View Full Version : Italian Campaign Development Thread
Was thiknking of doing this for a wile.
Please repst all resources here, for ewasier referabce. I hgave, as I said, email Quisling99 regarding using his map. Wait, no, got a mail delivery error for his Rugged defence email addy. BNeed contact deets for him. Anyone have the,?
Outstanding!
Even Veers gets wasted and cant type! :clown:
I always had an Idea that this would happen! ;)
(note the time stamps, we're in the same time zone)
Bloodstar
12 Jul 07, 05:39
Outstanding!
Even Veers gets wasted and cant type! :clown:
I always had an Idea that this would happen! ;)
(note the time stamps, we're in the same time zone)
LOL
I was thinking that Veers is some TOAW Cyborg :clown:
Boonierat
12 Jul 07, 06:41
Too much Chianti for Veers...Italy is not doing him any good :D
Nah, he's just using a dialectal form of the new English spelling (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68441). :D
Oy, yes, L'zard hit the nail on the head with that one. I guess I'll leave it up for its humourous value. At least I got the title right. :D
I was invited to a social gathering with 5 women. Only way i could enjoy it was to drink glass after glass of wine. :laugh:
So are we doing Italian Campaign or Sicily to Bremmer Pass?
So are we doing Italian Campaign or Sicily to Bremmer Pass?
Well, if I can get permission we'll be using the StoBP map, drawing heavily from the IC OOB/TO&Es/events/house rules, and then adding our own flavour to it.
By the end, we'll, hopefully, have a scenario that plays a hell of a lot better than StoBP and is at a better scale than IC.
EDIT: HA! I am "walking in the light"!
Wyatt
the offers of help still stand so drop me a line
Wyatt
the offers of help still stand so drop me a line
As soon as I get permission from QUisling99 to use the StoP map (providing he does give permission) I'll start handing out job assignments. :D
Dicke Bertha
12 Jul 07, 18:17
As soon as I get permission from QUisling99 to use the StoP map (providing he does give permission) I'll start handing out job assignments. :D
Looking at Quisling's map, I'd reckon it would be overhauled beyond recognition, provided expertise and effort (Silvanski, and others?). Would it therewith not suffice with due recognition in the briefing/header of his initial efforts and wisdom in choice of scope of scenario and use of his map as a starting point?
I assume Quisling's map is the S to BP one?
Sorry but got sun burnt and not thinking straight
Looking at Quisling's map, I'd reckon it would be overhauled beyond recognition, provided expertise and effort (Silvanski, and others?). Would it therewith not suffice with due recognition in the briefing/header of his initial efforts and wisdom in choice of scope of scenario and use of his map as a starting point?
Honestly, I don't know. I certainly agree that it will be overhauled greatly, but I still think it worth the effort to try to contact him. If he cannot be found we may just continue on with his map anyways (though I'll leave that one to a vote or something, as I, personally, don't think we should use something without having permission).
I assu,e quislings map is the S to BP one?
Yes.000000
Honestly, I don't know. I certainly agree that it will be overhauled greatly, but I still think it worth the effort to try to contact him. If he cannot be found we may just continue on with his map anyways (though I'll leave that one to a vote or something, as I, personally, don't think we should use something without having permission).
Lets give him a week Wyatt
I assume Quisling's map is the S to BP one?
Sorry but got sun burnt and not thinking straight
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Lets give him a week Wyatt
I guess.000
EDIT: I love these new title icons. :laugh:
Dicke Bertha
12 Jul 07, 18:27
I don't think Quisling will materialize. A good effort to find him and then go ahead. With due credit.
Forum interface has changed again, hey i havnt got the guitar icon :cry:
I don't think Quisling will materialize. A good effort to find him and then go ahead. With due credit.
Agree with Dickie
Dicke Bertha
12 Jul 07, 18:35
Agree with Polynike
(repetitio est mater studiorum) ;)
Wyatt empty your PM box man
Wyatt empty your PM box man
Not that I'm angry with Don Madox, or anything, but before this, the latest in a series of unnecessary changes to the fourms, I had room for 15 more messages. Now it appears he wants me to spam the forum so I can lay out another 200 posts before I can again have the same 100 message space that I once had.
Until that time I suggest you just send it to me at my email, Jonathan.
As to the guitar. You cannot use them any time soon, unless you just want to spam out a hundred or so posts so you can get your next 'promotion'.
Allright, then. We'll start work on 'er, while at the same time trying to get a hold of Quisling. If we get ahold of him, great. If not, we tried, and we'll give him credit in the credits.
Not that I'm angry with Don Madox, or anything, but before this, the latest in a series of unnecessary changes to the fourms, I had room for 15 more messages. Now it appears he wants me to spam the forum so I can lay out another 200 posts before I can again have the same 100 message space that I once had.
Until that time I suggest you just send it to me at my email, Jonathan.
As to the guitar. You cannot use them any time soon, unless you just want to spam out a hundred or so posts so you can get your next 'promotion'.
No problem dude, was jsut asking about msn, whether you've got one or not?
Not into spamming either
No problem dude, was jsut asking about msn, whether you've got one or not?
Not into spamming either
I don't think I've been on MSN since about 2005.
The only chat things I use are googletalk, that comes with gmail (I only talk to my mother, really with this :laugh:), and the chat function here.
Menschenfresser
12 Jul 07, 19:43
I have a bazillion links I've collected for West Front. I'll post them here when I get a chance (maybe after dinner) along with any other info I've collected. Some of it is relevant for Italy...some not.
I have a bazillion links I've collected for West Front. I'll post them here when I get a chance (maybe after dinner) along with any other info I've collected. Some of it is relevant for Italy...some not.
Thanks, Zac.
Interesting new Avatar: What is it?
Is that Lower Hell i make out? DnD related?
Is that Lower Hell i make out? DnD related?
Ahh, you have better eys than I do (or a lesser resolution :laugh:).
Menschenfresser
12 Jul 07, 21:05
Everything below the city of Dis.
Not DnD related...was browsing Google Images and it came up with one search.
Menschenfresser
12 Jul 07, 21:13
There should be some old favorites in here that we all know. I have no idea if all these work or if they're relevant. Some are specific pages within larger sites I bookmarked and some I just marked the homepage.
http://community-2.webtv.net/XY-MyOtherSelf/HahnsFlyBoys/
http://www.rafcommands.currantbun.com/
http://www.raf.mod.uk/squadrons/sqns_all.html
http://www.ww2guide.com/flak.shtml
http://www.lonesentry.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_Tower#Flakturm_VII_-_Augarten.2C_Vienna
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd5m/g5701m/g5701sm/gct00021/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g5701sm+gct00021))&title2=HQ+Twelfth+Army+Group+situation+map+%3a+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information
http://p072.ezboard.com/fbuildersparadisefrm6.showMessage?topicID=1556.top ic
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Operation_GOLDFLAKE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_divisions_in_WWII
http://www.milhist.net/ordbat/4corpsus.html
http://www.milhist.net/ordbat/index.html
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/ETO-OB/ETOOB-TOC.htm
http://www.45thdivision.org/CampaignsBattles/battles.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/cc.htm
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Article.asp?ArticleID=1222
http://www.milhist.net/mto/taskforce45.html
http://www.ww2-airborne.us/18corps/other_overview.html
http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/article.php3?id_article=160
http://homepages.force9.net/rothwell/11th.htm
http://www.geocities.com/czechandslovakthings/WW2_CzSkB.htm
http://www.frankambrose.com/pages/chart.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/III/maps/AAF-III-3.jpg
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/anzio/72-19.htm
http://www.armyairforces.com/dborganization.asp
http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables.html
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=31
http://members.tripod.com/squiz63/medium.htm
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/
http://www.feldgrau.com/
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/winterline/winter-fm.htm#cont
http://members.aol.com/Custermen85/Units/GermanOrg.htm
http://www.aviation-history.com/index-aircraft.htm
http://members.northrock.bm/~ehetzel/57th.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/III/AAF-III-5.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USMA/WEurope1/WEurope1-2.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/OOB/index.html
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-2Ita.html
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/inhaltsverzeichnis1.htm
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/2072/LWOB.html
http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/atlas%20table%20of%20contents.htm
http://www.guernsey.net/~mlihou/organisation_and_equipment_of_205_Group.htm
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/orbat290644.html
http://members.aol.com/Custermen85/Reference/Revision.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/sfrance/sfrance.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/UnitedStates/united_states_infantry_battalion.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAAF_bombardment_group
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-2Ita-c1-5.html
http://www.warfarehq.com/index.php?page=links.shtml
http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_101342/tm.htm
http://www.magweb.com/sample/ww2/ww2toc.htm
http://www.usaaf.net/digest/2a.htm
http://panzergeneral.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/ww2/oob/23oct1942_Allied_Airforce_Egypt.txt
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37693.html
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german_aa/gaa3_german_antiaircraft_air_force.html
http://www.tsj.net/avstats/aaa.html
http://www.feldgrau.com/weaprod.html
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/german-antiaircraft-defense-flak.html
http://www.tdg.nu/TO&Es/1939-1945/german_inf_div_43-45.htm
http://www.ordersofbattle.com/UnitIndex.aspx
http://niehorster.orbat.com/013_usa/44_org/misc/ranger_inf-rifle.html
EDIT: I noticed many of them concern the airforce/Luftwaffe & flak.
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 00:01
Ah, here it is y'all are hanging out :ciao:
About the map, modding the Quisling map seems to me the best way to go...its scale provides the space necessary for providing more detail... escarpments aye Wyatt ;-)
as I already mentioned the proportions are pretty accurate, some coastline areas can be improved... I tcompared some portions of the map vs Google earth, zoomed in to the same size, noticed some corrections/adjustments will be needed but nothing which can't be overcome... city placement is also quite accurate, here and there a city will have to be moved a hex or so...
for the rail system I'll have to research the 1940-ies rail network vs post-war expansion too see if what's on the map hasn't been broken up or came nto being after the war...
it sure would be nice if we could locate Mr Quisling
Ah, here it is y'all are hanging out :ciao:
About the map, modding the Quisling map seems to me the best way to go...its scale provides the space necessary for providing more detail... escarpments aye Wyatt ;-)
as I already mentioned the proportions are pretty accurate, some coastline areas can be improved... I tcompared some portions of the map vs Google earth, zoomed in to the same size, noticed some corrections/adjustments will be needed but nothing which can't be overcome... city placement is also quite accurate, here and there a city will have to be moved a hex or so...
for the rail system I'll have to research the 1940-ies rail network vs post-war expansion too see if what's on the map hasn't been broken up or came nto being after the war...
it sure would be nice if we could locate Mr Quisling
A) Good. Map man found.
B) Talk to Stefan (Telumar) regarding the Italian rail net. He gave me three maps that would help extensively for the Italian trans net. I can't remember the site he put them on for me, or whether it will still be there. So, Stefan, where are they? :D
C) It would be nice to locate him, but we are making a completely different scenario, and most of the data we use will be from Marc Custer's IC and from our own research. As well, the map will barely be recognizable by the time we're done with it, and we'll mention him in the credits.
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 00:20
A) Good. Map man found.
Right-oh :smoke:
B) Talk to Stefan (Telumar) regarding the Italian rail net.
Okidoki... I'll also look up stuff myself... There sure will be a trainspotters site around
C) It would be nice to locate him [Quisling], ... the map will barely be recognizable by the time we're done with it...
You bet-ya it will ;)
... and we'll mention him in the credits.
Of course
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 00:33
Stupid me, I have nice reference material to start with... page 64 and further in Simon Goodenough's "War Maps"
...and this online
http://www.trenidicarta.it/reconstruction/index.html
no maps but descriptions of 1943-1946 railway reconstruction by the allies... it gives info per line/section
Stupid me, I have nice reference material to start with... page 64 and further in Simon Goodenough's "War Maps"
...and this online
http://www.trenidicarta.it/reconstruction/index.html
no maps but descriptions of 1943-1946 railway reconstruction by the allies... it gives info per line/section
Good.00000
How's the map modding going, Silvain? :D
B) Talk to Stefan (Telumar) regarding the Italian rail net. He gave me three maps that would help extensively for the Italian trans net. I can't remember the site he put them on for me, or whether it will still be there. So, Stefan, where are they?
I uploaded them once to rapidshare, but they are gone now, they keep the files 30 days i think, but i can upload them again. Courtesy Goran W. (http://www.mannaberg.se) from the tdg forum, btw. - I got them from him.
Wyatt and others, did you download the .pdf from the AAR thread?
I think i can help with sorting out OOB/TOE things together with Jonathan.
@Jonathan: What's with our GiO game?
How's the map modding going, Silvain? :D
Wyatt - i am shocked. It's 10:45 AM here..are you still wake or again wake? :laugh:
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 06:10
How's the map modding going, Silvain? :D
I made some changes in the Naples area for try-out :smoke:
You'll receive a "before/after" example
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 06:11
Wyatt - i am shocked. It's 10:45 AM here..are you still wake or again wake? :laugh:
... and 4:10 am here... I work variable shifts, my internal clock is constant in jet-lag mode :argh:
@ Stefan, awaiting your turn, turn 4 i think?
Wyatt im off on holiday on Sunday so what can i start working on before i leave?
@ Stefan, awaiting your turn, turn 4 i think?
Turn 5..i have already sent it. And resend it just now. Take your time, and enjoy your holiday.
@Stefan: I did download the pdf and crusied through it briefly.
@Stefan and Jonathan: You guys will be OOB. Basically, I want to import Custer's OOB, because it was far better than Quisling's, into our "Italian Campaign at 5km/hex". However, I want to check and rechek the entry and withdrawal dates of each unit, and the TO&Es. I'm thinking that we'll use a modified version of the WWII.exe, so we'll have to revuild the units from scratch, but I'll be doing the button pushing there. I just need the research done so I know what buttons to press. I'll be modifying the WWII.exe is because I plan on having seperate squads for each Allied nation, as they all had different manpower problems in Italy.
So, Stefan and Jonathan: Research arival and departure dates of each unit on Custer's list and make sure he has it right (I am pretty sure he has left out, for instance, the withdrawal of the I Canadian Corps form Italy to NW Europe in early '45, so I'm pretty sure his OOb isn't perfect and we can improve upon it). As well, research the TO&Es, and make sure he has that right. You guys both seem to be hooked in well with the Axis side of things, so, I suppose, make that shine first and then we'll switch to the Allies (unless you wish to research both at the same time, or take a different side each). You guys work it out.
The other thing, regarding the OOB, is I want options. Was there an SS division that could have been sent here? Would the Aussies have ended up here if X event happened? I want this scenario to have the ability to be played totally historically while, at the same time, having (realistic) strategic options available to the player. Ideally TOs will look somethhing like this:
Op 1. HISTORICAL: Replace UK 7th Armoured Division with CDN 5th Armoured Division, form I Canadian Corps
Op 2. OPTION: Do NOT replace UK 7th Armoured with CDN 5th Armoured, do NOT form I CDN Corps
The only reason the Canadian 5th Armoured ended up in Italy is because the Candians wanted it to.
If we know the why of a unit's deployment in theatre, then we can come up with realistic alternatives that will have realistic benefits/detractions.
The other things we'll have to do is research the replacements. As far as I know this is the most difficult thing to get historically accurate, and often this is modified, through playtests, to a rate that makes the game 'feel' right. I'd like to get a really good starting point form research and then adjust it, if need be to make it 'feel' right.
@Silvain: Excellent. I look forward to seeing your initial work. Get Stefan to upload those maps again and download them. They are great sources.
I guess I'll announce now (I think I floated this earlier, last time I thought of taking this challenge up), my biggest independent idea:
Also, if there were more events I would have fine tunes the weather. It is one of the main characteristics of the Italian Campaign. Rain, rain and more rain which equals mud, thicker mud and quagmire mud.
My biggest independent idea for the Italian campaign is weather related. I've been toying with the idea of, during winter and/or fall and/or spring, giving both sides variable negative shock. This would, theoretically, encourage the Allies not to attack as much during these seasons, and if they did attack, their results would not be as promising. As well, the negative shock would force formations into reorg, making them unavailable for offensive action. All this would make beginning a major offensive in the poor weather a dicey proposition, as it should be. That is it! Shock events tied to the weather effecting the Allies. The formations that suffer reorganization is exactly the way to do it when combined with the weather.
Variable Defined: I would have a number of events that would fire during the poor seasons that would variate shock up and down (never above 100%) on unknown turns between a range (the range being the length of the season). This way a player could attack and hope for the best, but, again, it would be a gamble.
The reason for negative shock to both sides, and not just the Allies, is that if it was just done to the Allies then the Germans could, unhistorically, attack during these periods, knowing the Allies are weak. I would think that the shock would be negative for both and slightly lower for the Allies. Of course effecting both sides. Even with all the experience of mud on the Eastern Front the Germans could never negate the effects themselves. Mud is a univeral misery. This idea will require a lot of playtesting. Maybe not as much as you think. It will work.
As well, as you did escarpment hexes. But, also, more major rivers, as, during the advance in Italy, Allied troops would often bridge a creek only to have that bridge washed away when the creek became a raging river after a bit of rain. Since this cannot be simulated in TOAW, I thought just making them super-rivers would be a good idea. So did I. But to counter such a terrain move would require more bridging equipment. Or a breakdown of the divisional engineer bridging assets into seperate line units. That is the problem, terrain that doesn't totally reflect weather. Be it snow, flash floods of rivers, or moutains that become impassible with various weather effects of snow or floods. My concept was that the river + mud would often prohibit movement of most units. But it isn't enough somethimes. What is impassible in Italy in the winter may be crossable in summer without a bridge. There are a few that may qualify, at least along the coastal areas. It would take a bit of research. Certainly the Volturno qualifies, at least sections. I was tempted to do that with the Arno River too, but there just wasn't the evidence to support a year round super river. An other technique we have used was adding rocky and/or marsh hexes with the river hexes to get the movement effects we wanted. Of course in the mountains escarpment is often used. But I tried to base their use of topographic maps where it seemed logical. It also depends on the scale of a scenario in what to use. The 10 km per hex lands about in the upper middle in using various terrain to effect movement. With the smaller scales terrain refinement works the best.
EDIT: For my last post I was still awake. For this post I am again awake. :laugh: I couldn't sleep, but I'm going, right now, to give it another shot.
Good Night and Good Luck.
Very interesting.
Regarding OOB and TOE research, i am best informed about things related with the Anzio landings and german reinforcements that entered Italy in case "Richard", respectively case "Marder" (the german reinforcement plan in case of an allied amphibious landing) .
This leads me to answer one of your questions/satisfy the need for options:
The other thing, regarding the OOB, is I want options. Was there an SS division that could have been sent here?
It was discussed that 9th SS Panzer should be send to Italy to reinforce the german counterattack at Anzio, but while this demand was even backed up by OKW, Hitler denied it and Kesselring and von Mackensen (14th Army) had to be content with what has been send from the replacement army.
@Jonathan: When do you come back from your holiday - and what is your special area of interest? What would you prefer to work on?
@Wyatt: Do you want to enforce the players to do the Salerno invasion? Or do you want to leave the decision to the players?
Stefan, im back on the 20th July then leaving again on the 28th until 14th August. My area of expertise is the German Army. I collect TR militaria and actually have some stuff from soldiers that actually fought in italy. ON a personal note my grandad was at Cassino.
So i can take the German OOB for this one and try to get what Wyatt is asking for.
One general question, is there a way of exproting the OOB from the scenario onto say Excel, to facilitate the work?
As regards 9th SS. its deployment in Italy would have been very difficlut as it was needed on the Ost Front, then was quickly pulled out and sent to Normandy and was then caught up in the Arnhem battles.
OK work started on Axis OOB. Im working down the list as we have it on the scenario editor, ie starting with II/III Gruppe KG 54 and so on. We keeping the same unit designations as Custer?
excellent luftwaffe site BTW http://www.ww2.dk
Stefan, im back on the 20th July then leaving again on the 28th until 14th August. My area of expertise is the German Army. I collect TR militaria and actually have some stuff from soldiers that actually fought in italy. ON a personal note my grandad was at Cassino.
So i can take the German OOB for this one and try to get what Wyatt is asking for.
One general question, is there a way of exproting the OOB from the scenario onto say Excel, to facilitate the work?
As regards 9th SS. its deployment in Italy would have been very difficlut as it was needed on the Ost Front, then was quickly pulled out and sent to Normandy and was then caught up in the Arnhem battles.
Don't know, it could have been possible, from the Lexikon der Wehrmacht website:
Datum Armeekorps Armee Heeresgruppe Ort
Januar Reserve - D Ypern
März Reserve 19. Armee D Südfrankreich
April XXXXVIII 4. Pz. Armee Nordukraine Tarnopol
Be it as it is, we can discuss this stuff later.
We keeping the same unit designations as Custer?
I think basically yes, but the Regiments will have to be broken down to battalions due to map scale (Wyatt?), and an "Abt." instead a "Bn" would be necessary with the appropriate units (PzJägers, Panzer, etc)
Looks like i'll have to take a look at the allied side (as i have the according books currently at hand).
Jonathan, can you send me your results then?
Stefan, ive got Reynolds book on the 2nd SS Panzer Corps and will have to look at it in detail to try and work it out. It may well be that the Hohenstaufen was still completing its formation and was still trainning its personnel, awaiting equipment and so on.
Ive found some discrpencies with II/III KG 54 already. Mostly to do with numbers of aircraft and entry into the theatre. The II Gruppe did not come into Italy from Vienna until 9th October but Custer has it enter on turn 2, ie September 12th.
For our cross atlantic partners i will be using european dating, ie dd-mm-yy to avoid any confusion can we all stick to this format please?
It will take a while to sort out TO&E's and OOB's so Stefan do you want results sent periodically or once im done?
Im taking 9th Septmeber 43 as our start date and in the interests of fairness where exact numbers cannot be found or verified im going to put down the TO&E as it stood on the month the unit enters the theatre. Is that OK with the powers that be?
Looking at the S to BP map i think an airfield needs to be placed South of Brescia to represent Ghedi, I/KG 30 was based there 9.9.43
Stefan, ive got Reynolds book on the 2nd SS Panzer Corps and will have to look at it in detail to try and work it out. It may well be that the Hohenstaufen was still completing its formation and was still trainning its personnel, awaiting equipment and so on.
It's listed as "in Aufstellung" from Jan-Sept 43 at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de
Ive found some discrpencies with II/III KG 54 already. Mostly to do with numbers of aircraft and entry into the theatre. The II Gruppe did not come into Italy from Vienna until 9th October but Custer has it enter on turn 2, ie September 12th.
Bene.
For our cross atlantic partners i will be using european dating, ie dd-mm-yy to avoid any confusion can we all stick to this format please?
as Silvain is from Belgium and just living in Texas..
It will take a while to sort out TO&E's and OOB's so Stefan do you want results sent periodically or once im done?
Periodically. The thing is, i have quite detailed informations on some formations at the beginning of 44, i also have info (from the web and thus more or less "unconfirmed") about the use of italian armour by german units, something that hasn't been considered by Custer. I will send you what i have later.
Im taking 9th Septmeber 43 as our start date and in the interests of fairness where exact numbers cannot be found or verified im going to put down the TO&E as it stood on the month the unit enters the theatre. Is that OK with the powers that be?
Yup.
I already sent two pdf files to Wyatt regarding the allied air force.
Btw, do you know this: http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/ and especially this: http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/Panzerkeil.html where this: http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/heer-obscure.html could be of special interest?
Yep Stefan familiar with those sites, also with the commando supremo site for italian units
Ill send you the luftwaffe when im done with it. Using the link i provided above as my main source as well as some of my books on the theatre. Im off to a wedding in an hour so ill try and get it to you before i leave on sunday
@Wyatt: Do you want to enforce the players to do the Salerno invasion? Or do you want to leave the decision to the players?
I'm thinking we may have two scenarios: Italian Campaign at 5km/hex and Italian Campaign at 5km/hex HISTORICAL. (alternately, may set this up via a TO at the beginning of the scenario).
The HISTORICAL version will, of course, be historical. In that way, we'll start the exact same time as Custer, with 8th Army landed and 5th Army about to land at Peatsmo and Salerno.
With the non-historical the player will have some options. Salerno and Napels at least, possibly something else, too, we'll see if we can come up with anything viable (the important thing here is that the non-historical will be able to have option, but options that actually could have happened). So we may begin this one a bit earlier (the date of the Reggio Di Calbria landings so the player can choose not to land there, the Allies shouldn't have landed there, anyways. They likely still won't be able to land further up than Naples/Salerno, but maybe the whole of the 8th Army can land at Taranto, instead of Reggio Di Calbria.
One general question, is there a way of exproting the OOB from the scenario onto say Excel, to facilitate the work?
Umm....I think it can be exported to a txt using the F4 or F5 button, don't know about excell (might be an idea for the future of TOAW3).
I think basically yes, but the Regiments will have to be broken down to battalions due to map scale (Wyatt?), and an "Abt." instead a "Bn" would be necessary with the appropriate units (PzJägers, Panzer, etc)
Not 100% sure if we'll have to break 'em down. Far as I know the way things were in IC, you always had to have a few brigades/rgts in a hex because of the scale. With 5km/hex we may be allright with Brigades, and the player can break 'em down if he'd like. Jonathan, you've actually played both, what do you think?
For our cross atlantic partners i will be using european dating, ie dd-mm-yy to avoid any confusion can we all stick to this format please?
as Silvain is from Belgium and just living in Texas..
There's more Euros on the project then Canadians (or those crazies from the States), and I like the Euro date better, so we can go ahead and use EuRo time.
Im taking 9th Septmeber 43 as our start date
Probably that, also, for the non-historical could be a few days alrier (the Reggio Di Calbria landing date, which I can't remember the date of right now).
in the interests of fairness where exact numbers cannot be found or verified im going to put down the TO&E as it stood on the month the unit enters the theatre. Is that OK with the powers that be?
What you mean to say is that if you can't find exact numbers, ou'll just mark their authorized TO&E down? Sounds good.
Glad to see you guys have hit the ground running.
Nobody commented on my biggest idea? Is that a bad sign? :laugh:
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 14:42
Looking at the S to BP map i think an airfield needs to be placed South of Brescia to represent Ghedi, I/KG 30 was based there 9.9.43
Note taken, and Eurodate of course
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 14:49
The France portion of the map will be excluded. Left of hex row 14 I suggest
Do we keep Sardinia/Corsica?
I'm off this weekend (surprisingly) so I'll be able to dig into it real good
My list of changes will grow, here's a start:
The Northern portion will remain, Veers wants to crawl up the Brenner Pass ;-)
The two non-playable hexes of San Marino will be included.
The Strait Of Messina will be slightly altered
Bay of Naples ... various coastline modifications... often it's just a matter of adding/deleting a land hex... Google Earth is excellent to compare to
piero1971
13 Jul 07, 14:59
do you have the pre-september 1943 disposition of Italian Royal forces?
I have that if you want.
also, note that the Italian forces were for the most part disarmed by the Germans, but this was not at all a given.
it was the high italian command usual incompetence and a lot of luck that alloed the germans such a easy take over of Italy on september 8th and 9th.
had Italian forces resisted - as they could - (and you can make this a special option in the game . i.e. on turn one, players can agree to keep the italians in the game (some will still disappear, based on a % event, and some will still pass on the RSI side (do you also need a list of those), but some will fight on - and will be quickly destroyed if the allied dont' relieve them - but historically, there was a good chance that Rome would not fall and that could have changed massively the nature of the campaign....)
Silvanski
13 Jul 07, 15:00
BTW what's the name of the town where Clint eastwood and co went to look for treasures in the hilarious "Kelly's Heroes" ? hehe
Some food for Silvain (are you still there or already in the weekend?)
http://rapidshare.com/files/42757316/Italia_aero.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/42758020/Italy_Transportation.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/42758357/Roma.TIF
The first two are large files, be patient. Have fun.
The France portion of the map will be excluded. Left of hex row 14 I suggest
Your call. Historically Anvil had very little impact on the Italian Campaign. I really don't think it would be the Italian Camaign if we let it have influence.
Do we keep Sardinia/Corsica?
I'm thinking yes, only for thir use by Allied air crews (unless they weren't used by the Allies in WWII. Someone find out what utility they had for the Allies.
I'm off this weekend (surprisingly) so I'll be able to dig into it real good
My list of changes will grow, here's a start:
The Northern portion will remain, Veers wants to crawl up the Brenner Pass ;-)
The Strait Of Messina will be slightly altered
Bay of Naples ... various coastline modifications... often it's just a matter of adding/deleting a land hex... Google Earth is excellent to compare to
Go for it.
The two non-playable hexes of San Marino will be included.
Does anyone know if fighting actually took place in San Marino, or did both sides avoid the little country?
do you have the pre-september 1943 disposition of Italian Royal forces?
I have that if you want.
also, note that the Italian forces were for the most part disarmed by the Germans, but this was not at all a given.
it was the high italian command usual incompetence and a lot of luck that alloed the germans such a easy take over of Italy on september 8th and 9th.
had Italian forces resisted - as they could - (and you can make this a special option in the game . i.e. on turn one, players can agree to keep the italians in the game (some will still disappear, based on a % event, and some will still pass on the RSI side (do you also need a list of those), but some will fight on - and will be quickly destroyed if the allied dont' relieve them - but historically, there was a good chance that Rome would not fall and that could have changed massively the nature of the campaign....)
Unfortunately war is often a lot of luck/other factors that cannot be properly simulated in TOAW (Take France 1940, for example). I think to have a chance of the Italians staying as a fighting force for the Allies would so drastically change the mix of the Italian Campaign so as to make it nothing like the Italian Campaign that happened. So it's my opinion that we should have the Italians fall apart as they did historicaly, simply to keep the Italian Campaign somewhat recognizable. If the Italians were to stick around, for instance, how would we be able to change the victory contditions to account for this?
I am, as always, open to other thoughts and opinions.
BTW what's the name of the town where Clint eastwood and co went to look for treasures in the hilarious "Kelly's Heroes" ? hehe
Don't know.
Some food for Silvain (are you still there or already in the weekend?)
http://rapidshare.com/files/42757316/Italia_aero.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/42758020...sportation.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/42758357/Roma.TIF
The first two are large files, be patient. Have fun.
These are good files, thanks again Stefan and Goran W.
I'll be gone until tomorrow evening. My father and his wife are in town for a week, so I'll be more scare during this time, but still likely able to make it on once a day.
Until tomorrow.
Silvanski
14 Jul 07, 02:49
Some food for Silvain (are you still there or already in the weekend?)The first two are large files, be patient. Have fun.
Grazie Telu, but it'll take a while before I get all three files in hehe
Worked 1400-2300 , off this weekend :cool:
Some ideas
Mte Cassino area can do with an upgrade... there are two other peaks southwest of it, not on the Quisling map, approach to Cassino is a bit too easy
Escarpments next to rivers- exact placement to be worked out after checking maps and historical bridgeheads
NO permanent fortifications , Gothic and other lines... imho this is not a pre-chewed scenario, it starts at the very beginning of the campaign with the historic OOB... from there on it's up to the player... the German player will have to decide where to build his lines... get yer shovels out
Silvanski
14 Jul 07, 03:14
You want all rivers turned into super-rivers Veers?
About rail... I was reading the site about railway reconstruction... retreating Germans blew rail lines ahead of the Allied advance
Can't be simulated in TOAW... units can destroy and repair bridges yeah, but rail can only be repaired...
We can't let the scenario begin with a bunch of destroyed rail in German held Italy, that would lobside their supply
Grazie Telu, but it'll take a while before I get all three files in hehe
Worked 1400-2300 , off this weekend :cool:
Some ideas
Mte Cassino area can do with an upgrade... there are two other peaks southwest of it, not on the Quisling map, approach to Cassino is a bit too easy
Escarpments next to rivers- exact placement to be worked out after checking maps and historical bridgeheads
NO permanent fortifications , Gothic and other lines... imho this is not a pre-chewed scenario, it starts at the very beginning of the campaign with the historic OOB... from there on it's up to the player... the German player will have to decide where to build his lines... get yer shovels out
damn good idea
Ok guys heres a sit rep. Luftwaffe OOB is complete. Im going to try and pass everything onto an excel doc and mail it tonight to Wyatt and Stefan. All entry and withdrawl dates have been revamped and revised as well as strength and positioning of units. Just to let you guys knoe how ive gone about things, ive been through the OOB as it stands in the scenario at the moment. Once ive done all these units ill compare with Stefans document and from there add any missing units. I might include recon and transport units but i do not know how viable and useful these units are in TOAW. It would seem very ahistorical to me to have Ju 52's being used as bombers in 1944.
any of you have any good links to RSI order of battle sites and TO/E?
thanks
jonathan
sorry for hogging the thread but i came across this tidy site that might help all us involved in this project
http://members.aol.com/ItalyWW2/History.htm
Mte Cassino area can do with an upgrade... there are two other peaks southwest of it, not on the Quisling map, approach to Cassino is a bit too easy
Good.
Escarpments next to rivers- exact placement to be worked out after checking maps and historical bridgeheads
Good.
NO permanent fortifications , Gothic and other lines... imho this is not a pre-chewed scenario, it starts at the very beginning of the campaign with the historic OOB... from there on it's up to the player... the German player will have to decide where to build his lines... get yer shovels out
Good plan. We'll include some labour battalions, with a House Rule that they not be included in fighting.
You want all rivers turned into super-rivers Veers?
But, also, more major rivers, as, during the advance in Italy, Allied troops would often bridge a creek only to have that bridge washed away when the creek became a raging river after a bit of rain. Since this cannot be simulated in TOAW, I thought just making them super-rivers would be a good idea. So did I. But to counter such a terrain move would require more bridging equipment. Or a breakdown of the divisional engineer bridging assets into seperate line units. That is the problem, terrain that doesn't totally reflect weather. Be it snow, flash floods of rivers, or moutains that become impassible with various weather effects of snow or floods. My concept was that the river + mud would often prohibit movement of most units. But it isn't enough somethimes. What is impassible in Italy in the winter may be crossable in summer without a bridge. There are a few that may qualify, at least along the coastal areas. It would take a bit of research. Certainly the Volturno qualifies, at least sections. I was tempted to do that with the Arno River too, but there just wasn't the evidence to support a year round super river. An other technique we have used was adding rocky and/or marsh hexes with the river hexes to get the movement effects we wanted. Of course in the mountains escarpment is often used. But I tried to base their use of topographic maps where it seemed logical. It also depends on the scale of a scenario in what to use. The 10 km per hex lands about in the upper middle in using various terrain to effect movement. With the smaller scales terrain refinement works the best.
What do you guys get out of that reply from Marc?
About rail... I was reading the site about railway reconstruction... retreating Germans blew rail lines ahead of the Allied advance
Can't be simulated in TOAW... units can destroy and repair bridges yeah, but rail can only be repaired...
We can't let the scenario begin with a bunch of destroyed rail in German held Italy, that would lobside their supply
100% Allied rail destuction. (Or a high non-100% percentage).
Ok guys heres a sit rep. Luftwaffe OOB is complete. Im going to try and pass everything onto an excel doc and mail it tonight to Wyatt and Stefan. All entry and withdrawl dates have been revamped and revised as well as strength and positioning of units. Just to let you guys knoe how ive gone about things, ive been through the OOB as it stands in the scenario at the moment. Once ive done all these units ill compare with Stefans document and from there add any missing units. I might include recon and transport units but i do not know how viable and useful these units are in TOAW. It would seem very ahistorical to me to have Ju 52's being used as bombers in 1944.
Excellent. I look forward to seeing it.
Recon units are represented in Theatre Recon. There is no way to use recon units in game (damnit). What we can so is have the Germans' Theatre Recon get a boost every time a new recon uni comes in theatre for 1-6 months (representing the ammount of time it would get doing recon work before it was shot out of the sky :laugh:).
Transports are represented in air trans. Although I don't think they'll get any in this scenario. I don't remember them using it...
any of you have any good links to RSI order of battle sites and TO/E?
Did you check the list of links Zac posted in this thread?
sorry for hogging the thread but i came across this tidy site that might help all us involved in this project
Excellent.
Luftwaffe OOB complete and about to be mailed. Im off on holiday tomorrow and back on sunday. ill carry on then. Off on a cruise first two weeks of august as well.
Luftwaffe OOB complete and about to be mailed. Im off on holiday tomorrow and back on sunday. ill carry on then. Off on a cruise first two weeks of august as well.
Have fun, man!
Wyatt, have you had a look at the mail i sent? is it all clear?
Silvanski
14 Jul 07, 17:44
Bare with me guys, this can take a bit longer than expected, or maybe not...
I've encountered various anomalies in several portions of the map...
Whole sections have to be build up from scratch... which means erase all landmark features...hill/mountain and vegetables err...vegetation etc, leave cities in place ... 99% are OK... and then start drawing in rivers, build elevations around them etc ...it can be a pain correcting road and rail so these will be rebuild as well...
That's gonna be faster than going with the toothcomb through the map..
And by clipping off a bunch of France I'll have more place names, cuz we like place names ;-)
Trust me it's gonna be a good one ;-)
Of that we have no doubt Silvan
Wyatt, have you had a look at the mail i sent? is it all clear?
I got your mail and replied. I haven't gone through the OOB yet, however. And anything unclear will be able to wait till you get back, mate. Have a good vacation, eh? :D
Bare with me guys, this can take a bit longer than expected, or maybe not...
I've encountered various anomalies in several portions of the map...
Whole sections have to be build up from scratch... which means erase all landmark features...hill/mountain and vegetables err...vegetation etc, leave cities in place ... 99% are OK... and then start drawing in rivers, build elevations around them etc ...it can be a pain correcting road and rail so these will be rebuild as well...
That's gonna be faster than going with the toothcomb through the map..
And by clipping off a bunch of France I'll have more place names, cuz we like place names ;-)
Trust me it's gonna be a good one ;-)
All the time you need, Silvain. Just make 'er good.
any of you have any good links to RSI order of battle sites and TO/E?
thanks
jonathan
I know you're gone now, hope you'll encounter this post: Feldgrau has a good section about the RSI: http://www.feldgrau.com/rsi.html which lists a (probably) complete OOB.
An other technique we have used was adding rocky and/or marsh hexes with the river hexes to get the movement effects we wanted.
What do you guys get out of that reply from Marc?
Something i did with the Moletta River in Anzio (still in work). But again, it is good to simulate weather conditions in one season, not through the entire year.
Rest of Custer's mail/referring to the weather/rivers issue:
Difficult topic, we're very soon at the limits of the toaw engine if it comes to weather simulation. (Ralph?! Again...we need a better weather simulation). I.e. I couldn't get the Anzio Map historically muddy despite heavy precipitation, storm, warm and cold fronts and had to use marsh terrain..
Maybe if Movement Bias would be adjustable by event in the next or a future patch something could be done.
Too many maybes, no solution.:nervous:
Can anyone open Polynike's LuftOOB? File ending should be .xls, but is .xlsx and renaming it to .xls gives an error message when i try to open it in excel. (Using Office 2003, XP)
Can anyone open Polynike's LuftOOB? File ending should be .xls, but is .xlsx and renaming it to .xls gives an error message when i try to open it in excel. (Using Office 2003, XP)
No dice here, either.
Rest of Custer's mail/referring to the weather/rivers issue:
Difficult topic, we're very soon at the limits of the toaw engine if it comes to weather simulation. (Ralph?! Again...we need a better weather simulation). I.e. I couldn't get the Anzio Map historically muddy despite heavy precipitation, storm, warm and cold fronts and had to use marsh terrain..
Maybe if Movement Bias would be adjustable by event in the next or a future patch something could be done.
Too many maybes, no solution.:nervous:
There's no doubt Italian rivers made life difficult. I think we (Silvain) need to take detailed looks at the peninsula (as he is doing) and then make judgement calls on weather to
a) make a section of river a super river (moreso near the coast)
b) add a marsh hex to make it difficult, but not impossible
c) add small/light escarpments to make it difficult, but not impossible (morso in mountain areas).
Otherwise, we could make all (most) rivers super rivers. Opinions (with reasons)?
There's no doubt Italian rivers made life difficult. I think we (Silvain) need to take detailed looks at the peninsula (as he is doing) and then make judgement calls on weather to
a) make a section of river a super river (moreso near the coast)
b) add a marsh hex to make it difficult, but not impossible
c) add small/light escarpments to make it difficult, but not impossible (morso in mountain areas).
Otherwise, we could make all (most) rivers super rivers. Opinions (with reasons)?
I don't like the idea of making all rivers superrivers..i would keep normal rivers and support steps a)-c). The thing is, i don't like the idea of adding additional ferry bridging equipment that wasn't there.
Can anyone open Polynike's LuftOOB? File ending should be .xls, but is .xlsx and renaming it to .xls gives an error message when i try to open it in excel. (Using Office 2003, XP)
No dice here, either.
Managed to open it. As an Office 2003 user you need to install an additional converter from Microsoft for .xlsx files. Office 2007 uses this format.
Wyatt, did you recieve the allied air forces pdf?
I don't like the idea of making all rivers superrivers..i would keep normal rivers and support steps a)-c). The thing is, i don't like the idea of adding additional ferry bridging equipment that wasn't there.
Wasn't thinking of adding additional bridging equipment, just seperating this, and engineers, out into seperate 'bridging' units.
Managed to open it. As an Office 2003 user you need to install an additional converter from Microsoft for .xlsx files. Office 2007 uses this format.
Ahh, you get it from microsoft.com?
Wyatt, did you recieve the allied air forces pdf?
No.
Need office 2007 to open file. Well im off but needed one last TOAW fix before i left :D
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 05:18
Sicily is almost finished... until a decision is taken about the rivers I draw 'em in as super rivers, can make alterations afterwards...
I'd say that in hills and mountains they can be normal rivers, on flatland super rivers
Here's a screenie of the Messina Strait
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i906699_MessinaStrait.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com)
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 05:27
Here's an example of rivers and escarpments (from the original Russian War)
Notice that escarpments are used in combination with minor river
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i906729_escarpments.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com)
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 06:22
Monte Cassino area...
The peak is now next to Via 6, lots of changes to roads rivers hill areas... it should be closer to reality
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i906836_cassino.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com)
Wasn't thinking of adding additional bridging equipment, just seperating this, and engineers, out into seperate 'bridging' units.
Hm..
Ahh, you get it from microsoft.com?
Yes. But meanwhile Jonathan sent me an office 2003 excel file. Did you get one, too?
I think i will scan several maps that show some regions (among them Cassino) in great detail and could be of interest for Silvain. Depending on resulting file size i will post it here, too.
Resent the two mails with the allied air force OOB in .pdf to you, Wyatt. Maybe look in your Spam folder, too.
Hm..
Hm..? Is that all you've got for me? :laugh:
We'll see how things work out. I think we'll end up using a combination of all of our options, based on the terrain we see in real life.
Yes. But meanwhile Jonathan sent me an office 2003 excel file. Did you get one, too?
I think i will scan several maps that show some regions (among them Cassino) in great detail and could be of interest for Silvain. Depending on resulting file size i will post it here, too.
Resent the two mails with the allied air force OOB in .pdf to you, Wyatt. Maybe look in your Spam folder, too.
Got Jono's and got yours.
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 14:09
I think i will scan several maps that show some regions (among them Cassino) in great detail and could be of interest for Silvain.
Excellent Telu. Cassino was one of the first areas I went to look for
I'm gonna work my way up the toe now.
Monte Cassino area...
The peak is now next to Via 6, lots of changes to roads rivers hill areas... it should be closer to reality
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i906836_cassino.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com)
Silvain, I notice three peaks in your screenie that were not there on the original map. I then compared it with the South Italy trans map (nice job on the new rail placement, btw), and couldn't find height data on those three peaks. So I'm wondering what source you used to get that, and a what height are you deciding to put a peak on the mountain?
EDIT: He, also notice that he had the Garigliano bend the exact opposite way than it does. I see you have it correct. Good job. Also, I hope we'll have enough place names for all the rivers. (Place names is a problem I have already run into in EA, very annoying).
13.9.7 Escarpments
Since only Mountain units can move across Major Escarpments,
they are the only units that can attack across them. Their losses
will be three times the normal for the attack. Combat across
Minor Escarpments results in twice the losses for the Attacker.
Artillery and Headquarters are not as affected; Artillery attacks
at 150% Strength if it is “looking down” on the target across an
Escarpment. This is defined as an artillery unit, in the hex that
contains the escarpment terrain feature, firing across that hexside
feature at an adjacent unit.
When placing the escarpments, we need to keep this (the definition of 'looking down') in mind. I don't know about you guys, but I could never remember which side was lookign up and which was looking down.
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 16:21
The peaks besides Mte Cassino are (top down) Sammucro, Rotundo and Cesima (+3000 ft) featured on Goodenough's Cassino map.
Thanks abt the railway, I checked the line near Cassino, noticed that the station is located southeast of the town.
I'm modding the toe of Italy now, corrected/added/erased various roads and railways... too many major roads in hills were drawn as major road, they are in fact minor road on the Telumar scans... that can affect supply, which can add to realism ...trying get a convoy of trucks up a mountain road is diffucult so...
screenie of the eastside of the toe
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 16:24
When placing the escarpments, we need to keep this (the definition of 'looking down') in mind. I don't know about you guys, but I could never remember which side was lookign up and which was looking down.
Out of the hexside the escarpment is placed in, that's looking down
Compare it to the penalty for attacking out of a river hex
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 16:30
BTW, it sure will be handy to have the scrolling in/out feature in the editor which Ralph was talking about... man this is intensive labour ! :nuts: :laugh:
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 17:43
The toe is done, I'm up to the line Salerno-Potenza
Gonna do the heel later on
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 18:49
:mad: :blab: :curse: :argh:
I was modding, from Salerno past Napoli to the Volturno when suddenly... zapp!!!
0.5 second power failure:mad: there's thunder in the distance
and my last save was 45 minutes ago:hissyfit: :kotz:
There's no doubt Italian rivers made life difficult. I think we (Silvain) need to take detailed looks at the peninsula (as he is doing) and then make judgement calls on weather to
a) make a section of river a super river (moreso near the coast)
b) add a marsh hex to make it difficult, but not impossible
c) add small/light escarpments to make it difficult, but not impossible (morso in mountain areas).
Otherwise, we could make all (most) rivers super rivers. Opinions (with reasons)?
Url from 'General Walker' re: 36xx inf crossing of the Rapido:
http://www.kwanah.com/36division/ps/ps900204.htm
His quote: "Not only could German weapons hold up an advance at the Rapido; the river itself was an obstacle. Unfordable, eight to 12 feet deep, 40 to 50 feet wide, with steep banks, a swift current, ice-cold water and no bridges, the Rapido was destined to be the scene of debacle."
Looks like a Italian 'super-river' to me. A good look at some topo maps would be useful. IIRC, many of these rivers were a problem not because they were deep and wide, but because they had such high 'flow-rates' due to elevation changes, eh? An Italian winter must really suck!
This would be only one example, eh?
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 19:41
Redid the Salerno Volturno area after the power cut and lost data..
It looked better the first time :cry:
Poor Silvain.
You're doing a great job! Keep up the good work.
I finally had the time to scan some maps which could help you a bit.
Here they are, just click them:
Fiume Sangro:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9297/8tharmyatthesangronr0.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8tharmyatthesangronr0.jpg)
Cassino1:
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7640/cassino1cl8.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cassino1cl8.jpg)
Cassino2:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9338/cassino2yt5.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cassino2yt5.jpg)
central south:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/252/centralsouthew4.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centralsouthew4.jpg)
Fiume Garigliano:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2254/gariglianoeq6.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gariglianoeq6.jpg)
Ortona:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/163/ortonamg1.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ortonamg1.jpg)
Salerno:
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/8896/salernock0.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=salernock0.jpg)
Fiume Volturno:
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1773/tothevolturno0002km3.th.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tothevolturno0002km3.jpg)
Silvanski
15 Jul 07, 23:27
Thanks Stefan comparing various maps is helpfull, sometimes a compromis has to be chosen
Silvanski
16 Jul 07, 00:49
This is roughly the topographic area modded in the past two days... this is gonna take a while guys
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i910024_done.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com)
This is roughly the topographic area modded in the past two days... this is gonna take a while guys
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i910024_done.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com)
A) I feel your pain about the power outage. That is always a bummer when you loose work.
B) You have time. Don't burn yourself out. You're doing a good job.
piero1971
16 Jul 07, 14:47
Redid the Salerno Volturno area after the power cut and lost data..
It looked better the first time :cry:
it's Avellino, not Avallino, the town east of Naples... do you want me to do a check on town names?
it's Avellino, not Avallino, the town east of Naples... do you want me to do a check on town names?
That'd be great, and much appreciated, Piero.
Poor Silvain.
You're doing a great job! Keep up the good work.
I finally had the time to scan some maps which could help you a bit.
Here they are, just click them:
Fiume Sangro:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9297/8tharmyatthesangronr0.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8tharmyatthesangronr0.jpg)
Cassino1:
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7640/cassino1cl8.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cassino1cl8.jpg)
Cassino2:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9338/cassino2yt5.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cassino2yt5.jpg)
central south:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/252/centralsouthew4.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=centralsouthew4.jpg)
Fiume Garigliano:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2254/gariglianoeq6.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gariglianoeq6.jpg)
Ortona:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/163/ortonamg1.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ortonamg1.jpg)
Salerno:
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/8896/salernock0.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=salernock0.jpg)
Fiume Volturno:
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1773/tothevolturno0002km3.th.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tothevolturno0002km3.jpg)
Great looking maps, Stefan! :salute:
Silvanski
16 Jul 07, 15:47
it's Avellino, not Avallino, the town east of Naples... do you want me to do a check on town names?
Thanks, I'll correct place names in the final check-up... I plan to use Italian names if no one objects... Firenze instead of Florence, Napoli instead of Naples etc...
If in doubt I'll let you know :-)
Silvanski
16 Jul 07, 15:50
A) I feel your pain about the power outage. That is always a bummer when you loose work.
B) You have time. Don't burn yourself out. You're doing a good job.
a)... sucks indeed, that'll teach me to hit the "save" button more often :clown:
b) thanks, going steady ... I know it'll take a while to check out the OOB's
piero1971
17 Jul 07, 08:38
Thanks, I'll correct place names in the final check-up... I plan to use Italian names if no one objects... Firenze instead of Florence, Napoli instead of Naples etc...
If in doubt I'll let you know :-)
when the map is finished, send it to me... sometimes it's spelling mistakes that can happen. an a for an o, etc.
Silvanski
17 Jul 07, 08:55
when the map is finished, send it to me... sometimes it's spelling mistakes that can happen. an a for an o, etc.
Thanks Piero, I'll do that. Yes with so many things to look into, a spelling error can easily be overlooked
Silvanski
20 Jul 07, 07:59
I haven't had much time to work on the map but did a few bits tonight...
North of Taranto towards Bari etc is quite messy... the mountains there seem to be overkill and it needs more road/rail/towns
I haven't had much time to work on the map but did a few bits tonight...
North of Taranto towards Bari etc is quite messy... the mountains there seem to be overkill and it needs more road/rail/towns
Good man. :D
Im back guys. Silv, what a great job you are doing.
hoping to start on Axis Ground OOB on the morrow. Its 3:00 am here so it maybe a while. Good to see that this one is still alive and well. Bought a book on Anzio in UK which im sure is going to help as well
Bought a book on Anzio in UK which im sure is going to help as well
Good morning and welcome back, Jonathan. Which book? :D
Good morning and welcome back, Jonathan. Which book? :D
Bought the Osprey Campagins book on Anzio, just gone over it breifly and it looks detailed. Also got an OOB book on the DAK from the same series and boy is it detailed. I searched low and high for one on the Italian Campaign but no luck there. Got a 3 for 2 deal on Osprey books so i bought 9! Great update for my library :laugh:
Bought the Osprey Campagins book on Anzio, just gone over it breifly and it looks detailed. Also got an OOB book on the DAK from the same series and boy is it detailed. I searched low and high for one on the Italian Campaign but no luck there. Got a 3 for 2 deal on Osprey books so i bought 9! Great update for my library :laugh:
The infamous Polynike library ;) :thumup:
I know that book, used it for my scenario (amongst various others, all from inter-library loan). It's good, but iirc there have been some minor errors in the OOB. I strongly suggest Peter Verney's "Anzio 1944: An Unexpected Fury" (very detailed account of the british side of things) and Carlo D'Este's great book "Fatal Decision: Anzio and the Battle for Rome" if you want to get deeper into that campaign.
@Wyatt
you wanted options, heres a thought about one.
2nd FJ Division was in Italy forming in September 43. It disarmed the Rome garrison, was involved in Mussolini's resuce and elements of two of its regiments were involved in operations in Elba and Leros. In Novemeber 1943 it was transferred to Zhitmoir in Russia.
Could the Axis player have the option of retainning the Division or parts of it?
Bear in mind that the Division lost one of its regiments enroute to Russia, arriving there with two instead of its regulatory three, in particular FJR 6 was disbanded
GENERAL APPEAL TO ALL
any ideas of where to chase TO&E's of ground units. The panzer units are sorted, its the infantry and other units i need more detail on
thanks
@Wyatt
you wanted options, heres a thought about one.
2nd FJ Division was in Italy forming in September 43. It disarmed the Rome garrison, was involved in Mussolini's resuce and elements of two of its regiments were involved in operations in Elba and Leros. In Novemeber 1943 it was transferred to Zhitmoir in Russia.
Could the Axis player have the option of retainning the Division or parts of it?
Bear in mind that the Division lost one of its regiments enroute to Russia, arriving there with two instead of its regulatory three, in particular FJR 6 was disbanded
Certainly worth considering.
GENERAL APPEAL TO ALL
any ideas of where to chase TO&E's of ground units. The panzer units are sorted, its the infantry and other units i need more detail on
thanks
I haven't the foggiest, that's why I have you guys, and not myself, doing it. :D
GENERAL APPEAL TO ALL
any ideas of where to chase TO&E's of ground units. The panzer units are sorted, its the infantry and other units i need more detail on
thanks
here are some links most of you may know, but it won't hurt to post them here:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/
http://www.chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm
http://www.tdg.nu/indextoewwii.html
http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx?tabindex=5&tabid=612&item=2&sec=2
http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.html
http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Default.aspx?tabid=112&art_id=244
It's got nothing to do with TOEs , but i attached a reinforcement schedule for the units that entered the italian theater from OB West (France), OB Südost (Balkans) and from the Ersatzheer in Germany (Replacement Army) in cases Richard and Marder I (reaction to Shingle). Is that of use for you, Jonathan?
Many thanks Stefan
I was aware of the reinforcements arriving in Italy but the detail you provide is most useful.
Thing with the TO&E is that being a historian and a perfectionist i would like our OOB to be as accurate as possible. A nigh on impossible thing i know, but the attempt must be made.
Thanks for the links, was aware of most them and the one from World War two day by day is excellent.
@Wyatt, if we cannot ascertain TO&E how do you suggest we go about things in the interest of fairness, e.g. we cannot throw in full strength units as most German formations at this stage did not fill out their TO&E's
Stefan, mail me you OOB as well as you progress if you dont mind please
Many thanks Stefan
I was aware of the reinforcements arriving in Italy but the detail you provide is most useful.
The original document has been posted by a guy (whose name i can't remember) from the Dupuy institute at the Axis history forums. I have counter-checked it with the data i extracted from other sources (Carlo D'Este's book, War diary of 14.Armee and others).
Thing with the TO&E is that being a historian and a perfectionist i would like our OOB to be as accurate as possible. A nigh on impossible thing i know, but the attempt must be made.
Definitely.
Thanks for the links, was aware of most them and the one from World War two day by day is excellent.
That's what i thought.:)
Stefan, mail me you OOB as well as you progress if you dont mind please
Honestly i haven't progressed that far, nothing to send yet. One reason is, everytime i read something i stumble across something that could be of interest for the german side of things...this i.e.: (source is C.J.C Molony: Hist.of 2nd WW, The Mediterranean and middle east, Vol.V ; own comments coloured in blue):
Approx. unit strengths of XIV.Panzer Korps on Aug, 31st 1943:
16.Panzer Div: 15000
15.PzGren Div: 12300
HG Panzer Div: 15700
On Sept.,8th 16.Panzer Div's tank strength was (fit for battle):
PzKpfw III (lang): 7
PzKpfw 38: 12
PzKpfw IV (lang): 87
16.Panzer and HG Panzer were placed at "maximum alert" in the afternoon of the 8th.
16.Pz Div was deployed in four battlegroups with, very roughly, six miles between the groups and the groups placed from three to six miles back from the coast. From right to left (looking seaward) there were:
"Dörnemann" Between Slaerno and Baronissi
"Stempel" Pontecagnano-Montecorvino-Battipaglia
"von Holtey" (Reserve) Persano
"von Doering" Albanello-Rutino, 4 miles SE of Ogliastro
Outline composition of troops:
Major Dörnemann (Commander of 16.Pz Aufkl)
16.PzAufkl
one StuG Kompanie of III/PzRegt 2
a detachment of SPArtillery (I/16.PzArt?)
one Engineer company
Oberst Stempel (Commander of 64.PzGren Regt)
64.PzGren Regt (consisting of 2 Bns; 1st Bn prob.armoured inf)
III/PzRegt 2 (- one StuG company)
one Artillery battery
one Engineer company
Oberst von Holtey (commander of PzRegt 2)
II/PzRegt 2 (- two companies)
one artillery battery
one engineer platoon
(PzRegt 2 had an establisment of 3 Bns, the third being equipped with StuGs, I/PzRegt 2 was in Germany refitting with Panther tanks, but didn't reach Italy- the Div was sent to Russia in late 43 (i think the 87 Pz IVs mentioned above were from I. and II. Abteilungen, I.Abt was send to Germany in May, don't know why Molony, or his source, still lists 87 Pz IVs here while at the same time he states that one Abteilung was in Germany reequipping with Panthers. ) read more about PzRegt 2 here: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/16PD.htm
Oberst von Doering (commander of 79.PzGren Regt)
79.PzGren Regt (consist.of two Bns)
two companies of II/PzRegt 2
one artillery battery
engineer and recce detachments
The heavy weapons of the division were of this order:
16.PzArt.Regt: 18 SP and 20 towed light field howitzers, 4 10cm Guns
16.Flak Abt.: 8 88mm Guns, 4 20m Guns
III/PzRegt 2: 37 StuG, 24 75mm AT Guns
Hope this helps. Wyatt, you're the man who places the units on the map..do a copy and paste please.:)
EDIT: Wait, here's also some info: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34854
@Wyatt, if we cannot ascertain TO&E how do you suggest we go about things in the interest of fairness, e.g. we cannot throw in full strength units as most German formations at this stage did not fill out their TO&E's
Good question. We'll just have to decide a percentage of their equipment ot have on hand (70-80-90%) and then assign that. We can also look at what Custer had assigned. (I don't like to use another scenario as a source, but whatddaya gonna do?)
Honestly i haven't progressed that far, nothing to send yet. One reason is, everytime i read something i stumble across something that could be of interest for the german side of things...this i.e.: (source is C.J.C Molony: Hist.of 2nd WW, The Mediterranean and middle east, Vol.V ; own comments coloured in blue):
Approx. unit strengths of XIV.Panzer Korps on Aug, 31st 1943:
16.Panzer Div: 15000
15.PzGren Div: 12300
HG Panzer Div: 15700
On Sept.,8th 16.Panzer Div's tank strength was (fit for battle):
PzKpfw III (lang): 7
PzKpfw 38: 12
PzKpfw IV (lang): 87
16.Panzer and HG Panzer were placed at "maximum alert" in the afternoon of the 8th.
16.Pz Div was deployed in four battlegroups with, very roughly, six miles between the groups and the groups placed from three to six miles back from the coast. From right to left (looking seaward) there were:
"Dörnemann" Between Slaerno and Baronissi
"Stempel" Pontecagnano-Montecorvino-Battipaglia
"von Holtey" (Reserve) Persano
"von Doering" Albanello-Rutino, 4 miles SE of Ogliastro
Outline composition of troops:
Major Dörnemann (Commander of 16.Pz Aufkl)
16.PzAufkl
one StuG Kompanie of III/PzRegt 2
a detachment of SPArtillery (I/16.PzArt?)
one Engineer company
Oberst Stempel (Commander of 64.PzGren Regt)
64.PzGren Regt (consisting of 2 Bns; 1st Bn prob.armoured inf)
III/PzRegt 2 (- one StuG company)
one Artillery battery
one Engineer company
Oberst von Holtey (commander of PzRegt 2)
II/PzRegt 2 (- two companies)
one artillery battery
one engineer platoon
(PzRegt 2 had an establisment of 3 Bns, the third being equipped with StuGs, I/PzRegt 2 was in Germany refitting with Panther tanks, but didn't reach Italy- the Div was sent to Russia in late 43 (i think the 87 Pz IVs mentioned above were from I. and II. Abteilungen, I.Abt was send to Germany in May, don't know why Molony, or his source, still lists 87 Pz IVs here while at the same time he states that one Abteilung was in Germany reequipping with Panthers. ) read more about PzRegt 2 here: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/16PD.htm
Oberst von Doering (commander of 79.PzGren Regt)
79.PzGren Regt (consist.of two Bns)
two companies of II/PzRegt 2
one artillery battery
engineer and recce detachments
The heavy weapons of the division were of this order:
16.PzArt.Regt: 18 SP and 20 towed light field howitzers, 4 10cm Guns
16.Flak Abt.: 8 88mm Guns, 4 20m Guns
III/PzRegt 2: 37 StuG, 24 75mm AT Guns
EDIT: Wait, here's also some info: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=34854
Good info, Stefan.
Hope this helps. Wyatt, you're the man who places the units on the map..do a copy and paste please.:)
It may just be because its early, but I don't quite understand what you mean here...:laugh:
Ill be using Jentz as my main source for the Panzertruppen. Will email the 1st FJ Divison as soon as i have it to Stefan and Wyatt, if it meets their approval i will carry on in the same manner
Ill be using Jentz as my main source for the Panzertruppen. Will email the 1st FJ Divison as soon as i have it to Stefan and Wyatt, if it meets their approval i will carry on in the same manner
Awesome.00
@ Wyatt (if hes still around!!!)
The 1st SS was only in theatre for a month, in the North on anti-partisan duties. Shall i include it in the OOB. It was still a Panzer Grenadier Division at the time and had left all its heavy equipmet in Russia. Its presence in Italy is because of Hitler's insistence of having a "politically reliable" unit in Italy after Italy's Armstice with the Allies. I have no idea if we are anywhere near the unit limit with Custers OOB, he hasnt got the LSSAH in his OOB, and im not sure what time scale turns we are using (i prefer full day turns ala S to BP), but id rather be as historically correct as possible. Silv is doing a great job, so its only fair for the rest of us to rise to his standard.
So what say you Canuck ? :P
@ Wyatt (if hes still around!!!)
Always...Well, almost always. :laugh:
The 1st SS was only in theatre for a month, in the North on anti-partisan duties. Shall i include it in the OOB. It was still a Panzer Grenadier Division at the time and had left all its heavy equipmet in Russia. Its presence in Italy is because of Hitler's insistence of having a "politically reliable" unit in Italy after Italy's Armstice with the Allies.
I'd say leave it in there, we could have an event that if the Allies land really far north the 1st SS will stick around, at least for a while. Where did the 1st SS go when it left Italy, historically?
I have no idea if we are anywhere near the unit limit with Custers OOB
I don't think he is anywhere nea the limit.
im not sure what time scale turns we are using (i prefer full day turns ala S to BP)
I was thinking Half-Week turns (not my favourite time-scale, to be honest), for a few reasons. Most obviously, and not least of which being on full day turns the scenario would be 600+ turns long.
Another is that I think the half-week turns will slow the Allies down a bit:
They'll have to do a lot to be able to advance as far in one half week turn as they could in 3.5 full day turns.
There may be others, but I can't think of them at the moment.
Silv is doing a great job, so its only fair for the rest of us to rise to his standard.
He is, and we should. And you're doing a fine job, yourself, Jono.
So what say you Canuck ? :P
;)
I'd say leave it in there, we could have an event that if the Allies land really far north the 1st SS will stick around, at least for a while. Where did the 1st SS go when it left Italy, historically?
Zhitomir, Russia. Got itself surrounded at Kamenents-Podolsk
Zhitomir, Russia. Got itself surrounded at Kamenents-Podolsk
Ahh...what a shame.
Still managed to fight itself out and fight in Normandy, Ardennes and Hungary
Still managed to fight itself out and fight in Normandy, Ardennes and Hungary
Ahh...it wasn't just rebuilt?
It was a very weak unit after its breakout but it wasnt destroyed.
At that stage of the war a lot of Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine personnel were drafted enmasse into the Waffen SS. The LSSAH was still able to whip these men into a cohesive fighting force. Strong cadres, however, still remaind despite many of its good leaders being sent to the 12th SS.
It was a very weak unit after its breakout but it wasnt destroyed.
At that stage of the war a lot of Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine personnel were drafted enmasse into the Waffen SS. The LSSAH was still able to whip these men into a cohesive fighting force. Strong cadres, however, still remaind despite many of its good leaders being sent to the 12th SS.
Well, somebody sure knows their stuff. :D
Silvanski
23 Jul 07, 13:57
Well, somebody sure knows their stuff. :D
I'm sure you know this site Wyatt :smoke:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1982
I'm sure you know this site Wyatt :smoke:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1982
:laugh: Yes I do, but, like a dummy, it never crossed my mind that he might simply have gotten it from there...:laugh:
Silvanski
23 Jul 07, 14:29
:laugh: Yes I do, but, like a dummy, it never crossed my mind that he might simply have gotten it from there...:laugh:
Or Jonathan may have a photographic memory
@Wyatt
i didnt get it from there, i do know something about this stuff lol, but by no means an expert
as regards 12th SS am still reading the second volume of Hubert Meyers history of his that division. LSSAH lost men of the calibre of fritz witt, 'panzer' meyer, max wunsche, monhke etc etc as cadre to the HJ along with a lot of its veteran NCO's. The fact that many of the LSSAH replacements were of low quality makes the divisions fighting record in 44-45 even more impressive.
@Wyatt
i didnt get it from there, i do know something about this stuff lol, but by no means an expert
I never doubted you for a minute. :D
as regards 12th SS am still reading the second volume of Hubert Meyers history of his that division. LSSAH lost men of the calibre of fritz witt, 'panzer' meyer, max wunsche, monhke etc etc as cadre to the HJ along with a lot of its veteran NCO's. The fact that many of the LSSAH replacements were of low quality makes the divisions fighting record in 44-45 even more impressive.
Yeah, the Waffen SS somehow managed to be, mostly, very impressive, even with often poor quality troops.
By the way...my memory may be bad, but, last time I check, all three of you owed me turns...:clown:
Silvanski
23 Jul 07, 15:04
By the way...my memory may be bad, but, last time I check, all three of you owed me turns...:clown:
You'll get mine later tonight :paperbag:
You'll get mine later tonight :paperbag:
No rush, I'm just laughing at the facxt that it isn't me this time. :laugh:
Ill try to get yours back to you before i leave again on sunday
@stefan what about GiO?
By the way...my memory may be bad, but, last time I check, all three of you owed me turns...:clown:
Good that you put a :clown: behind it.... will come this week, be patient.
@stefan what about GiO?
I sent it to you some days ago. Check the flood(?) of your mails..if it isn't there i will sent it again. Advance units have entered the suburbs of Minsk and i am on the road to Daugapils. :headbang:
What about Luftflotte 2 ? :paperbag:
@stefan
not got anything, email is acting funny of late
Luftflotte 2? in terms of what the italian campaign or GiO?
@stefan
not got anything, email is acting funny of late
Alright. Just re-sent.
Luftflotte 2? in terms of what the italian campaign or GiO?
In terms of Anzio.. 22.1.1944
its units were already in the theatre or flying from bases in the south of france. these are already in the OOB i provided. a lot of thes Luftflotte two units were withdrawn after the breakthrough the Gustav Line.
its units were already in the theatre or flying from bases in the south of france. these are already in the OOB i provided. a lot of thes Luftflotte two units were withdrawn after the breakthrough the Gustav Line.
Why? If we know the 'Why' we may have options.
its units were already in the theatre or flying from bases in the south of france. these are already in the OOB i provided. a lot of thes Luftflotte two units were withdrawn after the breakthrough the Gustav Line.
But i would need the state of operational/authorized planes, type etc down to the squadron(?) level.
But i would need the state of operational/authorized planes, type etc down to the squadron(?) level.
the numbers in the OOB i sent has those at the units entry to Italy or at worst the first day of the month it was deployed there
The difficulty is that a lot of the gruppen and staffellen were already in the theatre by the time the Anzio landings occur. The strength on the units in the OOB was based on what was agreed, ie the strength of the unit on entry to Italy. The strength of these units when the Anzio landings occur in our scenario will depend on the actions that preceded them, it may be the case that the Anzio landings may not be needed, depending on game circumstances at the time. What i was aiming for was an accurate start to the scenario, an accurate withdrawl of units, an accurate entry of reinforcements and their historical strengths.
stefan, www.ww2.dk/ shows you individual unit strengths of most units at the start and end of the month
on an aside i cant find anything on 19th and 20th Luftwaffe Sturm Divisions. Can you help out there Stefan?
thanks
Why? If we know the 'Why' we may have options.
Deducing from where these units were sent it was either for Reich defence or the Eastern Front, areasthat would have had priority to the Italian theatre
PS any of you guys on Facebook?
the numbers in the OOB i sent has those at the units entry to Italy or at worst the first day of the month it was deployed there
The difficulty is that a lot of the gruppen and staffellen were already in the theatre by the time the Anzio landings occur. The strength on the units in the OOB was based on what was agreed, ie the strength of the unit on entry to Italy. The strength of these units when the Anzio landings occur in our scenario will depend on the actions that preceded them, it may be the case that the Anzio landings may not be needed, depending on game circumstances at the time. What i was aiming for was an accurate start to the scenario, an accurate withdrawl of units, an accurate entry of reinforcements and their historical strengths.
stefan, www.ww2.dk/ shows you individual unit strengths of most units at the start and end of the month
It's not for this project - it's for an own Anzio scenario, but thank you for this link, had almost forgotten about it.
on an aside i cant find anything on 19th and 20th Luftwaffe Sturm Divisions. Can you help out there Stefan?
thanks
According to wikipedia (what a source..;) ) other (later) names for 19. and 20. LW Feld Divisions. So i think, nothing to worry about.
From a thread at Feldgrau (http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26270&sid=6828caf5246cda9752f1aeeabdfab87f)
- In March 1943, the 20th Luftwaffe Field Division moved to Aalborg. It was taken over by the Army on 1 November 1943 as 20. Feld-Division (L). On June 1, 1944 it was renamed the 20th Luftwaffe "Sturm" Division. In July 1944 it was joined by the remnants of the disbanded 19th Luftwaffe "Sturm" Division. On 28 November 1944 the division was ordered disbanded and its infantry sent to the 26th Panzer Division.
Deducing from where these units were sent it was either for Reich defence or the Eastern Front, areasthat would have had priority to the Italian theatre
Yep, danke.
PS any of you guys on Facebook?
Nope, everyone at my offeice is always bugging me to get on it, but it just seems like too much work and effort. :laugh:
Just want to say you guys are doing a great job. :D
What Wyatt said x 2!
Just amazed by what's already happened in such a short time! :hail:
Really nice to see, eh?
Jonathan, this has just popped up in my e-mail inbox from the TOandEs@yahoogroups.com digest:
4a.
26th Panzer Division: Salerno-Volturno '43
Posted by: "aukenlak" kperiolat@earthlink.net aukenlak
Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:53 pm (PST)
I am trying to track down what tanks would be found in the 26th Panzer
Regiment during the Salerno battles, and what sort of AT guns 57th
PanzerJager Abt. would have been equipped with. Any good suggestions
on references for the battles would be appreciated too.
Thanks in advance,
Kurt
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Messages in this topic (5)
4b.
Re: 26th Panzer Division: Salerno-Volturno '43
Posted by: "Alan" am007g5064@blueyonder.co.uk alanmccou
Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:09 pm (PST)
Kurt, Nafziger gives 2/26 16 x Pz IIIN, 17 x Pz IV(short), 36 x Pz IV
(long), 14 x Flammpanzer and 9 x Befehlspanzer. The division didn't
have an anti-tank battalion at the time and Lexikon der Wehrmacht
doesn't list a 57th at all so I can't help you there. Alan
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4c.
Re: 26th Panzer Division: Salerno-Volturno '43
Posted by: "aukenlak" kperiolat@earthlink.net aukenlak
Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:16 pm (PST)
Ooops, that should be 51st...Feldgrau has it as Panzerjüger-Abteilun g
51, but I assumed that was a typo.
Thanks for the info!!
Kurt
> Kurt, Nafziger gives 2/26 16 x Pz IIIN, 17 x Pz IV(short), 36 x Pz IV
> (long), 14 x Flammpanzer and 9 x Befehlspanzer. The division didn't
> have an anti-tank battalion at the time and Lexikon der Wehrmacht
> doesn't list a 57th at all so I can't help you there. Alan
>
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4d.
Re: 26th Panzer Division: Salerno-Volturno '43
Posted by: "Alan" am007g5064@blueyonder.co.uk alanmccou
Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:36 pm (PST)
--- In TOandEs@yahoogroups .com, "aukenlak" <kperiolat@. ..> wrote:
>
> Ooops, that should be 51st...Feldgrau has it as Panzerjüger-Abteilun g
> 51, but I assumed that was a typo.
>
> Thanks for the info!!
>
> Kurt
>
Kurt, Lexikon der Wehrmacht says that 51 wasn't formed until October
44. Nafziger in another section of his book says that 525 PzJgr Abt was
tactically subordinate to 26 PD in September 43, that was a NASHORN
unit. Alan
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4e.
Re: 26th Panzer Division: Salerno-Volturno '43
Posted by: "aukenlak" kperiolat@earthlink.net aukenlak
Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:15 pm (PST)
Thanks again, Alan!
> Kurt, Lexikon der Wehrmacht says that 51 wasn't formed until October
> 44. Nafziger in another section of his book says that 525 PzJgr Abt was
> tactically subordinate to 26 PD in September 43, that was a NASHORN
> unit. Alan
>
Jonathan, this has just popped up in my e-mail inbox from the
This reminds me. Do you guys think it would be worth while to BioEd in all the different variations of German tanks? Personally, I think the chrome would be nice, the different stats would be nice, but it may wreak havoc with the replacements.
For example: Say all the of the 26th Pz is equiped with PzIVF, the Xth Pz in Northern Italy is equiped with IVF2. the replacements for both could easily go to either division, however, since the two types have been seperated the PzIVF2s would continue to pile up in the replacements pool, while the 26th Pz withers away because of a lack of PzIVF replacements...
This reminds me. Do you guys think it would be worth while to BioEd in all the different variations of German tanks? Personally, I think the chrome would be nice, the different stats would be nice, but it may wreak havoc with the replacements.
For example: Say all the of the 26th Pz is equiped with PzIVF, the Xth Pz in Northern Italy is equiped with IVF2. the replacements for both could easily go to either division, however, since the two types have been seperated the PzIVF2s would continue to pile up in the replacements pool, while the 26th Pz withers away because of a lack of PzIVF replacements...
I wouldn't. Chrome is nice, but what you suggest is, as you say, unsuitable for longer scenarios. However we may need (or want) to add some equipment that isn't in the common database. 'Borgward IV remote controlled demolition carrier' i.e., it was used by 3/508.sPzAbt (Tiger) at Anzio. I have a TO&E for that unit, don't worry.
EDIT: Wyatt, what's up with your avatar? Lord of the Flies? ;)
I wouldn't. Chrome is nice, but what you suggest is, as you say, unsuitable for longer scenarios. However we may need (or want) to add some equipment that isn't in the common database. 'Borgward IV remote controlled demolition carrier' i.e., it was used by 3/508.sPzAbt (Tiger) at Anzio. I have a TO&E for that unit, don't worry.
Aye, yes. Keep in mind the BioEditter will be being used for this scenario, so make a list of any quirks we want to include/not include in the scenario.
EDIT: Wyatt, what's up with your avatar? Lord of the Flies? ;)
Lord of the Flies..yikes, I was not a fan of that book. How did you get that from my Avatar? :D
Explanation:
I was bored last night, and happened to be looking at the Avatars available. I thought a couple of them looked pretty cool, but I always like to have a real picture of myself on here. So I endevoured to just make my picture look 'cool'. :cool:
I Darkened the goatee and shades, made my eyes glowing blue, added the tatty on the left side of my face, and dropped a map of Europe in behind me (it started with bright blue oceans, but I wanted it darker, so I changed it to the dark red)-I then switched out the map of Europe for the red with black stripe, you couldnt' see the map of Europe very well, anyways. I thought of having troops marching behind me, but couldn't find a pic that fit the 'feel' of the avatar.
If you look through the first page of avatars avail when you go to edit your avatar, you'll undoubtedly find the avatars that inspired me.
Aye, yes. Keep in mind the BioEditter will be being used for this scenario, so make a list of any quirks we want to include/not include in the scenario.
Will do. Right'o. I think it won't be much from the british and american side - yet only the M15 MGMC used by some AA Bn of the US Army.
Lord of the Flies..yikes, I was not a fan of that book. How did you get that from my Avatar? :D
Had to read it at school in english. I also remember a film that we watched and the face painting and pearls (or whatever) in your hair reminded me of one of the figures.
Had to read it at school in english. I also remember a film that we watched and the face painting and pearls (or whatever) in your hair reminded me of one of the figures.
Ah, so you saw the film...I skipped out that day...:devious: :laugh:
Therefore, I didn't know that it rsembled a Lord of the Flies character.
Id go for all versions of german panzers available. Lots of the panzer units were equipped with Pz III(l) and Pz III(n), matter of fact there was a higher number of n's (equipped with short 75mm gun ala PzIV(d)).
Wyatt you already mention the large varirty of the Pz IV, though at this stge of the war the (H) variant was the most common for frontline units. Lets take advantage of the Bio editor and lets push the boat out. If you need any technical help drop me a line i have a resource that will help you greatly if not http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm should do the trick
Setfan how can you get me onto that TO&E@yahoo.com thingy?
Setfan how can you get me onto that TO&E@yahoo.com thingy?
Go to http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/ ,scroll down, click join this group, enter your data and you should get a reply e-mail soon.
Check.
Figured it out on my own, already a member. ive asked for info on the RSI, see if we get anything back
Check.
Figured it out on my own, already a member. ive asked for info on the RSI, see if we get anything back
Didn't you look at Feldgrau? - they have some good info (not on TO&E, but a complete OOB)
Something different now, from the allied side of things. How should we model (if at all) transitions of units between formations? Or shall we keep the initial OOB?
It's not the Corps' troops that i mean like TD Bns etc.
I'll give you an example:
56th (London) Infantry Division:
The 167 Bde consisted at the time it landed at Salerno of:
8 Roy.Fusiliers
9 Roy.Fusiliers
7 Ox&Bucks (Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Inf)
Then on 23.9.44 the Bde took over command of
1 London Irish Rifles
1 London Scottish (which it received from the Division's 168 Bde)
giving away 7 Ox&Bucks and 8 Roy.Fusiliers to ??, keeping 9 Roy.Fusiliers
Just the peak of the Iceberg so to speak..