World map

[Mantis]

Still searching for a world map. I'd like to have the largest possible size map that includes the entire earth. License can be taken with oceans, poles, etc.

I've always wanted to take a stab at a complete campaign WWII scenario, but am realistic enough to know that I'll never even begin if I can't at least get the outline of a useable map.

Anyone able to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

[General Staff]

Originally posted by Mantis
Still searching for a world map. I'd like to have the largest possible size map that includes the entire earth. License can be taken with oceans, poles, etc.

Forgive the plug for the Scenario Library project again- hopefully (and literally) 'graphically' illustrating how it can be of benefit to BOTH players AND Designers- but there is one I've found in its hallowed halls out there.

WorldWar 2.0- author: Skaar, E-Mail: Vikingson69@hotmail.com, Scale 50 Kms/hex.

If you can't find it, let me know and I can send you a copy. Or you might want to contact the author to get his permission- my suggested preferred route. Or both- take a look THEN contact the author. Hope this helps.

[Mantis]

Originally posted by General Staff


Forgive the plug for the Scenario Library project again- hopefully (and literally) 'graphically' illustrating how it can be of benefit to BOTH players AND Designers- but there is one I've found in its hallowed halls out there.

I'm already a staunch supporter!

WorldWar 2.0- author: Skaar, E-Mail: Vikingson69@hotmail.com, Scale 50 Kms/hex.

If you can't find it, let me know and I can send you a copy. Or you might want to contact the author to get his permission- my suggested preferred route. Or both- take a look THEN contact the author. Hope this helps.

Thanks!

I already have that one (it's the only one I have, actually) but am looking for something with a larger land mass. I know, I'm being so fussy I might never find what I want... But I really require a more 'abstracted' ocean area, so more of the map can be dedicated to Euro/Africa/Asia, and the other continents.

Perhaps if someone knows of a current map that could potentially be expanded to encompass this?

[General Staff]

Originally posted by Mantis


I'm already a staunch supporter!



Thanks!

I already have that one (it's the only one I have, actually) but am looking for something with a larger land mass. I know, I'm being so fussy I might never find what I want... But I really require a more 'abstracted' ocean area, so more of the map can be dedicated to Euro/Africa/Asia, and the other continents.

Perhaps if someone knows of a current map that could potentially be expanded to encompass this?

Thank you.

Sorry this didn't help. I looked at the rest of the scenarios. This seems to be the only one. A couple of other suggestions:

1) There are a number of scenario maps that do ETO and PTO in WWII, though this might leave out the Americas and parts of central Asia and the Near East. Maybe take 2 and put them together? I can give some pointers on which might fit these criteria.

2) An even better suggestion, perhaps, is to read Bob Cross' excellent article on using the LatLong program at the TOAW Scenario Design Article Section. Then maybe start from scratch? (!). Or contact the author- with this level of expertise, if there is a map out there to meet your criteria I'm sure he'd be an excellent person to ask.

Hope this helps.

[Mantis]

Originally posted by General Staff


Thank you.

Sorry this didn't help. I looked at the rest of the scenarios. This seems to be the only one. A couple of other suggestions:

1) There are a number of scenario maps that do ETO and PTO in WWII, though this might leave out the Americas and parts of central Asia and the Near East. Maybe take 2 and put them together? I can give some pointers on which might fit these criteria.

An excellent suggestion. I'd be most interested in hearing whatever you come up with.

2) An even better suggestion, perhaps, is to read Bob Cross' excellent article on using the LatLong program at the TOAW Scenario Design Article Section. Then maybe start from scratch? (!). Or contact the author- with this level of expertise, if there is a map out there to meet your criteria I'm sure he'd be an excellent person to ask.

Hope this helps.

Actually, I have read this. It was great. But my problem is that I'm realistic enough to know that the amount of time needed to make a quality map before I could even begin to program my opus would doom the project before it began. With a great map in hand, I probably would (eventually) have a finished (if they ever are finished) scenario. But if I have to do the map myself, and knowing the constraints I already have on my time, it'll just never happen.

Which is a shame, because I have a feeling that I could make something truly unique.

[General Staff]

Originally posted by Mantis
An excellent suggestion. I'd be most interested in hearing whatever you come up with.

It might be easier if you tell me what you have in mind. Privately, if you wish.

[Mantis]

I want to get the largest possible landmass size, while abstracting the oceans to maintain the distance. I need the entire world (minus the poles; something akin to an Axis & Allies map) with perhaps only two sections of ocean abstracted.

A vast expanse in the Atlantic (roughly in the middle of the ocean), and the same in the Pacific. Perhaps an unplayable 'black line' zone that forces further east-west sea travel to enter a serpentine bottleneck 2 hexes wide that adds considerable movement cost to travel from the UK to the US, and from the US to Asia, for example.

Actually, I'm open to suggestions on how to pull this off. But the gist of it is, I need all the continents in there, but don't want things so small that France in only 32 hexes... I don't know how large the maps can get (without looking) but I'd like to keep nations sizes as close to the EA standard as possible. Since larger is out of the question, somewhat smaller is acceptable, but I'd like to mess around with ocean travel to somehow stop things from getting to the point where Norway is a diagonal string of 6 hexes...

My basic goal is to have a game similar to EA, but add in alot of the strategy and design options I've put into a boardgame I've worked on for years... The strategic flexibility in a global game of WWII is awesome, and I'd like to 'port' it to CoW.

[General Staff]

Originally posted by Mantis
I don't know how large the maps can get (without looking)...

I'm pretty sure it's 300x300, though someone may correct me. I think you're talking a custom creation here, though you might be able to use data from other maps and copy them hex-by-hex.

However you look at it, I don't think this is available 'off the shelf'- some work (actually a lot) is going to be required.

If you take the scenario first discussed with a whole world map at 50 kms/hex at 243x103, it might be possible to change scale to 25 kms/hex if you lose a lot of ocean and bearing in mind it's not using 300x300. But then you'd have to do homework to see what could fit where.

The problem is you can use only ONE map as a starting point. Then you have to add in the rest. There's nothing that will take a map of Europe, then add in a map of Africa etc... It has to be done manually. I think you're really looking for the best map at the scale you want (once you've figured this out) to start at the top left of the screen (North America say) in Opart300 with its 300x300 map. Increase the map size to 300x300, both right and down. Then you'll have to add in the rest manually- maybe do or find one map for each continent. And I'd be careful- if you make a mistake I don't think there's any facility to nudge the whole of Europe up or over a hex or two for example.

I'd suggest that if you don't get any designer response here, you try posting at TDG- maybe they can help you or point you in the right direction.

Sorry for not being more helpful, but with a project of this magnitude I don't think there's any easy way.

[General Staff]

Originally posted by Chuck
I think this is going to be a lot of work if you do it. The best thing to do would be to print out a map of the part of the world you want then start dividing it with a ruler into sections.

Figure out what your scale will be knowing that you have a max of 300 each way. The biggest problem will probably be fitting the map in horizontally. I don't think 25 km scale will work because Asia is huge. China itself is bigger than the United States.

One possible idea. First select a scale for the whole effort. Maybe start at 25 km/hex though realizing you might have to go to 50. Then use Bob Cross' LatLong program to do a very rough outline of each continent by filling in the outline of it in MS Excel.

That'll give you all the continents in 256 columns (an Excel Limitation- so you might need another worksheet for the other 44 columns). Print them. Then try and superimpose these on a 300x300 area outline that you've also printed. Alternatively you could try cutting and pasting in Excel from one worksheet to another. A little like a jigsaw puzzle. See how you can arrange them less oceans which will be represented by your connection 'corridors'.

If you bear in mind the theory of Continental Drift and an original single land mass ('Gondwanaland'?) plus just take a look at a world map, you could have South America close to West Africa, North America close to Europe and maybe Australia and New Zealand tucked off Africa in the Indian Ocean!

Just a thought but again, however you look at it, a lot of work.

[Chuck?]

Does anyone know how wide Eurasia is in kilometers? This would be a good start to figuring out how to handle the map.

[Mantis]

I think what I'm going to have to do is figure out how much ocean I need for normal space, how much is required for serpentine distance-stretchers kind of things, and then determine how many hexes this leaves me east to west. I can determine scale from there, and start carving up space to insert continents and land masses, perhpas abstracting that a bit as well, the way Europe Aflame does for Ethiopia and S. Africa.

Adding in the Japanese is going to be interesting... I could probably use about 5000 events, never mind 500. I have certain listings already, can anyone point me to some good online OOB and TO&E resources for the major players in WWII?

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Mantis
Adding in the Japanese is going to be interesting... I could probably use about 5000 events, never mind 500. I have certain listings already, can anyone point me to some good online OOB and TO&E resources for the major players in WWII?

I was going to do an entire WWII project with Richard Bradley. We got as far as Richard's roughed out map and my basic OOB (for war-start only, not for the whole scenario).

The point you raise above regarding events basically rules out the possibility of making any meaningful wwii worldwide scenario in TOAW at present, and when I realised this I pulled out of the project and AFAIK Richard accepted that it would never go anyway.

If you want to take a look at my OOB for this (largely based on Niehorster) then let me know and I'll send it your way. Also various notes taken on the game- we had a system of theatre options in mind whereby each major nation each year could prioritise aircraft, naval or tank production. For the first and last a big block of equipment would appear in an off map area to be disbanded. Naval warfare was to be modelled abstractly with what we called the "Global Naval Variable" (in practice the EEV)... when it gets to extremes then one side gets sea transport, naval units and the other side may have reduced supply or supply points removed on islands.

At the time I gave each nation a different type of infantry squad but with the rise of Biohazard's equipment editor this rather clumbsy tool ceases to be necessary. Replacements were to be fairly limited but reinforced by lots of blocks of equipment materialising in off map areas to be disbanded (disbanding them with an event would have been extremely wasteful).

Map scale of course would have to be 50km/hex. Unit scale is mostly Corps in the West and mostly divisions in the East. More theatre options would be available to decide whether to research jets (a no answer means you get a big block of regular aircraft replacements) for each nation, and similar TOs for the Tiger and again for the Maus (the Germans got IIRC two brigades of the latter). I found a site with planned French AFV designs which I put in their OOB. We did get a lot of the way in designing this (though I never saw the map so I don't know how far ahead Richard got with it) but like I said unless someone cracks TOAW (Biohazard IIRC is working on this) to get more events then it can just never happen.

Final note- RE: the map, the area between the Urals and Irkutsk would have to be abstracted (the wiggly railroad mentioned elsewhere). India I'm not sure, I guess it would probably have to be mostly cut out to allow large parts of Iraq and Iran to fit on. Basically you're cutting out 50+ hexrows with this saving. There's lots of space South of Eurasia because Africa isn't hugely important apart from the Mediterranean coast and Ethiopia... this area would be used for the disbands etc, also if you could find events for a non-abstracted strategic bombing campaign that could go on down there. Otherwise North-South the map goes from Nordkapp in Norway down to Northern territory in Australia, not sure how far that is in kms (ignoring the East-West dimension of course) but should fit on the map. Of course I wasn't doing the map so I don't really know how the projection used affected all of this.

[Mantis]

(oops!)

[Mantis]

Thanks for your reply, Ben.

I'd certainly like to peruse any and all information you're able to send me from your project. Some of the ideas sound great, and taking a large chunk out of the centre of Russia would indeed save a large amount of space; that's good planning, I hadn't thought that far ahead as of yet. I'm interested in hearing more about how you were doing some of the funkier TOs; that bit about the naval warfare sounds intereting, as well as the production choices. I am hoping to be able to incorporate that in for the major players as well, but it's still just in the planning stage, so any tips etc would be appreciated!

Thanx again!

(You can send me any information you wish, with my thanks, to mantis29a@shaw.ca )

[Ben Turner]

I have E-mailed you the relavent information. I will get in touch with Richard to see what he did with the map.

[Ben Turner]

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but there is a whole wwii scenario in existence, available at www.toaw.co.uk.

It's not very good.

[a white rabbit]

Originally posted by Ben Turner
I have E-mailed you the relavent information. I will get in touch with Richard to see what he did with the map.

..s'in the machine somewhere..must tidy up more often..,

[Eagle Of Death]

Wow Mantis....I think you and I were separated at birth. I want EXACTLY what you are looking for as well.... :)

[Mantis]

You want to make the map? ;)

We've done alot of the research already, from vital resources available worldwide, to the military strength and economy of various neutral nations, etc. I think it will/would be great!

[Eagle Of Death]

Mantis, I'll give it a shot. I mean, I'll help in any way that I can. I finally got the game a few days ago. TOAW:COW that is. I had to order it from Take2.

However Mantis, I do not know how to make maps yet because I am so very new to this. I have done other mods before for games like NASCAR Racing 2002 but that is as far as I have done....which isn't a lot. :(

Either way, have any of you figured out how big countries will be as far as hexes go. I mean will france be 10 hexes only or can we actually make this world map to be pretty big? Let me know the details on what you have so far. As far as me being upto date on what military has what....that I have no idea:(

I guess I can work on some of the map but where are you getting the info for these maps from? Are there certain websites, books and what not?

[Mantis]

I haven't done any research into the map at all at this point. But people here and on various other websites are very helpful to would-be designers. If you're serious about this, I suggest that you play the game. Alot. Get the feel for it. Then start with designing a small map of a given area, to get the feel for that. When you feel comfortable with it all, we can discuss taking the next steps!

[Eagle Of Death]

Thats cool Mantis. I'll do that. If there are any other developements, let us know :)

[Eagle Of Death]

Mantis, one last thing, where do you get the info for the maps? I mean river placement, city placement...and so on? Can you use the ODD by placing a real map into that and then using it in the editor?

[Mantis]

I think that you'd be best served by starting a new thread in this forum, and make sure the title gives the idea that you'd like some input. There are many experienced designers here that can probably help you with this part of it far more than I can.

[LOK]

The problem as many people pointed out is that if you make a World Map then the scale of each hex must be 50 km forcing the players to battle over a few crucial hexes. If you use 20 or 25 km scale then you can make a good operational map (at the division level) but you must leave large parts of the world out. That creates several problems: air missions can be flown between operational theaters that are not close to each other in real life; air/naval transport between theaters is not realistic, etc.

I have been designing a large WWIII scenario that covers most of Europe-Middle East and the North Pacific (Japan-Korea). I split the map in two theaters, but that does not solve the problems of air missions and transport. Naval transport could be solved by appropriate map design.

So I wanted to get some feedback on another option I am considering:
How about two coupled scenarios: One that covers Europe/Middle East and one that covers most of the Pacific? They can even use different scales. Those areas should be sufficient for most WWII/WWIII scenarios. Then players play both scenarios and agree on house rules how events from scenario 1 affect scenario 2 (using Theater Options etc.).

Wondering what other players/designers think about this...

[Kraut]

Originally posted by LOK
How about two coupled scenarios: One that covers Europe/Middle East and one that covers most of the Pacific? They can even use different scales. Those areas should be sufficient for most WWII/WWIII scenarios. Then players play both scenarios and agree on house rules how events from scenario 1 affect scenario 2 (using Theater Options etc.).

Wondering what other players/designers think about this...

That would also allow a 2 vs. 2, one player taking control over the pacific theater, the other player battleing in europe :)
Than both players have to cooperate to beat the other team :)

[Dan Neely]

While it would be interesting, I cringe at the thought of how easily it could be messed up by a careless player. While supply/replacements +/- X TOs can be reversed with minimal time (I'm assuming that the TOs would be permanant so that a single +5 supply event could be used each time the message was passed from one scenario to the other) withdraw formation events would be permanent in thier effect.

[Eagle Of Death]

LOK, that sounds very cool. How far are you or are you just in the beginning stages?

[LOK]

Kraut made an excellent suggestion. I also see Dan's point and unfortunately I have to agree that if players are not careful and don't abide by the (complicated?) house rules two coupled scenarios could be a disaster and will not work. TOAW is not set up for this kind of thing....

If however, if some individuals manage to get the idea to work it can open up the possibility of having N coupled scenarios and introducing multi-player games to TOAW (sort of). For example, one can design a WWII campaign scenario where each area (or phase) of the war is represented by a different scenario. Victory conditions may be set per country (or per player) so that additional inter-player/scenario dynamics may be introduced. I think at that point we will need a referee...or perhaps another add-on utility to manage the Theater Options.

Eagle, I am currently playtesting (hotseat) the "last" version of my scenario and updating the briefing. Several people on Warfare HQ made excellent suggestions and found several bugs during earlier playetesting (many thanks to all of you). If you are interested in playtesting send me an e-mail (Haris_R@yahoo.com) and when it's ready we can give it a try.

Regards