Opponents wanted

[Menschenfresser]

Looking for one or two new games....

My Soviets in FitE are just about to have their arses handed to them, so in one of the two I'd like to give them another try to see if I've learned anything.

The other game can be anything and any side.

[Dicke Bertha]

What's the status in your FiTE? What critical mistakes did you make (not asking you to disclose future strategy :))?

[Menschenfresser]

I lost too much initially trying to defend the western borders. I lost probably an entire army plus front artillery defending Minsk. Several Corps defending Riga and lands north of Minsk. I built up the Stalin Line initially but fell back so quickly that I didn't really lose much there. However, I defended Kiev and the Dnepr until the last man.

The next line around Smolensk ended up being so weak from the loses to the west that it fell right away.

After that, I never had a hold on the German advance south of Bryansk. I tried to defend the Don, Stalingrad and Rostov. Several sea invasions disrupted Rostov, but it probably would have fallen anyway. I lost the Don defense rather quickly and Stalingrad fell without a fight really.

The Moscow defense held for a while, but I just couldn't stop the German grind no matter what I contributed to the battle. The only thing that held was Leningrad. It's slowly being picked apart now that a panzer grenadier division arrived on the scene.

The lessons are that the Soviets should not waste divisions on anything but a unified defense. A forward defense doesn't really slow the Germans when commanded by someone who knows the game. Neither does the roadblock theory. A single division without artillery and flank support doesn't last a single turn. I think it's best to abandon the west and run toward Moscow. Once the Germans meet your first line (whether that's Leningrad-Smolensk-Dneprpetrovsk or Leningrad-Moscow Forts-Rostov) the name of the game is to constantly make small retreats rather than allow the Germans to fully engage your line. That's a hard statement to follow up, but it's better to fall back slightly than let the Germans maneuver. The Germans are most dangerous when on the move.

That's just my theory. The Soviets cannot survive defending the west. Even the roadblock theory uses too many divisions when trying to slow the whole front.

EDIT: Status is, I've lost everything except Gorky and Leningrad. And there's no future strategy at this point.
DOUBLE EDIT: Personally, I think the Germans are still too strong in '41. It might help if the Soviet regular armies were set to something higher than internal support.

[Veers]

DOUBLE EDIT: Personally, I think the Germans are still too strong in '41. It might help if the Soviet regular armies were set to something higher than internal support.

Yeah. How often in history did any division stay within the same Corps/Army for a whole war?

Disclaimer: I haven't played FitE. :laugh:

[Dicke Bertha]

Interesting. I assume you're somewhere late '41 or early '42.

It is of course too early to say really in my game, but it is looking grim already at T12. Smolensk fallen, close combat in Bryansk with no reserves behind, the south almost entierly open... only on the Luga is there some line - albeit already engaged and Germans across at Kingisepp.

Going back to my end files, I see that Riga and Minsk were lost already by T4. I tried to construct roadblocks in corps or triplet unit size groups, and really ran like mad to the east in the south, but neither running nor standing did much good... We'll see, in ten turns Mario might be parading me in front of depressed Moscovites! :)

I don't think I've made huge mistakes... of course many mistakes, but no hugies. Don't really know what to do... Desert to the German side? :laugh:

[Menschenfresser]

Turn 30. :(

But that's the frustrating thing, DB. You don't have to make mistakes to lose as the Soviets. I have a solitaire game going where I pulled back everything possible to a line just east of Smolensk, down through Bryansk and to Melitopol. I gave up Minsk, Riga, Kiev, Odessa, Tallinn and Smolensk for free (except for a few static units in Kiev and Odessa I haven't moved). It's T6 and the Germans have taken Smolensk! There's been very little combat except for the first two turns. I think the Soviets salvaged more than in any other game I've seen. Not sure it will matter in the end.

Riga and Minsk by turn 4 will probably happen no matter what you do--run or stay.

[Bloodstar]

We'll see, in ten turns Mario might be parading me in front of depressed Moscovites! :)

OKW radioed to me that we are not interested in Moscow at all :lier::D.
That's only a devious plan to pin large Soviet forces there :devious:.

Nice move recapturing Bryansk, I had really not sufficient forces there. My Brandeburgers however have paid of.

And now on the scene arrives 7th FJ Division. Now where and when we will employ those guys? :smoke: Nice what if touch there as it was never in fact used on Eastern Front.

Really interesting game...


Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

OKW radioed to me that we are not interested in Moscow at all :lier::D.
That's only a devious plan to pin large Soviet forces there :devious:.

Nice move recapturing Bryansk, I had really not sufficient forces there. My Brandeburgers however have paid of.

And now on the scene arrives 7th FJ Division. Now where and when we will employ those guys? :smoke: Nice what if touch there as it was never in fact used on Eastern Front.

Really interesting game...


Mario


Mario, isn't there a house rule stating that 7th FJ can only be used to garrison Orsha and Mogilev? :whist:

On FitE mechanics, from obviously limited experience, I'd say that the Soviet units fold rather quickly. As Mensch says nothing resists even a turn, maybe changing formation support level would be beneficial. Then again, as Germans, I'd probably not be able to achieve the same... :bite:

[Dicke Bertha]

Turn 30. :(

But that's the frustrating thing, DB. You don't have to make mistakes to lose as the Soviets. I have a solitaire game going where I pulled back everything possible to a line just east of Smolensk, down through Bryansk and to Melitopol. I gave up Minsk, Riga, Kiev, Odessa, Tallinn and Smolensk for free (except for a few static units in Kiev and Odessa I haven't moved). It's T6 and the Germans have taken Smolensk! There's been very little combat except for the first two turns. I think the Soviets salvaged more than in any other game I've seen. Not sure it will matter in the end.

Riga and Minsk by turn 4 will probably happen no matter what you do--run or stay.

Yea, if starting over, what I'd like to do as Soviets is to build moving roadblocks strechted out back on the road to be retreated along. Major roads would be blocked by soemthing corps-like, smaller roads by brigade kampfgruppen. Three things make this impossible. 1: The Soviets aren't Germans and never mastered the concept 'moving pocket'. 2: Breakdown limitations (we're playing ACOW). 3: Haven't yet come up with this explanation should the other two fail. :laugh:

[Bloodstar]

Yeah. How often in history did any division stay within the same Corps/Army for a whole war?

Disclaimer: I haven't played FitE. :laugh:

Yeah, the scenario lacks some things but designers had to make some compromise... I have a rather large email corespodency with them so I know why they do this or that (mostly) because I have argued many things...
Now I noticed that they put Stug battalion into every regiment of German Sturm division and that division was purely infantry div. until 1943.
Many German div. didn't reconstructed but in the game almost all reconstruct - logically wise in fact, no objections there.

Soviets get's much more formations in 5.0 version but with lesss readiness and supply. So basically you get division that historically was just in the process of forming and activating! So you choose to use it or to wait to get better supply and be more ready. Designers have tested this scenario many times so they know what they doing. Internal support was put there because of mentioned boost in Soviet formations and artyllery etc...In any way Soviets don't get into offensive before winter at least.

Some changes that were proposed on Matrix forum by some guys are in fact ok for Axis and Soviets, so to not handicap only one side. For example no pulling of Soviet units from Poland etc...
EDIT: Toaw is far from perfect and it is hard to design scenario with whole Russo-German war inside but there is games where Soviet win and there is games where Germans wins.


Mario

[Bloodstar]

Mario, isn't there a house rule stating that 7th FJ can only be used to garrison Orsha and Mogilev? :whist:

On FitE mechanics, from obviously limited experience, I'd say that the Soviet units fold rather quickly. As Mensch says nothing resists even a turn, maybe changing formation support level would be beneficial. Then again, as Germans, I'd probably not be able to achieve the same... :bite:

I could only add that if Soviets manage to hold on on same position like historically which is hard because of TOAW dynamics as well they get same replacements as historically and boost on turn 43 I think (forgot the bonus).
If they manage to better that result they get much more tanks, inf., planes etc... than historically. again because of TOAW.
It's only up to players how will they achieve this. Germans also don't have easy task and war of attrition on a longer period suits much more to the Soviets in the end. The question is what to defend, where to pull out and where most reinforcements are coming.


Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

Well nothing wrong with FitE when a German player wins by playing better and making less mistakes than the Soviet player. I am afraid that is exactly the situation in our game! :D

Still, I'd like to see Soviet defenses last just a little bit longer, as is they collapse immediately, whether they're a regimental or corps sized roadblock... Then again, one of the early challenges for the Soviets is and should be to construct the optimal delaying defense...

There just doesn't seem to be much I can do to slow down the German infantry - that the motorised units would advance really quickly is to be expected.... but any new Soviet lines are always untenable and weaker than German spearheads since the infantry follows right behind!

But FitE rocks!

And sorry Mensch to hijack your thread.

[Bloodstar]

Well nothing wrong with FitE when a German player wins by playing better and making less mistakes than the Soviet player. I am afraid that is exactly the situation in our game! :D

Still, I'd like to see Soviet defenses last just a little bit longer, as is they collapse immediately, whether they're a regimental or corps sized roadblock... Then again, one of the early challenges for the Soviets is and should be to construct the optimal delaying defense...

There just doesn't seem to be much I can do to slow down the German infantry - that the motorised units would advance really quickly is to be expected.... but any new Soviet lines are always untenable and weaker than German spearheads since the infantry follows right behind!

But FitE rocks!

And sorry Mensch to hijack your thread.


Ahem, I have few ideas for Soviets that I noticed playing Germans but it would be unwise to tell them now here. And I think that that should be considered from the start not now in the middle of the game. Still you are not beaten yet!

Hmmmm... yes, Germans maybe have a little bit higher rate of movement but that was done because to allow them easier encirclements. At the end of 1941. they in fact switched to Russian panje carts for infantry and had really big troubles with trucks (plethora of them break down and finding spare parts for dozens and dozens of European manufacturers is hard).
More than 5000 armored personal carriers is also maybe a bit too much, also cannot be sure about AT guns I think that Germans had a lesser quality in the start but maybe it was done to allow them to easier knock out Soviet tanks... There is also many anomalies in TO&E because German cavarly regiment have more machine guns or mortars than infantry regiment. And many other things. When they beefed up Romanian units for example, Rumanian inf. division have: 96 heavy MG, 108 medium MG, up to 94 60 mm mortars (at the start lesser of course but it fill up), 28 47 mm AT guns, 45 81mm mortars, and better AA than Germany inf. ref - up to 28 dual AAMG, and 8 20 mm AA guns. Compare this to German inf. regiments that are in fact sized down. OK they need time to fill with 100 mm howitzers etc... but Romanians get pretty beefed and fat divisions (31 defense etc...). Strange and ahistorical but what to do... And German HQ corps doesn't have any AA guns.
EDIT: and altough Soviet divisions cannot divide they in fact are not so weak and again we should compare TO&E of Soviet div. and German infantry and then we will see that in some areas Soviets have more weapons and that is not so true for the start of Barbarossa at least, I know that both formations are scaled down to reflect TOAW dynamics, combat results but some choices are strange, and reinforcements rate as well. For example Germans don't have many problems with some weapons and some you must save as much as you can. Trucks you have very much, and mortars, and machine guns etc... armored cars are scaled down and many other things from 4.1.


It is true that FiTE rocks...

And sorry Mencsh that we hijacked your thread but maybe we are doing you a advertisement for finding opponent :laugh:



Mario

[Veers]

Yeah, the scenario lacks some things but designers had to make some compromise... I have a rather large email corespodency with them so I know why they do this or that (mostly) because I have argued many things...
Now I noticed that they put Stug battalion into every regiment of German Sturm division and that division was purely infantry div. until 1943.
Many German div. didn't reconstructed but in the game almost all reconstruct - logically wise in fact, no objections there.

Soviets get's much more formations in 5.0 version but with lesss readiness and supply. So basically you get division that historically was just in the process of forming and activating! So you choose to use it or to wait to get better supply and be more ready. Designers have tested this scenario many times so they know what they doing. Internal support was put there because of mentioned boost in Soviet formations and artyllery etc...In any way Soviets don't get into offensive before winter at least.

Some changes that were proposed on Matrix forum by some guys are in fact ok for Axis and Soviets, so to not handicap only one side. For example no pulling of Soviet units from Poland etc...
EDIT: Toaw is far from perfect and it is hard to design scenario with whole Russo-German war inside but there is games where Soviet win and there is games where Germans wins.


Mario

Mario. I'm certainly not knocking the fine work of Snefen and company. Just making an uninformed observation. :D

[Bloodstar]

Mario. I'm certainly not knocking the fine work of Snefen and company. Just making an uninformed observation. :D

Never made such claims :D

[Veers]

Never made such claims :D

Ok, good stuff. I just read it wrong. :D

[Foggy]

I just got back from camping - maybe the Soviets could have used the Northern Maine black flies for interdiction:surprise: I'll post my SAL from my
now stopped Fite game w/Heinz 57 (Axis) - I've lost Leningrad and soon Rostov but other than that - he's had to pull back units for a defensive line for the 1st winter. Many Soviet armor and more importantly cavalry are waiting for winter:bite:

[Dicke Bertha]

Please do Foggy!

Mensch, if you'll find too few opponents due to the massive thread sabotage ;), I'll volunteer after the vacations.

[Menschenfresser]

Thanks, DB. Even if I don't have an empty slot, I'll take a pick up game from you. :) Let me know when you've had enough sun.