View Full Version : March 1945
Mark Stevens
22 Jul 07, 13:35
Last call for submarine U-257 leaving from Hamburg for Argentina.
Last call for submarine U-257 leaving from Hamburg for Argentina.
...by the looksof it, you;ve...lost Hamburg...:laugh:
Looks like you've already pulled most of the units, that you can, out of the line in the east.
Are the units fighting in Romania and southern Germany worth their salt, or have those fronts been stripped, as well?
Last call for submarine U-257 leaving from Hamburg for Argentina.
This goes to show that holding onto Berlin is possible. Perhaps victory should be determined by who holds Berlin by turn 305 (or whatever turn actually coincides with the actual end of the war)?
The rest of the post-305 game could be left in, but only to be played 'for fun'.
This goes to show that holding onto Berlin is possible. Perhaps victory should be determined by who holds Berlin by turn 305 (or whatever turn actually coincides with the actual end of the war)?
The rest of the post-305 game could be left in, but only to be played 'for fun'.
lol! I misread this and thought you were saying that the first 304 turns could be left in and played just for fun, but the real excitement would just be who could take berlin on turn 305.
Its an interesting concept for determining the winner, but I think that victory points is better in a scenario like this, because of the possibility for unhistoric things to happen - eg have you lost if you lose Berlin by turn 305 but Italy is untouched and you own most of russia still?
Its an interesting concept for determining the winner, but I think that victory points is better in a scenario like this, because of the possibility for unhistoric things to happen - eg have you lost if you lose Berlin by turn 305 but Italy is untouched and you own most of russia still?
I agreee, but the problem with the current VP system is that for the German player to retain enough territory to keep even a draw is nearly impossible.
If the win/loss condition is Berlin, and not the VPs, it gives the Axis player a reason to continue past his failing to take out the USSR, as he can cling onto the hope of holding onto Berlin past the historical date.
Currently the game begins with a draw, with the Axis controling Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Finland, the Balts, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Iran, and Libya. This means that even if the German player played well enough to retain all of Italy and Germany, by the end, he would still loose.
I wonder if its possible to increase the VPs for key home german and italian cities to the point where you can cling to a draw by holding enough of the fatherland by the end of the game?
I wonder if its possible to increase the VPs for key home german and italian cities to the point where you can cling to a draw by holding enough of the fatherland by the end of the game?
That's the other option, and one which I'm willing to entertain.
The ony question is where to draw the line. Does the Axis player win if he keeps all of Germany and Italy.
Does he only get a draw, etc, etc.
Yeah I think its worth thinking about too. I imagine that if someone held all of Germany and Italy they should do a bit better than a draw - ie a MV? So maybe that would be a starting point. And I guess you should probably have to lose pretty much everything to get on overwhelming defeat.
Of course the other thing is what should the end date is. Holding Germany to the historic end of the war is a far cry different to holding it into July of the same year.
Yeah I think its worth thinking about too. I imagine that if someone held all of Germany and Italy they should do a bit better than a draw - ie a MV? So maybe that would be a starting point. And I guess you should probably have to lose pretty much everything to get on overwhelming defeat.
Yeah.
Of course the other thing is what should the end date is. Holding Germany to the historic end of the war is a far cry different to holding it into July of the same year.
Historic End,
leehunt27
30 Jul 07, 14:33
Are you seeing most games end with the Allies getting to Berlin and very few with the Axis winning? I know for Matrix's War in the Pacific the Japanese player "wins" if he loses in 1946 instead of 1945, or has so blunted the Allies early in the game that the USA gives up by 1943-44... Have many Axis players completely dominated the map?
In my game against Serge he overexpanded as the Axis into Turkey, Iraq and missed the Barbarossa option. So now in early 1943 the Russians have overrun Scandinavia and are moving into Poland. My opponent has played well against the western Allies but without a Barbarossa attack has had to face an intact and ever increasing Red Army. But to actually stave off the Allies till after May 1945 is all but impossible.... of course, now watch me bungle my offensive and he wins :)
Are you seeing most games end with the Allies getting to Berlin and very few with the Axis winning? I know for Matrix's War in the Pacific the Japanese player "wins" if he loses in 1946 instead of 1945, or has so blunted the Allies early in the game that the USA gives up by 1943-44... Have many Axis players completely dominated the map?
In my game against Serge he overexpanded as the Axis into Turkey, Iraq and missed the Barbarossa option. So now in early 1943 the Russians have overrun Scandinavia and are moving into Poland. My opponent has played well against the western Allies but without a Barbarossa attack has had to face an intact and ever increasing Red Army. But to actually stave off the Allies till after May 1945 is all but impossible.... of course, now watch me bungle my offensive and he wins :)
We used to see the Axis win more often than the Allies, with 'winning' constituting the Axis capture of the Soviet Union. Since then the balance has improved such that the Allies and Axis 'win' more equally.
I think I have only heard of an Axis player holding onto Berlin past the histoirc end date once. Of course others-Mark, Shane, Raver-have been around longer and may have heard of more.
Thats a fair assessment I think. I would also add that often when playing germany for the first time, people get beaten quite badly and conclude that the allies have a big advantage. But that definately evens out once you have a bit of experience under your belt.
leehunt27
31 Jul 07, 10:10
That makes sense Raver. I think Serge and I will play Aflame again after this current round and play the same sides rather than switch. It will probably be a much more grueling fight with the Axis not suffering the greater consequences of rookie mistakes. My rookie mistakes as the Allies were mainly getting mauled in Finland and losing Gibralter and the Med. Both mistakes easy to recover from. Not having a Barbarossa for the Axis player seems EXTREMELY difficult to recover from.
Glad the game balance is getting better, i'm really enjoying the incredible replayability and depth of this scenario!
Panzerpelle
31 Jul 07, 10:23
My longest game ever...353 turns against Mark! enjoyed every year of it...:) start was 2002 september 21st and end was 2004 june 18th. I post a end game pic...
My longest game ever...353 turns against Mark! enjoyed every year of it...:) start was 2002 september 21st and end was 2004 june 18th. I post a end game pic...
That's amazing...I'm shocked that the Axis player (which one of you was Axis) was able to hold onto that much territory after failing to take out the Soviet Union.
Panzerpelle
31 Jul 07, 14:17
That's amazing...I'm shocked that the Axis player (which one of you was Axis) was able to hold onto that much territory after failing to take out the Soviet Union.
My humbleness forbids me to say who played the axis...
My humbleness forbids me to say who played the axis...
:laugh: :laugh:
How did you not capture Moscow and Stalingrad, then?
Silvanski
31 Jul 07, 17:34
nice straight line on the eastern front
nice straight line on the eastern front
Yeah, with the old flanking rules its hard to hold anything but a straight line. It will be nice to see Ralph's 'new' flanking rules.
leehunt27
01 Aug 07, 14:54
Great job to the Axis player!!! I'm impressed. I always feel like when the axis stops attacking they lose but not the case here!
What are the new flanking rules? To reduce the flanking bonus or increase it? It is tricky keeping the straight lines going...
Great job to the Axis player!!! I'm impressed. I always feel like when the axis stops attacking they lose but not the case here!
What are the new flanking rules? To reduce the flanking bonus or increase it? It is tricky keeping the straight lines going...
It has to do with making horizontal lines as easy to maintain as vertical lines.
Something to do with a hex (D) that has three sides attacked (F, G, and E) but has friendly troops guarding the other two (C and B) not facing the flanking penalty as it would with the current rules.
AB
CDE
FG
This is only if memory serves and I have understood what I have heard correctly. I could be wrong.
Ralph's direct quote:
"It's really pretty simple, and designed to fix the problem of horizontal fronts.
Look at the below diagram.
:cool:...:cool:
...:nuts:
:mad:...:mad:
...:mad:
The problem is that if you have a straight line on defense, with the current rules,you can still flank :nuts: , even though it makes no sense logically.
The new rules say basically that if you have a unit that has someone covering both your flanks, or if they're otherwise covered (Lake, Border, etc.) then you can't be flanked.
He still has 3 adjoining hexes he can occupy, so you can outnumber him, but you can't flank him because of the way that the hex grid is laid out.
If he can attack you from opposite sides, you are still flanked:hissyfit:, even if you are otherwise surrounded by friendly units.:(
That's all it is.:eek: " Ralph Trickey
Basically, it's a 'fix' for the fact that the game is played on hexes rather than a 'point' map similar to RTS games.
Hexes tend to distort the actual map terrain because there is a grain to the map yielding a greater movement along certain axes.....or is that axii......
Anyroad, this is a fix to ensure that the direction of attack no longer gives an advantage in some cases, eh?
Dm, Veers, this really IS hard to explain, LOL!
Ralph's direct quote:
"It's really pretty simple, and designed to fix the problem of horizontal fronts.
Look at the below diagram.
:cool:...:cool:
...:nuts:
:mad:...:mad:
...:mad:
The problem is that if you have a straight line on defense, with the current rules,you can still flank :nuts: , even though it makes no sense logically.
The new rules say basically that if you have a unit that has someone covering both your flanks, or if they're otherwise covered (Lake, Border, etc.) then you can't be flanked.
He still has 3 adjoining hexes he can occupy, so you can outnumber him, but you can't flank him because of the way that the hex grid is laid out.
If he can attack you from opposite sides, you are still flanked:hissyfit:, even if you are otherwise surrounded by friendly units.:(
That's all it is.:eek: " Ralph Trickey
Basically, it's a 'fix' for the fact that the game is played on hexes rather than a 'point' map similar to RTS games.
Hexes tend to distort the actual map terrain because there is a grain to the map yielding a greater movement along certain axes.....or is that axii......
Anyroad, this is a fix to ensure that the direction of attack no longer gives an advantage in some cases, eh?
Dm, Veers, this really IS hard to explain, LOL!
Naw, makes perfect sense, and is exactly how I thought it was. I may have just failed to convey my thoughts properly.
Negatory, Wyatt, you had it fine, eh?
Just thought I'd bump my post count, :clown:
'Sides, Ralph had prettier pictures................:laugh:
Myself, I'll be curious to see what (if any) difference it makes, at least until all the 'designer sorts' get used to the new patch and use this thing during map lay-outs, eh?
Liz
Negatory, Wyatt, you had it fine, eh?
Just thought I'd bump my post count, :clown:
'Sides, Ralph had prettier pictures................:laugh:
Myself, I'll be curious to see what (if any) difference it makes, at least until all the 'designer sorts' get used to the new patch and use this thing during map lay-outs, eh?
Liz
I'd imagine it will do much of what Ralph expects it to; making you plan where to begin an offensive based on terrain and an enemy's weak spots, not on which unit you can attack with three hexsides.
I'd imagine it will do much of what Ralph expects it to; making you plan where to begin an offensive based on terrain and an enemy's weak spots, not on which unit you can attack with three hexsides.
What, You assume WE don't do this already???
:clown::clown::clown:
What, You assume WE don't do this already???
:clown::clown::clown:
:D
Well, I have been known to play the game and not the terrain before...
Panzerpelle
02 Aug 07, 09:17
:laugh: :laugh:
How did you not capture Moscow and Stalingrad, then?
My game plan was not to go for Moscow and Stailngrad. Force conservation in the east...I did make a try for Stalingrad which was replused. i just had a goal of keeping the Pantherline as long as possible and as strait as possible.
I think that we can make some changes to the VPs, but that said, such changes should be voluntary, and we should maintain in the briefing that it is up to the individual players to decide (pre-game!) what their victory conditions will be. I am one of those who, while seeing the utility of such conditions, nevertheless feel that holding onto Berlin for a week longer than Hitler did is no victory at all - The Axis are destroyed, and my capital is a smoking ruin... This is a victory? (No it isn't - I lost).
I'm more of 'if either myself or my opponent wins this game, you will look at the map, and you will know this is the case'. Although I have no problems achieving victory with other methods (such as 'last one turn longer', etc, and most especially with scenarios that are balanced with this outcome as the goal); yet I generally prefer victory to mean I won the war.
That said...
I am totally in favor of coming up with some great suggestions for players, though. For example, on a VP thing, How much territory would the Germans need to hold to achieve a 'points' victory? (They are losing the war, but held out longer than Hitler). Historical end date - if they still held all of Germany and part of France and the Balkans, should they 'win'? How many VPs is that?
We could say 'after xx/xx/xx date, the Germans may add Z victory points to their total' for players that prefer the 'did better than history' scenario.
Or, a slightly modified (and more straightforward) version of the above - 'If the Germans are still alive 1 week after the historical end date, they win'. Or it could be some variation of the two themes; holding a certain amount of terrain, and living 'til a certain date.
There's my personal favorite - the all or nothing approach. 'Either the Allies win, or the Axis wins, period.' If the war is not 'over' at the final turn of the scenario, everyone involved will still know who was winning at that point; that side gets a partial victory. Combinations work for this as well, depending on player prefs. For example, if Germany is alive at the end - period - that could mean a draw?
Food for thought!
My game plan was not to go for Moscow and Stailngrad. Force conservation in the east...I did make a try for Stalingrad which was replused. i just had a goal of keeping the Pantherline as long as possible and as strait as possible.
Well it worked! Nicely done.
Hello dudes
it could be something like
After overlord, Axis get one point per turn or per x turn before Berlin is occupied.
It implies that the Allies player must run fast to conquer Germany. More it took times more it becomes difficult to win.
It could modelize the cost in human lives ressource etc... of Allies and the weight it implies on Public opinion. If it spent too much time to kill Germans, the democratic countries population could ask for a cease fire and then Axis can open peace talk to save their skins as in 1918.
My 00,02 €
Der Wander_EA_I_Love_it
_____________________
leehunt27
06 Aug 07, 15:02
makes sense, any ETA on the newest europe flame modifications?
makes sense, any ETA on the newest europe flame modifications?
As soon as Shane has time to look them over and approve them.
Hello dudes
it could be something like
After overlord, Axis get one point per turn or per x turn before Berlin is occupied.
It implies that the Allies player must run fast to conquer Germany. More it took times more it becomes difficult to win.
It could modelize the cost in human lives ressource etc... of Allies and the weight it implies on Public opinion. If it spent too much time to kill Germans, the democratic countries population could ask for a cease fire and then Axis can open peace talk to save their skins as in 1918.
My 00,02 €
Der Wander_EA_I_Love_it
_____________________
Interesting idea, JL.
As soon as Shane has time to look them over and approve them.
Getting closer... Almost up to date on most things (work included), but Friday sees me off to the mountains for 9 days... :D I think we're gone over almost everything on the lists, with the exception of the T3 viewings, and disucssions on France and a few other things. Looking forward to freeing up enough time to work on something this is actually enjoyable! :laugh:
Getting closer... Almost up to date on most things (work included), but Friday sees me off to the mountains for 9 days... :D I think we're gone over almost everything on the lists, with the exception of the T3 viewings, and disucssions on France and a few other things. Looking forward to freeing up enough time to work on something this is actually enjoyable! :laugh:
It'll be sweet to be able to get a new version out. :D
Agreed. :D It'll be nice to finally open up EA on T3 as well. Our power source died on the last trip, so I was unable to even use the laptop, but hopefully that will not be the case this trip. Would really like to take care of all my turns and such while I am gone.
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