View Full Version : The backdoor strategy, a strategical case study with TOAW
This 1st post is just en introduction about I will try to share with you.
An in depth analysis of one of French and Swiss fear about German possible strategy facing the Maginot line.
The backdoor strategy as Both Head Quater called it, was the ability for German Army to invade Switzerland through the Bâle area then passing the Vaux plain to enter France, bypassing the Maginot line and running in the back of the French Army.
For the Germans I do not think that this was a possible option. They were more linked to the former Schlieffen plan : "invade France through Belgium."
Now and for the following posts I will show you the consequences of this Backdoor strategy fear for the may 1940 battle.
And how though the Europe Aflame scenario, I'm playing this option against my oponent Killorbekilled.
I hope it will interest you
My best thoughts to all of you
Der WanderSurpriseSurprise
_______________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
Invade Switzerland?! Nuts?? :nuts:
But go on, JL.:)
Invade Switzerland?! Nuts?? :nuts:
But go on, JL.:)
Well - it won't be boring :p
freightshaker
21 Jul 07, 10:24
It is interesting that the French anticipated and thought an invasion through Switzerland possible but discounted the Ardennes. I've thought about trying it in HOI2.
CONSEQUENCES OF THE GREAT WAR
1. Economic & human assessment
Turn back to November 11 1918 . After four years of a massacre without common measurement with the wars humanity had already known, the trumpets and bugles played the cease fire.
Let us look at the human assessment. It was terrible for all combatant countries and perhaps worst for France . The most recent studies have raised the figures of the losses to more than 1.400.000 dead and nearly 4.800.000 wounded.
If we take these figures in relation to the number of mobilized soldiers the rates reach more than 20% KIA and nearly 57% WIA. Of the soldiers engaged on the front line in 1914 only 5% were still alive in 1918. While Germany suffered 1.800.000 KIA, her population was twice that of France . Russia , too, suffered 1,700,000 KIA but had a population three times that of France .
But if the human assessment was terrible the economic cost was no better. Concerning the western front the main part of the engagements occurred in France . With multiple advances and retreats, both sides systematically destroyed bridges and the rail network, not to mention whole villages razed to the ground during the fights. The destruction was most severe during the German retreat of 1918 with their scorched earth policy. French mines and industries were especially targeted during this retreat.
All the French military doctrines established during the Twenties—still in practice in 1940—are the result of these assessments.
2. Military consequences
As early as 1920, politicians had to make the key choice: was France to have a professional army or an army of conscription? They chose conscription. France once again had an army ‘of the nation’, “La levée en masse”.
Moreover, French HQ already knew that France would probably have to fight Germany again, even with the supposedly restrictive aspects of the Versailles Treaty. Why? Because the Treaty was already seen by some as flawed. The US Senate, signifying its renewed isolationist stance, refused to ratify the treaty thus withdrawing the signature of the United States on the guarantee of European borders.
Der WanderTheyWon'tPass
______________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
RhinoBones
21 Jul 07, 18:41
Not too long ago there was a scenario posted that dealt with this very subject, i.e. attacking France by moving through Switzerland. As I recall the scenario was we received and was thoroughly discussed on the TDG forum. I don’t have a copy, but it shouldn’t be too hard to find.
Regards, RhinoBones
Silvanski
22 Jul 07, 03:22
Check this out
http://www.schweiz1940.ch/limmat40-en/index.htm
Further posting will come soon
Be patient
Der WanderWorkingForYou
______________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
The Maginot Line
1- Why The maginot line
Most of War Industries and raw material rproduction area were set in north and north east part of France (iron and coal mine epecialy), an invaqsion as in 1914 would lead to the loss of there sites.
The French GQG since years 1920 was for sure that a new war with Germany was for established for certain. And in this case it would imply an heavy and quick assault made by an armoured force. As France decideed in the 1920's to rely on conscription, the mobilization time would taken about a fortnight.
For all those reasons it was decided to create a defensive line along the borders to permit
a- to hold any agression on French borders at least for 8 days, this to permit the main professional forces to launch massive counter attacks and to give time for the French army to fully mobilize.
b- to avoid any deep prenetration of forces in the east fo France
The goal of the maginot line was not to be an unbrekable wall but a defensive system which would be abble to slow down invaders.
2 - About Line itself
It was made by a set of fortress which can covers each others by defensive fire as well as shelling direct agressors. between those main fortress a series of tobroks linked or not to the main fortress with goal to pinpoint infiltrating pionners and tanks.
The concept was defined in 1929, and the construction was budgeted from 1930 up to 1934, date by which the maginot line was finished.
The main problem was the non extension of the line to the sea as we were relying on an agreement made with Belgium Army in 1920's by which Belgium Army would create a defensive line along the Albert Canal and the Dyle river.
defensive line which was never built.
The maginot line From south east to North was a line which began from the mediteraneansea (near Nice) up to Geneva. Then nothing was set along the Switzerland border, began anew along the Rhine river up to the east of Sedan, and as I explained it before, the line stopped there.
I will join on the next post some pictures I did during my last holidays visiting the Maginot Line Fortresses
Der WanderOn_Ne_Passe_Pas
_________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
:surprise:Click on pictures to enlarge them :surprise:
The first picture is made at the Saint Agnes Fortress, north of Menton facing the Italian border, the windows you see in light grey are the 75mm guns who were aimed againt the Italian border itself. There was the same "wall" in the back of the fortress aimaing northward to cover the Sospel fortress.
as I explained it before all fortress have guns which cover and protect each others.
http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/Meutri_res_compr_ss_es.jpg (http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=94)
The next picture shows you diagrams of heavy weapons system used in the Maginot Line, shell launcher of 135 mm (granaten werfer like) range 5600m
75mm howitzer range 12000m, 81mm mortar, lot of m7,5 mm machine guns.
The heaviest fortress was abble to deliver something line 4 tons of "shells" per minutes
http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/schema_armement_des_casemates_ligne_maginot.jpg (http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=93)
Here is a twin 75 mm guns cupola, each guns was abble to launch 12 shells per minutes. When Itlians forces tried to cross the French border near Menton, their were nearly stopped due to the fire rate of the Saint Agnes and Sospel fortresses.
http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/Twin_75_mm_guns_cupola.jpg (http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=95)
The same misforune occured to the German attack against Thionville area in June 1940 "Operation Tiger", where German divisions were stopped by the deadly fire of the Line.
The first picture is made at the Saint Agnes Fortress, north of Menton facing the Italian border, the windows you see in light grey are the 75mm guns who were aimed againt the Italian border itself. There was the same "wall" in the back of the fortress aimaing northward to cover the Sospel fortress.
as I explained it before all fortress have guns which cover and protect each others.
http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/Meutri_res_compr_ss_es.jpg (http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=94)
The next picture shows you diagrams of heavy weapons system used in the Maginot Line, shell launcher of 135 mm (granaten werfer like) range 5600m
75mm howitzer range 12000m, 81mm mortar, lot of m7,5 mm machine guns.
The heaviest fortress was abble to deliver something line 4 tons of "shells" per minutes
http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/schema_armement_des_casemates_ligne_maginot.jpg (http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=93)
Here is a twin 75 mm guns cupola, each guns was abble to launch 12 shells per minutes. When Itlians forces tried to cross the French border near Menton, their were nearly stopped due to the fire rate of the Saint Agnes and Sospel fortresses.
http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/data/500/thumbs/Twin_75_mm_guns_cupola.jpg (http://www.gamesquad.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=95)
The same misforune occured to the German attack against Thionville area in June 1940 "Operation Tiger", were German divisions were stopped by the deadly fire of the Line.
Sorry JLB - you'll have to do better than this - did'nt only 80 +/- german paratroopers land and control a certain fort in April 40:cool:
Next pictures would be dedicated to the inside of a maginot line fortress
Be patient
Der Wander_Itwas_Upon_A_Time
___________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
Next pictures would be dedicated to the inside of a maginot line fortress
Be patient
Der Wander_Itwas_Upon_A_Time
I'm just jealous of your vacation:laugh:
___________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
I'm just jealous of your vacation plans:laugh:
Sorry JLB - you'll have to do better than this - did'nt only 80 +/- german paratroopers land and control a certain fort in April 40:cool:
Hi Foggy,
you spoke about the Eben Eamel Fortress captured in May 1940. Problem was quite different 1st Belgiums units were not under war alert, most of the crew was outside the fort itself in a village located at 5 km. And at the difference of the maginot line, the fort was not protected by flanking troops.
If troops were launched upon a French fort other would have launch bombardment on top, it occured many time. The only French fort captured in real war condition with all protective forces nearby, was the La Ferte Fort, it was a great shock for Fortress troops when the Fort was taken by Germans
I have lot of pictures and information about trhis event, I couls publsh about it latter after this study about the backdoor strategy
Der WanderBePatientLittlePadawan
_____________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
Hi Foggy,
you spoke about the Eben Eamel Fortress captured in May 1940. Problem was quite different 1st Belgiums units were not under war alert, most of the crew was outside the fort itself in a village located at 5 km. And at the difference of the maginot line, the fort was not protected by flanking troops.
If troops were launched upon a French fort other would have launch bombardment on top, it occured many time. The only French fort captured in real war condition with all protective forces nearby, was the La Ferte Fort, it was a great shock for Fortress troops when the Fort was taken by Germans
I have lot of pictures and information about trhis event, I couls publsh about it latter after this study about the backdoor strategy
Der WanderBePatientLittlePadawan
_____________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
Don't worry JLB - I'm just being lazy - you do realize this train of thought leads down to the fact the colonials fought harder than the natives :halo:
freightshaker
08 Aug 07, 00:32
Kaufmann's "Hitler's Blitzkrieg Campaigns" has some excellent information on the Maginot line, including diagrams of the major forts, drawing of different ouverages, and positioning maps.
Don't worry JLB - I'm just being lazy - you do realize this train of thought leads down to the fact the colonials fought harder than the natives :halo:
Yes it is the effect of both influences of Vichy and De Gaulle propaganda
Vichy to protect " The Army" told that France was not ready to enter war and not motivated due to the 3rd Republic politicians
De Gaulle to highlight that only Free French were fighting well during this war as they were the beating heart of Fighting France.
Last works of historians French German and some british ones are proving this was a false idea. Mains problems were due to the fatal influence of Petain thoughts and its implication of GQG doctrine. French soldiers mostly fought very well but Germans units and High level Officers were more practical, more adaptative, quicker and had better communication means than the French ones.
A fact is enough to help how things were. Information and orders needed up to 48 hours to make "journey" from a great unit up to the GQG at Vincennes and return !!!!
Der Wander_Vous_n'Aurez_Pas_L'Alsace_&_La_Lorraine
______________________________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
So I spoke about TOAW
Let's have a look at Scenario initial conditions and how it leads me to take this strategical position
My oponent KillOrBeKilled, KOK, chose the extended Maginot line option.
Following this option, I could take too the Eastern crusade option!. But in this case I let a chance for the French army to get stronger and even if I win the Eastern crusade, they can reinforce the unprotected areas with better equiped units.
Fact that KoK chose extended Maginot line option permited too the Hungarians Romanians and Bulgarians to join the dark side of Axis :D
I let these nations the goal to invade and take control of Yugoslavia and Greece.
I do not attacks Poland this to avoid direct contact with USSR forces.
I moved all my troops toward Swizerland border and launch the invasion.
KoK seing these moves brought too all his units toward Swiss border, I pick up some units and open hotilities against Low countries.
To be continued ...
Der WanderTheyShallNotPass
________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
a white rabbit
08 Aug 07, 08:15
Yes it is the effect of both influences of Vichy and De Gaulle propaganda
Vichy to protect " The Army" told that France was not ready to enter war and not motivated due to the 3rd Republic politicians
De Gaulle to highlight that only Free French were fighting well during this war as they were the beating heart of Fighting France.
Last works of historians French German and some british ones are proving this was a false idea. Mains problems were due to the fatal influence of Petain thoughts and its implication of GQG doctrine. French soldiers mostly fought very well but Germans units and High level Officers were more practical, more adaptative, quicker and had better communication means than the French ones.
A fact is enough to help how things were. Information and orders needed up to 48 hours to make "journey" from a great unit up to the GQG at Vincennes and return !!!!
Der Wander_Vous_n'Aurez_Pas_L'Alsace_&_La_Lorraine
______________________________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
..my favourite is the procurement of aircraft, fighters to be precise, which if fully assembled went before one commitee and funds would not be voted as no longer available, but if in bits, one Dewoitiene fighter and 1 propellor at another site goes before another commitee and get's passed as spares..
..if you want to invade France do it on a Saturday, just before a public holiday on Monday, in August. By the time the relevant officials come back to work you should be in Paris..
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