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Bullethead
18 Jul 07, 11:59
The other day I got word of the official historical site for the French navy. It's here: http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/02fonds-collections/banquedocuments/planbato/planbato/central.htm.

The really cool thing is that they've got the official, original plans for a bunch of old French ships available for free download here (http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/02fonds-collections/banquedocuments/planbato/planbato/listebato/listebato.php). Alas, no Dupuy de Lome, but a lot of my other favorites are on there :). The available plans cover ships from the 1880s to the 1960s. Many ships on the list were sisters so the number of classes available is less than it appears, but it's still an impressive collection.

If you're interested in getting some of these plans, it helps if you read French :). Fortunately, many nautical terms are the same in many languages, so it's not THAT hard if you're not up on French. Don't translate the page because that will translate ship names, too, and those usually don't look anything the same in English, so you can't find the ship you want.

The plans, when printed out, are usually about 1.5m long for side views of ships. In general, all the plans are "as built", not "as fitted" or "as modified". Most ships have a bunch of different plan sheets available. These range from hull lines and external general arrangements, to deck plans from the highest mast platforms to the lowest bilges. There are also usually a number of detail drawings of such things as hatches, davits, A-brackets, ammo hoists, how internal communication systems were connected, etc. Not all of these are available for each ship, however, but members of the same class often have different sheets available, so you can assemble a full package by taking from several ships.

The drawing files have cryptic names, however, which tell you nothing of their content. So if you're only interested in, say, external views, you need to read the "fiche bateau". It works like this: When you click on a ship's name on the big list above, you go to a page for that ship with further links to photos, the plans, and a PDF file called "fiche bateau". This PDF file lists all the available plan sheets and what they contain. Then you can download the specific sheets that interest you.

The "fiche bateau" is, of course, in French. My French isn't very good (most of what little I know is the Cajun dialect, which is rather different from real French). However, I can stumble through this, especially after a little trial and error. So don't be afraid of it :).

Enforcer
18 Jul 07, 13:33
Interesting! The French counterpart of this site http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/index.html

luckily French and German are no problem to me, that's a considerable advantage when seeking out literature: you're not limited to your own tongue, very often the narrative power goes (partially) lost in a translation.

Bullethead
18 Jul 07, 20:59
luckily French and German are no problem to me, that's a considerable advantage when seeking out literature: you're not limited to your own tongue, very often the narrative power goes (partially) lost in a translation.

I can get by OK reading French, especially technical stuff on subjects I'm familiar with. The main problem I have is when the Cajun and Parisian dialects use different words for the same thing, and I only know the Cajun word.

The big problem for me is speaking French to non-Cajuns, because all I can speak is Cajun (and not too much of that). The accent is much harsher and louder, much more from the diaphram. The pronounciation is very different, usually with all words accented on the 1st syllable, plus things like pronouncing "bien" as "byAHH". All the standard phrases are different, as is often the grammar (moi je.., je va fait..., ou est ils..., etc.). Also, many Cajun words are "Spoonerized". For example, the Cajun word for alligator is "cocodrie" instead of crocodile :surprise:. Finally, modern Cajun is often peppered with random English words without regard for case or gender, nearly every 3rd word is "maudite" (except when its English equivalent is used), and virtually every sentence, whether a statement or a question, ends in "hien?" (pronounced hyEHH?).

This makes it nearly impossible for me to talk to the French tourists that often come through here. Even if I can understand their Parisian, they sure as Hell can't understand my Cajun. The really funny part is, I grew up thinking I spoke my limited French vocabulary pretty well. I didn't know there as a difference between Cajun and Parisian until I tried taking French in school. 1/2 the grade was oral so I nearly failed the class :clown:

Enforcer
19 Jul 07, 02:42
The really funny part is, I grew up thinking I spoke my limited French vocabulary pretty well. I didn't know there as a difference between Cajun and Parisian until I tried taking French in school. 1/2 the grade was oral so I nearly failed the class :clown:

That's a remark on which I'd like to elaborate :nuts:

many people THINK they are good at foreign languages. Most (Non-British) Europeans think they're excellent at English. Sure, they can be understood, but there's not much to it, isn't it, being understood, not even in some languages that you don't know at all. Most of the time they seriously lack grammar and glossary for deeper conversations instead of "hey, how ar you? oh nice, and how are the children! oh good, too bad it's raining!" all the time. Not to mention their gruesome pronounciation, most can't even say the "th" sound.

I for instance know that I've still got a very long way to go, to master English, a difficult and underestimated language.

Now, as for Frenchmen, they are - in general - quite reluctant to learning foreign languages and their English belongs to the worst of all Western Europeans :p Statistics have shown that even Britons/Americans (who really needn't worry about language when they travel around the world) tend to develop more interest in another language than the French... well that must be off saying something! :D

Bullethead
19 Jul 07, 12:07
Most of the time they seriously lack grammar and glossary for deeper conversations instead of "hey, how ar you? oh nice, and how are the children! oh good, too bad it's raining!" all the time.

When learning a foreign language, it's absolutely vital to know how to ask directions to a bar and order drinks once there. This is because if you can do this, natives there will teach you some of their slang and curse words. If you can pick these up quickly, the natives will buy you drinks all night. Then the next night, when you go to the next town on your journey, you can show off your new knowledge and get free drinks from the start, instead of having to buy one yourself first. I've found this very useful in my travels :D.

Hinchinbrooke
19 Jul 07, 21:25
The other day I got word of the official historical site for the French navy. It's here: http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...to/central.htm.

Yes, it's a very good site.................... almost overwhelming when you consider all the detailed plans. Almost too much info, ............when I was constructing the cruiser Foch.

I wish the UK's National Maritime Museum would do the same thing with their Ship Covers and 'as fitted' plans, etc.

Bullethead
20 Jul 07, 11:48
I wish the UK's National Maritime Museum would do the same thing with their Ship Covers and 'as fitted' plans, etc.

Amen to that. Or at the very least, just have an online list of all their plans so I'd know what they've really got.

Daedalus
20 Jul 07, 14:31
Amen to that. Or at the very least, just have an online list of all their plans so I'd know what they've really got.

I saw a site last year when looking around the web on plans for the older British warships. But I cannot for the life of me remember where it was , or the name.
I can't go back through my logs as I lost all in a major computer crash. I am going to do some searching today and see if I can find it by chance.