Dien Bien Phu 54

[jjjeko]

Ciao guys
I am looking for some pointers for this scenario
played it twice as the Viet but I am getting nowhere...

The first time I purposely followed a very conservative plan, proceeding methodically toward Claudine, as expected by the time I got there my forces were exhausted and a couple of well time counter attacks got the the best of them...

The second time I followed what I was considering a sound plan:
1 Bypass Beatrice and Dominique
2 Storm Eliane from the east and drive to the east of Claludine
toward the airfield
3 cut out the forces present in Isabelle with some of the forces coming from the south, sending the rest of the south forces to the South of Claudine
4 Position the west forces on the west of Claudine
5 Sweep down from the north with the bulk of my forces through Gabrielle, Annamarie, Hugette, Francoise and close the siege of Claudine.

All went as planned:

Isabelle "Flag" has been taken with an encircling maneuver with French forces in the other two fortified hexes.
South and west forces have even managed to conquer the south most hex of Claudine (without entering it)
Beatrice, Dominque and Hugette are isolated and not supplied.
Gabrielle, Annamarie, and Francoise fell in sequence after having been encircled.

Problem is that the isolated French units, even if out of supply are in "Green" status, (the problem is in particular Hugette, which prevents me from moving "safely" toward the airfield).

So I am stuck once more at the gate of Claudine, my troops around Claudine exhausted and easy prey of French counter attacks coming from Claudine.

Was my plan too cautious? should I have just run for the airfield and forget all the rest? Should I have just channeled all the north troops to the est, bypassing everything north of Claudine?

As a side note:
Viets are laking HQs
1MP artilleries are a PITA, (especially the ones entering from the south, who risk not taking a single shot to Claudine)

Any insight appreciated

Ciao ciao

JJ

[L`zard]

Greetings JJ, and welcome!

Hope your 'english' is good, as I've got no italian at all, eh?

I'm by no means a master of ToaW, but like Dien Bien Phu as the next to last 'siege' scenario of the 20th century.

Re: DBP scenario itself:

Could you be a little more expansive in explaining your games?

ie: "So I am stuck once more at the gate of Claudine, my troops around Claudine exhausted and easy prey of French counter attacks coming from Claudine."

This would be turn ???
Your player settings would be ???
I assume from your post that your running against the PO, yes/no?
-------------------------------

Have you run the scenario as 'puter vs puter' just to see what happens?

Also, you may wish to view the 'attach/manage attachments' FAQ in order to show us (graphically) what your talking about, eh? It's not that hard after the first or second try...:lier:
-------------------------------

In so far as the VM side of this scenario goes, I'd have hoped you've read the history of the battle beyond the developer's notes.

ToaW doesn't really like the VM tactic of digging trenches to shorten the above ground movement of infantry (one reason you'll find so few scenarios covering this battle- time and scale).

To me, the strongest attribute ( and also historically the strongest) is the VM artty, which in the absence of trenches, must be used to 'dig out' the French positions: ie; no advance befor turn 3 on an assault scale, eh?

Initially, get your inf close to the french and dig in (possibly breaking down units where neccesary) just to constrain the Fr. movement. Bring up your 'ranged' artty and start a constant bombardment.

You may wish to 'search' the forum here for threads concerning same, or PM me, as I've got some links to various 'articles' that might help.

Basically, it seems to me that you have done what the VM did historically in the opening days (ie: try to rush using infantry) but the VM stood back after initial defeats such as you describe, and used thier artty to weaken the Fr. until a final assault was possible. (this pertains to the final part of the battle).

Something in a 'ten turns of combat' primer will help you considerably, methinx, ;) ............Got Links, eh? Will post same.......

Yeah, the learning curve for this game is brutal, but worth the time, LOL!
-----------

If nothing else, my post should bring the 'Master-Class' players out with something that will help!

[L`zard]

A list of pertinant URL's for your edification: hope some help, and know that some are 'out of date' ie: obsolete, eh?

http://www.warfarehq.com/articles/toaw_articles/climbingtoaw.shtml
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/Another-View-of-the-Loss-Settings.php
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/Ignore-and-Minimize-Loss-Settings.php
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/McBride-ten-tactical-rounds.php
http://www.warfarehq.com/articles/toaw_articles/toaw_combat_phases.shtml
http://www.theblitz.org/articles/strategy_articles.php?id=45


Good luck with your game, there are many of us that will help, eh?

[BlackLotusZero]

Thanks for the links :)

[L`zard]

Thanks for the links :)

Happy reading, many of these have helped me, eh?

Feel free to ask any questions, for if nothing else, questions will garner answers from better players than me, dig?

[BlackLotusZero]

Happy reading, many of these have helped me, eh?

Feel free to ask any questions, for if nothing else, questions will garner answers from better players than me, dig?

Thanks :thumup:

[jjjeko]

Ok L'zard,
trying answering your questions:
Advanced settings, against PO,
I have not run it under PO vs PO, thanks for the tip, it just escaped me
I try to attach beginning of turn 9 and beginning of turn 10 images
I tried to use arty as massive fire concentration to support attack, not for the softening, in any case it went to no supply very quickly.
IMHO tactical turns are less important, with 1MP arty how many rounds could you expect? Furthermore I tend to believe it is necessary to mass forces (and arty) on one single strong point at the time, so the benefits of several tactical rounds are lessened.
Now the images..., I had to resize them to fit the requirements
All is fine until I get close to the North wall of Claudine.
then hell breaks loose and the French just annihilate my Viets.
:-(

[Silvanski]

Square counters, nice ;-)

[L`zard]

JJ;

Well, I loaded the scen up, and can see where some of the problems are, ie: VM formations are all on 'internal support' including the arrty. :OHNO: supposedly, this would have been done to show that the VM forces didn't have 'radio' communications to coordinate their attacks......what actually occurs is that none of your formations will 'fully' support other unit attacks, which in this case means (considering that there are so many different formations, even tho this is a low density population scen) that they just don't play well with others even when it's themselves, LOL!

If your playing this one just to learn the game itself, I'd suggest one of the tutorial scens, as IMO this scenario hasn't really been optimised for toaw 3, eh? Or try playing one of the 'optimised' scens from the WW1 pack that has 'new' notes attached (indicating that the designer/modder has reworked the scenario to obtain the best effects of ToaW 3).

Off hand, I'd say you would be doing yourself a great service by joining in on the 'new players workshop' and trying the 'road to Rimini' scen.

Just because there are more units, doesn't mean the game is really any harder, eh? While a given turn may take longer to execute, it's basically the same as a 'low pop density' scen.

Like I say, I'm not Einstein here, LOL, so you're gonna want someone that 'wins a lot' to help mentor you, :clown:

Sorry I'm not more help, but the PO lunched on my @ too, :shy: !

[jjjeko]

Thanks L'zard
I have seen that they are on internal support, but you have to do with what you got.
In any case, at least initially, I have tried to stick group groups together, hoping to at least minimise penalties due to internal support only
I might try to "camp" for a few turns, having my troops recovering and artys resupplying, and then launch a subsequent attack directly to Claudine.
I don not consider myself an experienced player, but i think I have the basic "digested", so to speak.
As far as personal taste I do not like crowded scenarios, where you end up micromanaging units...

[L`zard]

Well, good luck to you, JJ, maybe someone who has his hat screwed down tight will come along with some serious help, eh?

:D :OHNO: :shy: :paperbag:

[a white rabbit]

JJ;

Well, I loaded the scen up, and can see where some of the problems are, ie: VM formations are all on 'internal support' including the arrty. :OHNO: supposedly, this would have been done to show that the VM forces didn't have 'radio' communications to coordinate their attacks......what actually occurs is that none of your formations will 'fully' support other unit attacks, which in this case means (considering that there are so many different formations, even tho this is a low density population scen) that they just don't play well with others even when it's themselves, LOL!

If your playing this one just to learn the game itself, I'd suggest one of the tutorial scens, as IMO this scenario hasn't really been optimised for toaw 3, eh? Or try playing one of the 'optimised' scens from the WW1 pack that has 'new' notes attached (indicating that the designer/modder has reworked the scenario to obtain the best effects of ToaW 3).

Off hand, I'd say you would be doing yourself a great service by joining in on the 'new players workshop' and trying the 'road to Rimini' scen.

Just because there are more units, doesn't mean the game is really any harder, eh? While a given turn may take longer to execute, it's basically the same as a 'low pop density' scen.

Like I say, I'm not Einstein here, LOL, so you're gonna want someone that 'wins a lot' to help mentor you, :clown:

Sorry I'm not more help, but the PO lunched on my @ too, :shy: !

..second prob is the artillery with 1 hex move, you can direct-support fire on the first combat round only, after that you must use tactical reserve until the final combat round, then you go ignore losses and direct-support on some, leaving others as tac-res..

..and even tho other's may not like it, to win, you have to divide attacking units to ensure those flank attacks**, re-unite after combat. Frontal attacks on the french are suicide..

..**some call them ant-attacks, i say valid tactics

[Veers]

..second prob is the artillery with 1 hex move, you can direct-support fire on the first combat round only, after that you must use tactical reserve until the final combat round, then you go ignore losses and direct-support on some, leaving others as tac-res..

..and even tho other's may not like it, to win, you have to divide attacking units to ensure those flank attacks**, re-unite after combat. Frontal attacks on the french are suicide..

..**some call them ant-attacks, i say valid tactics
If you're dividing those units so you can get the flank attack that is different than using 'ant' attacks for other reasons.

[jlbetin]

You may have contact with "boonierat", he is found of all vietnam wars and has a good knowledge about them.

He is member of this forum send him a PM.

Do not forget it is holidays time in France he may not be responsive for a while

Der WanderGoBetween
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