Advices needed

[nemo]

Mein Herren!
In my current game with CyberGeneral (historical game), we are trading the heaviest blows against each other's left wing (so to speak as mine does not exist any more :dead: ). I am confident that the Don Front will eventually yeld before a refurbished 6. Armee and a still relatively fresh LVII. PzK - the problem is with the timeframe : I am not sure my left will hold for long enough to wreck Don Front, veer to the left and bag 5TA and possibly 3GA before the soviet reach Rostov... I have already earmarked small portions of my marching wing to reinforce my shattered left but I would hate to lose the initiative completely and engage in an attritional style of game.
Now, if this were a single player-against-player game, I would go for broke, smash Don Front to oblivion if possible and to hell with the consequences. But as member of a team I would not want to give the opposite team the opportunity of an easy OV when it could be avoided by adopting more conservative options and going for an MV or a draw.
The critical point will soon be reached when I have to make my decision : slow down the offensive and shore up my left wing to save what can still be saved - or (my inclination) decide the soviet will yeld before I do and go on with the potential trahsing of Don Front?
As I would like to make an enlighted (:D) decision, any advice will be welcome.
Best of luck to you all - we shall prevail!

[viridomaros]

i'm also smashed in the west, i decided to retreat behind the donetsk while retreating towards zimmovki then rostov with manstein's forces, i also retreated the 6 army ( watch for my topic) if you can form a good defensive line around the donetsk i think you would be in a good position for a draw or even a mv that's what i'm going to try, i'm quite affraid i reacted too late
i have noticed something in this tourney, wermacht team focused on rescuing 6army and planned a strategy to do this, problem is it is a short time strategy as many of us have managed to come to the rescue by turn 5-10. we didn't see the scenario in its entierety and i think it is a big mistake as the scenario last 42 turns. in my game i felt lost by the time i reached 6 army
i was feeling good but by then the italians were smashed then i was not feeling so good and i was asking myself what to do then i went on the tdg site and read the aar and i saw the possibility of getting a draw/mv with retreating behind the donetsk, i think that's a very good strategy for the second half of the scenario as the soviet supply lines will become overextended ( i don't think they have a forward supply point) while your front will be shorter than it was before so it means you'll need less units to cover it.
I'm planning have a complete defence line on the donetsk by turn 20 ( currently turn 18) then i might counter attack towards taksynskaya and morozovsk with my panzer divisions around turn 35
just have a look at the tdg's aar

[MikeJ]

I say go for broke. Losing Rostov temporarily isn't the end of the world, unless I missed something in the briefing. Where are the forward Soviet supply points? Taking Rostov might even be to your advantage to cut lines of communications for his offensive.

[Bruce]

I'm in the same position (on turn 9) - all my Panzer forces on my right and my left flank almost non-existent. I've put two fresh infantry divisions behind the major river and blown the bridges. The Italians and odds and sods of other units on the left will try to delay the Soviet advance.

Rather than try to move my forces to cover the left flank, I'm going to try to destroy his forces around Stalingrad. Once that is done (!!!), I plan to swing west and finish him off. I'm hoping that the sight of his troops in the East getting trashed will make him think about redistributing troops.

I think switching to a defensive game will give the initutative to the Soviet player. If he is any good he will move up, clobber you with artillery and then repeat until he breaks through. Attacking is what Panzer divisions are for!

[nemo]

I'm in the same position (on turn 9) - all my Panzer forces on my right and my left flank almost non-existent. I've put two fresh infantry divisions behind the major river and blown the bridges. The Italians and odds and sods of other units on the left will try to delay the Soviet advance.

Rather than try to move my forces to cover the left flank, I'm going to try to destroy his forces around Stalingrad. Once that is done (!!!), I plan to swing west and finish him off. I'm hoping that the sight of his troops in the East getting trashed will make him think about redistributing troops.

I think switching to a defensive game will give the initutative to the Soviet player. If he is any good he will move up, clobber you with artillery and then repeat until he breaks through. Attacking is what Panzer divisions are for!I tend to agree with you. The last thing I want is to give CyberGeneral a free hand to decide where and when I would be compelled to react to his moves. God knows I could use a pair of extra Panzerdivisionen!

[nemo]

I say go for broke. Losing Rostov temporarily isn't the end of the world, unless I missed something in the briefing. Where are the forward Soviet supply points? Taking Rostov might even be to your advantage to cut lines of communications for his offensive.This is just so... tempting!

[viridomaros]

I say go for broke. Losing Rostov temporarily isn't the end of the world, unless I missed something in the briefing. Where are the forward Soviet supply points? Taking Rostov might even be to your advantage to cut lines of communications for his offensive.
44th army as a supply point you can't take because of *hexes for my part i think it can be dangerous because if your opponent can send more troops what are you going to do with the 6th army?? :o

[nemo]

i'm also smashed in the west, i decided to retreat behind the donetsk while retreating towards zimmovki then rostov with manstein's forces, i also retreated the 6 army ( watch for my topic) if you can form a good defensive line around the donetsk i think you would be in a good position for a draw or even a mv that's what i'm going to try, i'm quite affraid i reacted too late
i have noticed something in this tourney, wermacht team focused on rescuing 6army and planned a strategy to do this, problem is it is a short time strategy as many of us have managed to come to the rescue by turn 5-10. we didn't see the scenario in its entierety and i think it is a big mistake as the scenario last 42 turns. in my game i felt lost by the time i reached 6 army
i was feeling good but by then the italians were smashed then i was not feeling so good and i was asking myself what to do then i went on the tdg site and read the aar and i saw the possibility of getting a draw/mv with retreating behind the donetsk, i think that's a very good strategy for the second half of the scenario as the soviet supply lines will become overextended ( i don't think they have a forward supply point) while your front will be shorter than it was before so it means you'll need less units to cover it.
I'm planning have a complete defence line on the donetsk by turn 20 ( currently turn 18) then i might counter attack towards taksynskaya and morozovsk with my panzer divisions around turn 35
just have a look at the tdg's aarI did peruse every single piece of material publicly available at TDG about the scenario and read the AARs. I also cracked it open in the editor and checked the numbers : the odds are clearly against us in the long run IF we engage in an exclusively defensive setting and indulge into set-piece battles. From this perspective, reaching the pocket is not an end in itself, but a means to augment our offensive firepower with a freed and resupplied 6. Armee. Add to this that I am even worse on the defensive than on the offensive and my case is done ;).
With a game set up along historical lines as it is the case for me, keeping the initiative for as long as possible (and why not until the end) and dealing such blows to the soviets that they can not but slow down and pass on to the defensive is the only way I can win. But it is far from being a 100%-certainty course of action. In short terms, the first who blinks loses - the problem is I have played CyberGeneral quite a few times now and did not noticed any blinking...

[nemo]

44th army as a supply point you can't take because of *hexes for my part i think it can be dangerous because if your opponent can send more troops what are you going to do with the 6th army?? :oAs far as historical games are concerned, you do not need to worry about 44A, it does not show up during the game nor does 1. PzA. And if the soviet player sends a large number of troops down south, it should make the Axis task all the easier when it comes to cutting them from supply as they will not be able to oppose the intended swing by 6. Armee et al. from east to west. If everything else goes fine and smooth of course...

[viridomaros]

As far as historical games are concerned, you do not need to worry about 44A, it does not show up during the game nor does 1. PzA. And if the soviet player sends a large number of troops down south, it should make the Axis taks all the easier when it comes to cutting them from supply as they will not be able to oppose the intended swing by 6. Armee et al. from east to west. If everything else goes fine and smooth of course...
didn't know about this sorry
i have chosen first panzer army release, so i have to deal with the 44th army now and i won't let it take rostov, may be i shouldn't have chosen this to, a game with two to might have been better. especially given the fact i received most of the 1panzer army quite late i can't remember the turn but i know i received the panzer ss viking quite late

[Furocity]

So far my left flank is still intact, but I augmented the Italians with 4 German Infantry divisions and kept the 5th SS MRD as an operational reserve.

I also pulled the 3rd PZ Division from 1st PZ Army and sent them as an operational reserve in the center.

I took 19th PZ and pushed them into the center to conduct a supporting attack as 57th PZ Corp Main Effort attacked towards Stalingrad.

I agree that in the long run, we are at a disadvantage, that is why I kept 5th SS and 3rd PZ Divisions as operational reserves, sealing off any penetrations and destroying surrounded units.

Luftwaffe: I have used them HARD, and they are exhausted, and losses are high about 60%. However I can still obtain AS oon occassion, because I have done some selected arty bombardments and aitstrikes on his airfield (his losses are pretty high too).

[nemo]

So far my left flank is still intact, but I augmented the Italians with 4 German Infantry divisions and kept the 5th SS MRD as an operational reserve.

I also pulled the 3rd PZ Division from 1st PZ Army and sent them as an operational reserve in the center.

I took 19th PZ and pushed them into the center to conduct a supporting attack as 57th PZ Corp Main Effort attacked towards Stalingrad.

I agree that in the long run, we are at a disadvantage, that is why I kept 5th SS and 3rd PZ Divisions as operational reserves, sealing off any penetrations and destroying surrounded units.

Luftwaffe: I have used them HARD, and they are exhausted, and losses are high about 60%. However I can still obtain AS oon occassion, because I have done some selected arty bombardments and aitstrikes on his airfield (his losses are pretty high too).Sounds good indeed. Unfortunately, I do not have the luxury of 1. PzA and have few German infantry units intact on the left. With retrospective insight, I would say I left them deployed way too close to the frontline - no use in crying over spilt milk though, I will make do with what I have under hand. The fact is I can not afford reinforcing my left without grounding to a halt my offensive on the right. Is it worth the price in the long run? Or would I have better stick to my current set of mind : attempt to crush the soviet left to fall on his right's flank afterwards?

[viridomaros]

well for me situation is clear a draw is better than an od i think crushing soviet in the north can work but it is quite risky while putting up a defense on the donestk is more saffer for getting a draw
we should make an estimation on all games ongoing on the axis side.
ravenstrika has scored an ov already i think
viridomaros (me :rolleyes: ) is planning to get a draw or a mv at best for the others i have no news
it will be good to make this report, as we can see the overall situation of the team, then if we are in a good situation it might be good you try the strategy of crushing the soviets but no need of this risk if the team is already in a bad position
may be we should ask this to bruce? :hmmm:

[nemo]

The idea of having a report/game status for the team as a whole is a good one. If we plan to use it to help individual commanders take their decisions, it has to be made pretty soon : several players seem to have reached turn 10+.
CyberGeneral has already sent back his turn (I am currently playing turn 13) and it does not look like he is going to slow his rate of fire - though I do not rush my turns, I would not want to have him waiting for too long (especially when they are already so long to complete with all the AAR stuff around).

[RavenStrike]

Someone should check me on this, but if I remember correctly you can still get an MV by holding at the Donetz and Don rivers and south. Even losing the Stalingrad area works.

Without seeing the battle field up close it's hard to advise, but I'd drop back to the Donetz and pull what's needed from the east to defend it well, then use what's left to try and hold the Stalingrad area while maximizing enemy losses killing off his Southern Army.

Probably easier said than done. :confused:

[viridomaros]

Someone should check me on this, but if I remember correctly you can still get an MV by holding at the Donetz and Don rivers and south. Even losing the Stalingrad area works.

Without seeing the battle field up close it's hard to advise, but I'd drop back to the Donetz and pull what's needed from the east to defend it well, then use what's left to try and hold the Stalingrad area while maximizing enemy losses killing off his Southern Army.

Probably easier said than done. :confused:
i agree with you ravenstrike, can you confirm about the fact you get an ov?

[RavenStrike]

Yes, my match is over. An OV for the good guys.

[General Staff]

You might want to bear in mind that on T30 the Zimovinki supply point, to all intents and purposes the only available points east aside from Gumrak with its single hex effect, disappears. Quote: "There is a supply point in the village of Zimovinki to support the rescue attempt. It will be removed on turn 30 or if the Theatre Option of early release of 1st Panzer Army is activated, on Turn 12.".

You're then dependent solely on 0,30 for supply if you retreat to the super river line. With better Soviet AS due to the loss of Axis forward airfields, it might be easier to blow the bridge at 1,30 reducing supply further or even make this an objective for an assault which if taken is effectively game over for Axis. Quote: "When the airfields at Millerovo, Tatsynskaya and Morozovsk are captured by the Soviets the redeployment of Luftwaffe units affects the Luftwaffe performance as a small air shock of 95% for the first airfield and then 90% and 85%. This will last for the duration of the game.". Unless you've really hammered Soviet air early, you could lose the air war at this point- then all sorts of nasty things happen like bridge blowing and heavy duty interdiction.

Sorry if I'm the bearer of bad news here but situation doesn't look promising. I'm still only on T4 but am reading loud and clear from the rest of the team (thanks!) that (a) maybe we've been a bit short sighted here in focusing on the relief effort and (b) Soviet forces west pack a tremendous punch. If anyone is still on early turns I'm counting on:

1) Reserve units west. Pretty much everything new is heading to the northwest/west central sector- 27th Panzer and 385th Infantry. I've also pulled Rumanian 2nd Corps and plan to pull 22nd Panzer out of the central sector into reserve by rotating in arriving F-Pico and 17th Corps units. Using these to seal off and destroy penetrations.
2) Use badlands defensively as armour cannot attack/enter.
3) Defence in depth with broken down units.
4) Stack broken down units of different nationalities/formations together so they benefit from each others' arty support.
5)Take the edge of his big infantry units with LA/ML attacks with heavy direct arty support. You need to limit and hopefully eliminate his overrun potential.
6) Supply units carefully positioned- I've got 2 up here.
7) Last but not least Gott mit Uns!

Fingers crossed...

[nemo]

You might want to bear in mind that on T30 the Zimovinki supply point, to all intents and purposes the only available points east aside from Gumrak with its single hex effect, disappears. Quote: "There is a supply point in the village of Zimovinki to support the rescue attempt. It will be removed on turn 30 or if the Theatre Option of early release of 1st Panzer Army is activated, on Turn 12.".

You're then dependent solely on 0,30 for supply if you retreat to the super river line. With better Soviet AS due to the loss of Axis forward airfields, it might be easier to blow the bridge at 1,30 reducing supply further or even make this an objective for an assault which if taken is effectively game over for Axis. Quote: "When the airfields at Millerovo, Tatsynskaya and Morozovsk are captured by the Soviets the redeployment of Luftwaffe units affects the Luftwaffe performance as a small air shock of 95% for the first airfield and then 90% and 85%. This will last for the duration of the game.". Unless you've really hammered Soviet air early, you could lose the air war at this point- then all sorts of nasty things happen like bridge blowing and heavy duty interdiction.I had the supply point disappearance and the airfield loss shock somewhere in the back of my mind but failed to connect both adequately and draw consequences... Thanks for the warning. I thus have something like a 10-turns window of opportunity to put Don and South Fronts hors de combat (optimistic) or establish withdrawn armoured corps defensively on the Donetz (reasonable).
More headaches in perspective...

Last but not least Gott mit Uns!He had better indeed!