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Bullethead
30 Jul 07, 15:12
This is kinda off-topic, but it does involve a battleship, a sub, and an old naval battle, so I figure it's OK :). I spent the 1st half of last week in Mobile, showing my nephew the various things of military historical interest. That's why I haven't posted lately.

First off is the battleship Alabama. This ship is in pretty good condition, although none of the AA guns still move. One of the attached pics shows my nephew, Andy, who is about 5'2" tall, standing in front of the forward main turrets. Even though this class of ship was the "smallest" of modern US BBs, it's still a huge hunk of iron :). The ship is in pretty much late-WW2 configuration, having been disposed of shortly after the war and never recommissioned. Also in WW2 condition is the fleet sub Drum, which is now mounted on stands on dry land like a giant model on a shelf. When I was young, this sub was in the water just behind the BB. The same facility also has a collection of airplanes and tanks, the former including such rareties as an OS2U, an A-11 (single-seat prototype of the SR-71), and the YF-17 prototype.

Hurricane Katrina sideswiped the Mobile area and did some damage to all these things. The BB came off the best but had a 10^ list after the storm. She's in fine shape now. The sub took a pounding and hasn't been fixed up to the same extent, although work was in progress while we were there. The sub's main problem is that she was pretty much rusted out beforehand, which is why she got put on land. The storm surge crumpled the stern casing by the aft tubes, which was pretty much paper thin from rust anyway. The worst damage was to the airplane collection, however. The surge came through the hangar walls about 10' deep, piled the planes on top of each other, and dropped sections of hangar wall on them. Thus, most took serious damage. They're slowly being put back together and several are back inside, but even these still have many dents, bent wingtips, etc. Most planes, however are outside looking pretty sad, with much more obvious damage. The P-51 appears the worst, with the whole tail assembly smashed. It kinda looks like one of those post-war scrap yards :(.

30 miles or so south of town there are 2 old forts, one on each side of the entrance to Mobile Bay. These are Ft. Morgan to the east and Ft. Gaines to the west on Dauphin Island. This is where, in 1864, during the Battle of Mobile Bay, Admiral Farragut said "Damn the torpedoes!"

Ft. Morgan was the main one involved in the battle because the channel Farragut ran was close to it. This fort is now a state park, so I figured it would be in better post-Katrina shape. However, it actually looks pretty run-down. Briars and scrub have completely overgrown the glacis and covered way, and are taking good hold on the ramparts. I don't think they've been trimmed since the storm, although the grass in the ditch and parade seems to be mowed regularly. The overgrowth is so extensive that the fort looks like a natural hill from the outside, and is only apparent as a fort from inside. This fort suffered extensive updates around 1900, with several batteries of disappearing guns installed in and around the fort. Thus, only the landward side near the entrance looks much like it did in 1864. The concrete of the newer gun positions was VERY cheaply done so, in common with that at other old forts around the Gulf Coast, is falling apart more rapidly than the original brick.

This fort was built in 1833 and had the classic pentagonal bastioned trace. The escarp wall is vertical brick but completely shielded by the covered way and glacis. On the SW corner, the covered way goes out into a large redan that mounted a number of guns as a water battery. The rest of the main armament was on the terreplein, with howitzers in casemates in the angles of the bastions covering the ditch. The ditch was also covered by many musketry loopholes in the escarp wall. Today, there's only 1 gun at all, a 24pdr on a fortress pivot mounting on one of the bastions. Only the pivots and pits remain for the other guns, both original and added.

Taking the ferry across the bay mouth brings you to Ft. Gaines, which is owned by the town of Dauphin Island. It's in VERY good shape, and also more in original condition, although it also has some Endicott Board updates (which are holding up better than at Ft. Morgan). This fort wasn't so much involved in the naval battle but did take a few hits, some of which are still visible.

The most interesting thing about Ft. Gaines, however, is that it's got probably the only example of the short-lived "Carnot wall" in the Western Hemisphere, and maybe the last left in the world. This fort was built in 1821, just before Carnot's ideas were discredited by tests in Britain :).

See the other attachment for the landward wall of this fort. What you see there isn't the escarp wall, but the Carnot wall with its musketry loopholes. Originally, the ditch and glacis were built up outside to the same height as this wall, but today little of the glacis remains (it was just loose beach sand). Also note that the "bastions" are more like caponiers, with room on top for only 1 cannon (the one in the photo has an Endicott Board observation post on it now). The actual escarp wall was about 20 feet inside the Carnot wall. Its vertical brick face as buried in sand left at its angle of repose, sloping down to the bottom of the inside of the Carnot wall. The escarp and Carnot walls were only connected at the corners, where narrow structures spanned the gap to the bastions/caponiers. Howitzers and musketry ports in these narrow structures covered the space between the walls, but the fort's main armament was on the terreplein all the way around. All in all, a very strange and unsuccessful design :).

Today, the area between the walls on the landward faces has somewhat silted up with blowing sand, which now comes up to the bottom of the musketry ports in the Carnot wall. I bet the troops stationed here back in the day spent a lot of time shoveling sand out of this space :). On the seaward side, the space was completely filled to the brim on purpose, as part of the installation of disappearing guns. The sea also nearly laps the seaward faces, so the fort presents its Carnot wall completely unprotected (although it's the face of a wall over 20 feet thick now). I figure originally the ditch and glacis continued around these sides, but that this part of the land has since washed away (the whole of Dauphin Island is just 1 huge sandbar). Each bastion/caponier (except the one shown in the pic) still has a 32pdr pivot gun, and they still work. They fire them periodically, but unfortunately not while I was there :(.

Besides being in better shape and more interesting than Ft. Morgan, Ft. Gaines also has a better museum. Included in the collection are an anchor from USS Hartford, Farragut's flagship, and even the part of the deck he was supposedly standing on when he said "Damn the torpedoes!". The wreck of USS Tecumseh, sunk by one of these torpedoes, still lies near Ft. Morgan, marked with a buoy. Ft. Morgan also has several large fragments of a burst gun. Although there's no sign now (there used to be) telling what they were part of, they appear to be from a large Rodman smoothbore (based on the teeth cast into the cascabel), probably of 15".

Anyway, Mobile has a lot to offer folks with an interest in naval history. If you're in the area, I recommend seeing the sights. It takes a full day, however, to see it all, including travel from the BB to the forts and back to town. I recommend going down the west side of the bay to Dauphin Island as that's a quick, non-stop trip, whereas the east road is stoplights all the way and takes about 1.5 hours. Also, it pays to get in line for the ferry well ahead of time, because if you miss it, the next one won't leave for 1.5 hours. See its web site for a schedule of departure times from each side.

Daedalus
03 Aug 07, 01:22
I like you have been on both many times. I first went on back in the 60's. And the sub was still in the water. You could look through the scope and see ships in the bay. The last time I was on the Sub the scope was put down.

The BB is great. It was the first ship I went on as a kid and I will never forget the day I spent on the ship.

We took our family there a couple years ago and had a good time, but they do not let you go in as much of the ship as you could back when I first went on. But it is still a great trip.

Bullethead
03 Aug 07, 21:06
I like you have been on both many times. I first went on back in the 60's. And the sub was still in the water. You could look through the scope and see ships in the bay. The last time I was on the Sub the scope was put down.

The scope's up today, but it no longer turns or zooms. It's pointed out into the bay, but not at anything, not even a buoy. IIRC, when I 1st went in about 1972, the scope still turned and the zoom still worked, but that barrels of booze ago so I could well be wrong :).

We took our family there a couple years ago and had a good time, but they do not let you go in as much of the ship as you could back when I first went on. But it is still a great trip.

As of last week, you could see all you wanted to see, although that wasn't nearly the full ship :). The weather decks are all open, as is the forward superstructure up to the pilothouse at the 08 level (about 3/4 the way to the top of the tower). Below decks, you can go from end to end, although only on what I believe was the 3rd deck (USN parlance), as in the 3rd below from the top and 1st below the main armored deck. At both ends and the middle, you can go higher and lower to a considerable extent. This gets you into one of the engine rooms and also the shell handling room of a 16" turret, from which you can look down on the powder handling room and magazine doors, but can't get down there.

More parts of the ship are in good shape than this, however. At both ends, there are large compartments reserved for overnight guests, usually scout troops. These areas include not only bunks but galleys and heads. It's similar on the Fletcher-class DD in Baton Rouge near where I live.

Daedalus
03 Aug 07, 23:50
You where right on the scope! It did work back then, when I first started going on the ship.
We would track ships in the Bay and act like we where at war under the sea lol.
The zoom even worked. One time a few years back when I was there , a note was on the scope about them taking out the insides for something that needed it , but I do not remember what or why.
In the 60's you could go all over the BB's but when I went back in the 70's they had setup the ship about like you see it now. And you could not go into all the Rooms.
I remember when they had the Kingfisher aircraft up on the ship like it was ready to launch. When I was there a couple years ago it was not on the ship.
You could also turn the turrets on the stern of the ship when I first went on the ship And the ranging scope in the turret still worked.
These are things that I will never forget, as a kid it was wonder world for me. We spent a lot of time on them.
We used to go on the USS Texas also. And at Galveston Island Texas we used to go on the Destroyer escort and the Sub that was there at the bay out by where the Oil company docks where. I do not remember the name of the Sub or ship though. I would drop by there when I worked for the Oil Company's . My Wife and I lived on the Island.
Those where the days that is for sure. :)

The Confederate Airforce hanger was just down from our house. Now that was awesome. I use to watch them fly the planes and test them. I do not know how many they have flying now?.

Rhetor
04 Aug 07, 05:49
I do hope that some day I will see a battleship with my own eyes.

My brother's company has sent him a couple of times to the US for a few months. Once he phoned me and said that he was on some big warship named "Massachusetts", and asked what kind of a ship it was:mad::blab::freak::D

Bullethead
04 Aug 07, 14:13
I remember when they had the Kingfisher aircraft up on the ship like it was ready to launch. When I was there a couple years ago it was not on the ship.

Yeah, it was getting kinda corroding away (aluminum doesn't rust, it exfoliates, but the result on the metal is basically the same) in the salt air, so they moved it into the hangar with the rest of the airplane collection. It's still in there today, one of the few back on display. However, it's still not in very good shape. Both wingtip floats are gone, the tip of the right stabilizer is bent, and there are a bunch of large (as in football-size) dents all along the leading edge of the left wing.

We used to go on the USS Texas also. And at Galveston Island Texas we used to go on the Destroyer escort and the Sub that was there at the bay out by where the Oil company docks where. I do not remember the name of the Sub or ship though.

I haven't been to either of these places since the late 90s. At that time, Texas had just come out of a major overhaul in drydock so was in excellent shape. The ships in Seawolf Park in Galveston, however, were in VERY sad shape :(.

Both Galveston ships are important to preserve. The DE is IIRC one of only 2 left out of all the many hundreds built, and the only one with its type of propulsion system (there were several types). I forget the name, but the sub is Cavalla, which sunk the IJN carrier Shokaku, among other things. She was in post-war form with the "Guppy" mods of new conning tower, etc. Both ships are on land, the sub on stands and the DE buried to the waterline in concrete. However, both were VERY MUCH rusted out and falling apart. The sub was completely closed and the DE had only a couple rooms open. There were huge holes in both of them :(. I've heard they've fixed these ships up since then, but how much I can't say. Certainly, there'd be very little original metal left in any areas open to the public now.

The Confederate Airforce hanger was just down from our house. Now that was awesome. I use to watch them fly the planes and test them. I do not know how many they have flying now?.

The CAF bowed to political correctness and regrettably changed its name to "Commemorative Air Force" :(. It also moved to the Midland-Odessa airport where the climate is drier, like in the desert boneyards. They still have many dozens of flyable planes, not only there but all over the country. And they're getting more all the time. When I flew into this airport earlier this year, they had an Avro Shackleton, of all things, out on the ramp, which I hadn't seen there before.

Bullethead
04 Aug 07, 14:23
I do hope that some day I will see a battleship with my own eyes.

On your side of the ocean, you can dive on 4 of the Konig BBs in Scapa Flow, and the remains of Thuringen aren't far off the French coast somewhere. The wreck is above water and visible from the beach, or so the photos indicate. It's only part of the ship, however, and is all torn up from bombs and shells. I guess you'll have to come over here to see one in good condition, but we've got a bunch of them. Old Texas plus members of all 3 post-Treaty classes.

Daedalus
04 Aug 07, 15:22
Yep the sub in Sea Wolf park was in real bad shape the last time I went there. I think it was in 01 in march when I was there. I took my son in law to see it. They let us go in but it was in so bad shape that some of the ladders going up to the sub where closed.

We went in and you could go through the sub end to end, and some of the lights where working on the control board, but the hull of the sub was in a shape that was so bad that you could fall through in some places.
The man in charge was tell us that they had parts from another sub that was in a wrecking yard that was being sent to them so they could rebuild the sub. They had just started work on it when we where there.
The DDE was another story, as he said that it was thought to be to far gone to work with. And it may be taken apart. I do not know what happened to the DDE as I have not been back there yet. I felt so bad for the way they had let the ships go to waist that I did not want to see it again. :(

One good thing is that they keep the Texas in great shape. It would not take long and that old girl would be at sea again and ready to go. Now that would be a site to behold.
I wish that they would keep a BB,s in seaworthy shape so it could be sailed about like they do the Ironsides. But I guess they do not want to spend the money to keep up our Naval past!
When I first saw the DDE it was still in the water, So sometime after the last time I saw the ship was put into the concrete pad , and then I saw it in 01 that is the way it was.
What is funny is that SeaWolf Park was a great park in the late 70,s , but I guess the budget went to hell in the 90's. When I was there it was like a ghost park, with almost no one there. In fact I asked some one on the Island about it and they did not even know it was there lol.

The park it's self was all grown up and looked in great dis repair.
I have not been back to there sense.

Now Pensacola Naval air Station was a great place to go to see the aircraft of the world and the Navies. There where aircraft from before WWI all the way to now. Some of them where so rare that the one on display was the only known one. There where some later WWI Japanese warplanes that where only one of a kind to see. And they where really good aircraft , most where copied from our aircraft that had been shot down. But it was too late in the war by the time they where made and had no affect. It said on the plac that they had almost run out of stuff to build them, and that the government was striping the people of the things they needed to build them . Pots pans just about everything that one could think of.

Some of the pre WWI and WWI models where awesome to see. When I looked at them it was amazing to see how the pilot fit into the craft lol.
Also they had a airship that they where getting ready to restore and put on display. I want to go and see that. We got to go into the gondola and that was amazing to see. It was built out of real lightweight aluminum. One would think that you would step through the decks when you walked , but it was strong. Well some day I will go back and see again!

What would be great is a place where they had Warships from all era's where you could spend a day or two going over them, as it is now you have to go all over the country to see many of them.

Zakalwe
04 Aug 07, 19:47
I was aboard of BB Iowa when she was visiting "Kiel Week" (the biggest sailing event in the world and the biggest party in Northern Europe) in the early 80ies. It was an incredible sight as she was anchored in the Kiel Bight and we had to go there with a little cutter. Very impressive. One could only imagine how a whole fleet of these dinosaurs must have looked like.

Z.

Daedalus
04 Aug 07, 21:58
I was aboard of BB Iowa when she was visiting "Kiel Week" (the biggest sailing event in the world and the biggest party in Northern Europe) in the early 80ies. It was an incredible sight as she was anchored in the Kiel Bight and we had to go there with a little cutter. Very impressive. One could only imagine how a whole fleet of these dinosaurs must have looked like.

Z.

It would have been quite a sight that is for sure!
I can only Imagine what they would have looked like at full speed with all the smoke coming out of the smoke stacks. I would love to see that if it was possible. But I am sure it is not.

Bullethead
05 Aug 07, 14:55
I felt so bad for the way they had let the ships go to waist that I did not want to see it again. :(

Same here. It was way too much like going to a VA nursing home or hospital..... I suppose we should be more saddened by how we treat the people who did the deeds that made the hardware famous, but all we care about is the hardware. Maybe it's because we don't want to face our own ends and try instead to give people symbolic immortality by preserving something more durable than flesh and bone, without having to look at the wheelchairs, oxygen tubes, and bedpans that we'll be using ourselves ere long. Oh well....

Sorry for that digression. Back to the topic...

I wish that they would keep a BB,s in seaworthy shape so it could be sailed about like they do the Ironsides. But I guess they do not want to spend the money to keep up our Naval past!

Who knows? I haven't kept tabs on what they did with the Iowas, except the Big Mo is at Pearl Harbor. Did they put any back in mothballs or are they all open to the public now?

One thing I do know, however, is that in some cases even ships on display are still owned by Uncle Sam. For instance, in Baton Rouge near where I live is a Fletcher-class DD, USS Kidd. I helped restore this ship to mint WW2 condition 20-odd years ago, and she's still kept up very well today. But she's still USN property and is, thanks to being in such good shape, up near the very top of the list of ships that would be recalled to duty if needed. The main guns still work--they shoot blanks with them on special occoasions, and the engineering plant still runs. A few hours with a cutting torch, a load of fuel and stores, and then, if the Mississippi River was high enough, she could steam away.

Now Pensacola Naval air Station was a great place to go to see the aircraft of the world and the Navies.

Yes, this is definitely the best airplane museum on the planet. Not only do they have just about every USN plane ever from 1st to current, but they've got at least some examples of other people's stuff, and it's all in very good shape. But the best thing is, there are no ropes around the vast majority of them. You can walk right up and touch them (except for a few that hang from the ceiling or are in glass cases).

NAS Pensacola also has a couple of very interesting old forts near the airplane museum. They were built by the Spanish in colonial days. One is for defending the harbor and the other defends the land side of the coast defense fort.

There's a bunch of very cool stuff to see along that stretch of I-10. Starting at the LA/MS line, there's the Stennis Space Center where they build, repair, and test space shuttle engines. There are some cool shipyards in Mississippi. Then there's Mobile as noted above, and between that and Pensacola are several more coastal forts. But more interestingly there's Eglin Air Force base where they test all their bombs and missiles, and that has a very cool museum, too.

Bullethead
05 Aug 07, 15:00
I was aboard of BB Iowa when she was visiting "Kiel Week"

You lucky bastid!

I greatly regret never having been around these ships when they were firing their big guns. When I was in Desert Storm, they shelled the Persian Gulf coastal areas, but my unit was way inland, near the kinks in the Kuwait border, so I missed it :(.

Bullethead
05 Aug 07, 15:05
It would have been quite a sight that is for sure!
I can only Imagine what they would have looked like at full speed with all the smoke coming out of the smoke stacks. I would love to see that if it was possible. But I am sure it is not.

Well, you might be able to get a good idea of it in the Jutland game.... :D

Daedalus
05 Aug 07, 15:17
Yes I went into the forts along the coast. One I was in had a tunnel under the bay that went across to the other fort. But I can't remember what bay lol.

It was amazing to think they dug them by hand and did it with out drowning.

I have been on quite a few war ships from WWII and WWI over the years. There used to be a lot more of them it seems, When i was a kid they had them in port for people to visit a lot. But now it seems that they are not around. I guess they have been put back for use if we need them.

But I do miss getting to visit them.
The NAS is the place I tell everyone to go. You are right, I do not think there is a place anywhere that is close to what they have done there.

I for one am really glad Norm is making these sims for us to use, it is about the only way we can come close to living history!
When Jutland comes out I will be trapped on that game for weeks and months as I have RJW, The more I play it the more I want to play! If a person is one that likes Naval Warfare then these are the best on the planet. And as someone who has played sim's from almost the first when they came out I feel like I can say this with truth.
One can hardly wait to see what come out next after each addition,And I for one am going to promote these games as much as I can, as I have done RJW. I tell everyone about this game that I think will give it a try. So far I have got quite a few people to start playing sim's by getting them to give RJW a try.

Daedalus
05 Aug 07, 15:23
OH as to the people who where in the wars in the past and present I do support them. And I do go to everything I can that helps with that.

It is even more up front with us at home with my son fighting in Iraq , I talk to him and his buddies every week when they can. I find it amazing that so many of the men and women over there have no one contacting them from there family's . So they call me Pop and I guess I am there fill in dad. :)
When they come online I spend a few hours talking to all the soldiers in his unit , and getting things that they want or need and sending it them. It helps alot as they have some contact with home. Helps keep them up and feeling like some one cares.

Rhetor
05 Aug 07, 18:29
I was aboard of BB Iowa when she was visiting "Kiel Week" (the biggest sailing event in the world and the biggest party in Northern Europe) in the early 80ies. It was an incredible sight as she was anchored in the Kiel Bight and we had to go there with a little cutter. Very impressive. One could only imagine how a whole fleet of these dinosaurs must have looked like.

Z.

Lucky You!

That was surely one of the last chances in history to see a battleship in Europe. I can't believe the British haven't preserved any of their famous battleships. HMS Warspite would be the obvious one to keep. She was so tough that she wouldn't let anyone to tow her to a scrapyard :-D

The biggest warship I have seen was HMS "Invincible" when she was visiting Gdynia a few years ago. One of her sister ships was in Gdynia this year, but this time, probably due to the terrorist threat, noone was allowed on the pier.

Zakalwe
05 Aug 07, 20:44
Yeah,

could be. And it wasn`t a museum back than, but on full duty.We (me and a friend who was as nuts for warships as me, we were around 16 or 17 years old) had a nice guided tour around the ship, but unfortuntaly neither of us had a camera. So I can use only my memory. IIRC the crewmember showed us a little scratch on one of the big turrets, he said this was from a bombshell, don`t recall if it was from WWII or Vietnam.

As I`m on holiday from tomorrow, I`m going to visit the "Laboe Ehrenmal" again. It`s a memorial for all sailors lost at sea.

They have great models of the different German Navies there too. I`ll take my camera with me this time.

http://www.museen-sh.de/ml/inst.php?s=2&t=1&sparte=museen&pid=&inst=24

Not far away is the "ehrenmal Möltenort", a memorial for all German U-Boot crews lost in WWI +II. All names of the crews are on placed on a wall.

http://www.uboat-memorial.org/en/index.htm

I`ll post some pics here.

Z.

Rhetor
06 Aug 07, 10:47
Yeah,

could be. And it wasn`t a museum back than, but on full duty.We (me and a friend who was as nuts for warships as me, we were around 16 or 17 years old) had a nice guided tour around the ship, but unfortuntaly neither of us had a camera. So I can use only my memory. IIRC the crewmember showed us a little scratch on one of the big turrets, he said this was from a bombshell, don`t recall if it was from WWII or Vietnam.

As I`m on holiday from tomorrow, I`m going to visit the "Laboe Ehrenmal" again. It`s a memorial for all sailors lost at sea.

They have great models of the different German Navies there too. I`ll take my camera with me this time.

http://www.museen-sh.de/ml/inst.php?s=2&t=1&sparte=museen&pid=&inst=24

Not far away is the "ehrenmal Möltenort", a memorial for all German U-Boot crews lost in WWI +II. All names of the crews are on placed on a wall.

http://www.uboat-memorial.org/en/index.htm

I`ll post some pics here.

Z.

Can't wait to see your photos.

Next to Panzermuseum Münster these are the places I want to visit when I go to Germany.