-work, of course the more the merrier!

[Infohazard]

Hi All -
I've finished researching TO&Es and am about 2/3rds done with the map.
The map runs from Wittenburg in the north to Madgeburg in the south, goes a little beyond Hannover to the west and a little ways past the Elbe River to the east.
Each hex equals 2k and scale will be battalions for the US and regiments for the Soviets.
The match up will be the US 9th Army vs. two Soviet Shock Armies plus one Tank Army.
I'm going to use the unit editor to tone down 76mm armed US vehicles to more realistic levels and to add JS-2ms, OT-34/85s, PT-34/76s and other vehicles to the game.
Theater options will be included for both sides to request reinforcements of various kinds in exchange for VP.
If anyone has any suggestions or comments, please let me know!

[Foggy]

[QUOTE=Infohazard;971525]Hi All -
I've finished researching TO&Es and am about 2/3rds done with the map.
The map runs from Wittenburg in the north to Madgeburg in the south, goes a little beyond Hannover to the west and a little ways past the Elbe River to the east.
Each hex equals 2k and scale will be battalions for the US and regiments for the Soviets.
The match up will be the US 9th Army vs. two Soviet Shock Armies plus one Tank Army.
I'm going to use the unit editor to tone down 76mm armed US vehicles to more realistic levels and to add JS-2ms, OT-34/85s, PT-34/76s and other vehicles to the game.
Theater options will be included for both sides to request reinforcements of various kinds in exchange for VP.
If anyone has any suggestions or comments, please let me know![/QUOTE
That's sounds great = air forces?:smoke:

[Levelworm]

Hi All -
I've finished researching TO&Es and am about 2/3rds done with the map.
The map runs from Wittenburg in the north to Madgeburg in the south, goes a little beyond Hannover to the west and a little ways past the Elbe River to the east.
Each hex equals 2k and scale will be battalions for the US and regiments for the Soviets.
The match up will be the US 9th Army vs. two Soviet Shock Armies plus one Tank Army.
I'm going to use the unit editor to tone down 76mm armed US vehicles to more realistic levels and to add JS-2ms, OT-34/85s, PT-34/76s and other vehicles to the game.
Theater options will be included for both sides to request reinforcements of various kinds in exchange for VP.
If anyone has any suggestions or comments, please let me know!

Very nice! Can we play this scenario in the next month? :D

[Infohazard]

That's sounds great = air forces?:smoke:[/QUOTE]

For the Soviets at start:
1 ShAD (Air Assault Div) = 3 Regiments of Il-10
2 IAD (Fighter Division) = 6 Regiments of Yak-3 and La-7
2 BAP (Bomber Regiments) 1 Regiment each of Tu-2 and Pe-2

Each Regiment listed above will be divided into three squadrons - two squadrons will have 10 aircraft with the third having 12.

For the US at start:
322nd Bomb Group (B-26) - 48 aircraft divided into 3 squadrons of 16.
358th Fighter Group (P-47) - 48 aircraft ""

Coming in later:
354th Fighter Group (P-51) - 48 aircraft ""
474th Fighter Group (P-38) - 48 aircraft ""
386th Bomb Group (A-26) - 48 aircraft ""
368th Fighter Group (P-47) - 48 aircraft ""


US heavy bomber superiority will be shown by steady decreases in Soviet supply over time.

[Infohazard]

Very nice! Can we play this scenario in the next month? :D

If we're lucky, yes. This is my first scenario, so it may take me some time to puzzle through the editor :D

[Levelworm]

If we're lucky, yes. This is my first scenario, so it may take me some time to puzzle through the editor :D

Thanks! Please plz dont rush, thanks!:p