Black Pigs and GD

[Mad Russian]

This is the discussion thread for Black Pigs in the Seeing the Elephant tournament.

It is for those that are finished with the scenario only!!!!

We will discuss ANYTHING you like about the scenario or tactics that you like in the scenario here.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

Mangus and I just finished our game. I won a Minor Allied victory. If the scenario had gone on for more turns I wouldn't have. He managed to keep all his PzIV's alive while killing all of my JSU's.

BUT I managed to get my infantry inside the wire!!! Once I was inside the wire and occupied the defensive perimeter I was hard to drive back out.

The biggest killers for the Soviets of course was the Katyusha barrage! There were 133 infantry casualties and 1 JSU killed by the Katyusha barrage.

Yes, that's right one of my own JSU's was killed by a rocket! I held the rockets until I got close enough to try to take advantage of the disruption they would cause to the German defenders. In so doing I got a little too close.

As the Soviets you HAVE TO GET INSIDE THE WIRE!!!!! Get down close and look at it!! If there are any gaps in the wire you go through there. If there are not you use fire and maneuver. One squad fires while another goes through the wire. One for one!!! Keep the Germans heads down as you assault the position.

BOTH SIDES!!! Run down the tree lined lanes in the trees with your infantry. The enemy can't see into the trees very well. Run about 100 meters then have them hide. This lets them rest before doing it all over again next turn. It also keeps incoming fire to a minimum.

Keep all leaders hidden with short arcs for local defense only!! Do not fight with your leaders!! If you do and they get killed your force just became very brittle! It will now disintegrate right before your eyes...

This battle seems to be very well balanced with wins on both sides for the Germans and Soviets.

Questions, Comments....

Good Hunting.

MR

[antonius]

I managed a minor victory playing the Russians.

I really thought I had lost this so was surprised to find that I had achieved a minor victory. The 3 flags were still being contested at the end. My first rocket attack took place at the beginning of the game and I held back the second until later on. I'm glad I did because it appartently caused huge damage to the arriving German reinforcements. I suffered terrible infantry casualties approaching the village and because I was unable to spot the German units in the village I was unable to get supporting fire from my ISU-152s. This got worse when the barbed wire on the edge of the village slowed me down and allowed German indirect artillery fire to disrupt my infantry further - targeting the gap in the wire I was trying to exploit. Eventually though I forced my way into the village with my 3 remaining ISU-152s and the remnant of my infantry (after locating small gaps in the wire). I managed to destroy all three PZ-IVs and this meant my assault guns could concentrate on the infantry in the ruins of the village. A really enjoyable battle against a really tough opponent. Respect to Ada.

Great scenario!

[mangus2000]

My perspective of my game against MR is that i moved to slow with my reinforcements towards the villiage. I took a fair bit of my defenses and protected the other villiage's left flank with mines and wire as a precaution against any deep thrusts he may have done. Looking back at the game i could have really used them in the main village to slow him down more but then hindsight is always 20-20:OHNO:

The opening barrage took just about all my occupying troops out and my Plt on the ridge at the back aswell, so i was left with next to no defense in place.

I took a route that bought my PzIV's onto the right of the village so there was fire from two angles, they also played havoc with his ISU's. I also had a Plt on the tanks ready to take the village along side the tanks.

The other Plt was trying to make its way on foot to the village but got held up quite badly. I miss timed the 120mm (i love them) mortar and had to reset it which did not help as we were right near the end of the game.

Holding and reinforcing the villiage is paramount and if i had taken MR's advice MR Quote (Run down the tree lined lanes in the trees with your infantry. The enemy can't see into the trees very well. Run about 100 meters then have them hide. This lets them rest before doing it all over again next turn. It also keeps incoming fire to a minimum.) I could have got my men closer quicker.

As it is i definatley found the covered route my PvIV's took to his flank helped immensly and would not hesitate to use it again.

Shame i didn't have a few more turns:angry:

Great scenario with lots of decision making if you want to win.:thumup:

[Mad Russian]

I managed a minor victory playing the Russians.

I really thought I had lost this so was surprised to find that I had achieved a minor victory. The 3 flags were still being contested at the end. My first rocket attack took place at the beginning of the game and I held back the second until later on. I'm glad I did because it appartently caused huge damage to the arriving German reinforcements. I suffered terrible infantry casualties approaching the village and because I was unable to spot the German units in the village I was unable to get supporting fire from my ISU-152s. This got worse when the barbed wire on the edge of the village slowed me down and allowed German indirect artillery fire to disrupt my infantry further - targeting the gap in the wire I was trying to exploit. Eventually though I forced my way into the village with my 3 remaining ISU-152s and the remnant of my infantry (after locating small gaps in the wire). I managed to destroy all three PZ-IVs and this meant my assault guns could concentrate on the infantry in the ruins of the village. A really enjoyable battle against a really tough opponent. Respect to Ada.

Great scenario!

You suffered terrible infantry casualties because his defenders were all in place and waiting for you. That's why the rockets were there to keep that from happening.

The JSU's can make a BIG difference in that situation though. They can level that village all by themselves and if I was going to hold the barrage back for later my Black Pigs would be paramount in destroying the German defenses.

The rockets are a mixed blessing. Use them early and the German reinforcements come into the fight mostly unhindered. Use them late and the original German defenses are more than capable of dealing you alot of misery.

It sounds like you needed an urban renewal project. Destroy the buildings with the JSU's. Area fire them. Don't try to find Germans to kill that pop in and out of LOS! Whenever you have a target that pops in and out of LOS area fire his location with your guns. That will normally take care of that. With area fire that is 152mm I guarantee it will take care of it.

Going through gaps in the wire is better than going through it but either can be done. The entire objective for your troops while they are in the wire is to keep the defenders heads down to allow your troops the time to get to the other side of the wire.

Also, did you notice that the JSU's had no trouble going over the wire? Did you load them up with infantry when they crossed and drop that infantry the very next turn on the other side with no movement penalties? That's how I got my first troops over the wire. Riding on the backs of my JSU's. I didn't advance them too far into the village unsupported though. German infantry is far from defenseless against armor.

This scenario is like most of mine, you have multiple choices to make. Both as the attacker and the defender. There is absolutely more than one way to win. Both sides have about an equal chance. I don't give players the luxury of alot of time to make changes though. I don't see that in real life and I don't put it in my scenarios. Decide on a plan, a bad plan is better than no plan. Then drive that plan home. You will get better at what you are capable of as you get more experience.

I'm glad that you liked it. I hope your game play will move your enjoyment of CM up a level after having played in the tournament.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

My perspective of my game against MR is that i moved to slow with my reinforcements towards the villiage. I took a fair bit of my defenses and protected the other villiage's left flank with mines and wire as a precaution against any deep thrusts he may have done. Looking back at the game i could have really used them in the main village to slow him down more but then hindsight is always 20-20:OHNO:

The opening barrage took just about all my occupying troops out and my Plt on the ridge at the back aswell, so i was left with next to no defense in place.

I took a route that bought my PzIV's onto the right of the village so there was fire from two angles, they also played havoc with his ISU's. I also had a Plt on the tanks ready to take the village along side the tanks.

The other Plt was trying to make its way on foot to the village but got held up quite badly. I miss timed the 120mm (i love them) mortar and had to reset it which did not help as we were right near the end of the game.

Holding and reinforcing the villiage is paramount and if i had taken MR's advice MR Quote (Run down the tree lined lanes in the trees with your infantry. The enemy can't see into the trees very well. Run about 100 meters then have them hide. This lets them rest before doing it all over again next turn. It also keeps incoming fire to a minimum.) I could have got my men closer quicker.

As it is i definatley found the covered route my PvIV's took to his flank helped immensly and would not hesitate to use it again.

Shame i didn't have a few more turns:angry:

Great scenario with lots of decision making if you want to win.:thumup:

You have to remember what is happening on the map. A German stronpoint is under attack. BOTH SIDES are going to be moving their forces quickly. The Germans to try to tip the scales in their favor with more defenders and the Soviets to try to overload the defenses. In either case the on the ground commanders will be moving people fast!!

You need to have that same sense of urgency. If you don't it will hurt you in this fight.

Your use of the PzIV's was textbook! They took my supporting armor out and turned my offensive into a, "hold on at all costs" operation. Which of course most of the small scale battles in WWII were. First the attack, then dig in for the counterattack.

The forces here are small but that doesn't mean this fight won't be intense. As Dan and I both found out it is very intense!

There are several keys laying around in this scenario to use to win.

Soviet: JSU's, Soviet Infantry, Katyusha, SPEED!

Germans: Wire/Mines/Trenches, PzIV's, reinforcing infantry, 120mm mortar, SPEED!

These variables should make every game of Black Pigs very different from the others in how it all plays out.

It was interesting that I killed one of my own JSU's with a rocket. I think it was probably worth it to get into the village almost unmolested and then secured in the ruins before the German counterattack hit me.

A few more turns, even two more, could have turned this all around.

That just shows the scenario is finely balanced. I don't expect either side to get a big victory difference here. It could happen but I wouldn't expect it often. This is a slugfest of the first order.

Neither side is going to come out of this one smiling and thinking what fun that was! Even the winner of this fight will be hurting.

Ours was a great match. Thanks Mangus for the game time! It was my first time of playing the Soviets and it was a tight race to see who was going to win. This time it was me....it could have just as easily been you.

Good Hunting.

MR

[ada]

I thought it would be total defeat, as things went bad from start.
At first turn, 300mm rocket barrage whiped out nearly 3 platoons and some support weapons in the village and around it.
By the time my reinforcment arrived, Antonius infantry was near barbed wire and ISUs were a little futher. As I recieved arty spotter with reinforcement and had a TRP on barbed wire, I was able to stall russian infantry advance for most of the game.
Armor warfare went terrible for me. First I was going to outflank ISUs with my tanks, but then decided that it will take to much time and advanced on the road, planning to use my edge in rate of fire and long-range accuracy. It was a complete disaster, ISUs managed to hit with first or second shot at 500+ meters, and I lost all tanks for just 2 ISUs. 3rd ISU was later knocked out by panzerschreck team, which survived initial barrage.
Then, second arty barrage whiped out my infantry reinforcements.
In the end, there were 3 ISUs without inf support driving around devastated village.

Still, I enjoyed game. It was very interesting and brutal battle.
Antonius is a very tough opponent.

[mangus2000]

This time it was me....it could have just as easily been you.

Good Hunting.

MR
You bet it'll be me next time :laugh:

[Mad Russian]

Just finished my battle with Cherper. First I want to say what an excellent job he did trying to take a very tough position.

Several Soviet players have made mention of the fact that the wire was hard to get over. The German players like that part of the scenario. The Germans aren't so enamoured of the Katy barrage that lands on the map!

Almost nobody makes mention of the mines. Cherper didn't make mention of them because he drove right through the same minefield TWICE without it attacking him. Including the last Pig that wreaked holy havoc on my defenders that were holding on by their fingernails.

The attack started with the full Katy barrage. It did, as you might figure tremendous damage to my forces. Not to worry though I have SOME men alive and I know that the Soviets will have to get by that wire!!

Down the road and over the field they came. Not much I can do. Not much I want to do. I certainly don't want to give targets to his BP's. So, we wait.

Across the wire and into the village he comes!!! Ah, but wait, his infantry gets hung on the wire! And his BP's advance by themselves into the village!

Almost immediately I kill one of them. Another I immoblize. The rest reverse out of the village. I hit the immobilized BP over and over. He sits there calmly firing round after round of 152mm destruction on my troops. Finally I retreat from his LOS!! I just can't take any more of that and he obviously isn't bothered by anything I'm doing.

Next comes the German troops! It's a good thing because the village is in the process of being overrun with Soviet assault troops. My troops start to move through the back village in short bounds. Those in the back village have already stated moving forward in short bounds.

Then his secondary attack hits the back village! At least two platoons attack!! My tanks take out some of this attack! My HMGs and a few infantry stop the rest of it.

My 120mm starts pummeling the forward village! The Soviet infantry go to ground and try to hold what they have. I continue to feed men from the back village into the fight!

I have things well in hand over the upstart Cherper!! Who does he think he is??? After all I'm the scenarios designer!!! That's when he starts killing my PzIV's at long range.

WHAT???!!!!

That shouldn't be happening! I've played the Soviets during playtests and I KNOW that the BP's don't like fighting tanks and that they will back away from them!! Ah but apparently I have not gotten close enough and the BP's take out all of my tanks at a 1 for 1 ratio.

Now my infantry is left with 2 BP's to take out themselves!!

This is going to be close no matter how you slice it. I have to hope that Cherper will get close enough for me to assault them. One of them runs over a mine and I do assault it!! ALRIGHT!!!! Now we're talking!!!

Then the other one moves forward, OVER THE MINEFIELD and gets bogged!!! ALRIGHT!!! His infantry is getting hit hard and he has started to pull back out of the village!! Put this one in the win column!!!

But wait....the game is going on....and the BP is not bogged any more and the Soviet infantry is coming back and the game goes on....

and on....

and on....

Long enough for me to begin to worry that the single JSU-152 could very likely turn this into a Soviet victory yet.

In the end the game stopped before that happened but it was happening. I won this by the narrowest of margins. The ONLY difference in our scores was the points for the victory locations I held...two of them....

This was a very good battle. It was in the hands of the gamers the whole time. Tactics were what won or lost it.

The Soviets did only two things wrong. They didn't destroy the village with 152mm fire. EVERYTHING in it!!! And they put their infantry leaders up to far and a position to be broken/routed/killed. You want to keep your leaders out of LOS on the ground/in buildings/craters/trees...whatever and HIDDEN!!

If Cherper had done those two things or even one of them I would have lost this fight.

Comments have been made at how much damage the artillery did to the defenders and how little all the others did. (this can be seen by looking at each unit's kill stats) In WWII the big killer was artillery. It shows it here. Even the German 120mm mortar was the top killer for the Germans in this scenario. It didn't make his day any better when I walked my mortar rounds from end to end of his attacking line.

Moral of that story...use all of the tools given to you. I would not have won this fight without every single tool I had.

I had a great time. The game was fun and the opponent was very good. It doesn't get any better than that!!!

Good Hunting.

MR