Best Armoured Cruiser of WW1

[KGB]

As title says, lets speak about best armoured cruiser. Saying "best" I mean not most resultative, but most technological, powerfull, wize-built and so on.

Among best I name Ruiryk, Blucher and Kurama.

What are your thoughts ?

[HMSWarspite]

As title says, lets speak about best armoured cruiser. Saying "best" I mean not most resultative, but most technological, powerfull, wize-built and so on.

Among best I name Ruiryk, Blucher and Kurama.

What are your thoughts ?

I always thought that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were nice ACs. And of course Aboukir, Cressy, and the other one advanced tactics by a huge amount in one afternoon!:laugh:

[KGB]

I always thought that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were nice ACs. And of course Aboukir, Cressy, and the other one advanced tactics by a huge amount in one afternoon!:laugh:

Sorry, have no information about Aboukir or Cressy. They are definately not WW1 ships.

[HMSWarspite]

Sorry, have no information about Aboukir or Cressy. They are definately not WW1 ships.

On a technicality there are:surprise: . The reference was a joke, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue (remembered the 3rd ship) were all torpedoed inside a couple of hours in the North sea by U9 on 22nd Sept 1914. So they were WW1 ships briefly, but were obsolete, and very short lived!:eek:

[kkoovvoo]

Well, of course all ACs were outclassed in all terms by BCs at the beginning of WW1 and thus obsolete.

Bluecher was best of them IMO.

[KGB]

On a technicality there are:surprise: . The reference was a joke, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue (remembered the 3rd ship) were all torpedoed inside a couple of hours in the North sea by U9 on 22nd Sept 1914. So they were WW1 ships briefly, but were obsolete, and very short lived!:eek:

:nervous:
My empty head forgot about these old ones :surprise:
Sorry for that.
Anyway, I cannot name these ACs as one of the best. They were build in 1901 nad 1902, so they are no match to any other younger ACs.

[HMSWarspite]

:nervous:
My empty head forgot about these old ones :surprise:
Sorry for that.
Anyway, I cannot name these ACs as one of the best. They were build in 1901 nad 1902, so they are no match to any other yanger ACs.

Agreed - mentioning them was a joke. All they did was show how vulnerable even quite big ships were to U boats. Bit like Defence at Jutland.

Bluecher a funny one: if you allow her as a AC, she was the best of the lot (seeing as she was effectively a dreadnought AC). As a BC, she suffers a bit!

[KGB]

We speak here only about ACs. Of course, BCs were superior, no doubt.

Bluecher was good, 25 knots, 200mm main belt, 12 210mm guns.
Russian AC of that age, Ryurik was another story - very wide and long 152mm belt, only 21 (some say 22) knots, but 4 254mm, 8 203mm and 20 120mm guns.
Japanese Kurama class AC was also slow - 21 knot, less armoured, but got 4 305mm, 8 203mm and 14 120mm.

[Bullethead]

Best WW1 AC? Interesting question.....

The Invincible-class ships weren't originally called "battlecruisers" because that term didn't exist when they were built. They were, in fact, conceived under the prevailing habit of the predreadnought era, of building AC versions of that year's BB design. As such, the Invincibles had the usual AC armor, the usual few knots of extra speed over the BB, and less firepower; they were called ACs in their early days. The only thing that really set them apart from previous ACs was using the same size main gun as the contemporary BB. However, that wasn't much of a step forward because the trends of the time clearly were pointing in that direction, just as they were for putting more 12" on BBs. So in a sense, the Invincible-class ships were excellent uber ACs in keeping with the ideas of the predreadnought era, and could legitimately be called the best ACs of WW1. It was the subsequent designs that changed the idea from AC to the new term BC, and gave them all a bad name ;).

However, if by "AC" you mean strictly ships of the predreadnought AC type with only 4 big guns, then there are a number of other good examples, most of which are pretty obscure in the West because they weren't in the North Sea. Most of these ships were designed before Dreadnought but usually entered service afterwards. Here are some of my favorites:

Russian:
Until the untimely death of Adm. Essen, the Baltic Fleet was pretty aggressive. The Black Sea Fleet was, too, but didn't have ACs.

Rurik, completed 1908. Participated in many actions in the Baltic, usually as flagship.

15100 tons
4x 10"/50
8x 8"/50
6" belt
21 knots


Italian:
Due to a lack of fleet actions in the Med, these ships saw mostly patrol, escort, and bombardment work, when they worked at all.

Regina Elena-class, completed 1907/8. While officially classed as BBs, they were in all respects actually the biggest, baddest classic predread ACs ever built, almost proto-BCs. This is how they were used in WW1, too, so I consider them as ACs instead of BBs.

12550 tons
2x 12"/40
8x 8"/45
9.8" belt
21-22 knots


San Giorgio-class. True ACs, completed 1910/11

10167 tons
4x 10"/45
8x 7.5"/45
7.8" belt
23 knots


Averof, actually a Greek ship, but built by the Italians as a near-sister of their own Pisa, which was the slightly smaller predecessor of San Giorgio. Averof's service spanned from the pre-WW1 Balkan Wars to WW2 convoy escort duty, and she is preserved today as a museum.

9958 tons
4x 9.2"/45
8x 7.5"/45
8" belt
22+ knots


Japan:
The IJN effectively flushed von Spee out of the Pacific without doing much to actively pursue him. Most IJN efforts were about taking over German colonies. However, they also escorted the ANZAC convoys and some ships served in the Med as escorts and ASW ships.

Ibuki, a hybrid straddling both eras. The class was designed in predreadnought times and was one of the reasons for the gunpower jump in Invincible. But Ibuki wasn't laided down until 1907, so the design was reworked to give her turbines, unlike her sister Kurama.

14636 tons
4x 12"/45
8x 8"/45
7" belt
21 knots

[KGB]

By true AC I mean exactly what u've posted, Bullethead.
Anyway, Invincible class ships cannot be counted as ACs.
1) They had four twin 12" guns, twice than any other pre-dreadnought ship.
2) They were more than 20.000 tonns full-displacement. This is 1/4 more than any other AC, and most pre-dreadnoughts.
3) They were 25.5 knots maximum speed. Damn, the fastest PC of RJW, Novik, was 0.5 knots slower and had 6 120mm guns.

Karuma or Ibuki got same caliber main guns, but twice less, and Bluecher, while almost that fast, had MUCH less firepower.

PS: Forgot to mention one more thing.
4) They got 102mm secondary artillery, while some ACs got third artillery of 120mm.

[Bullethead]

Now I have 2 questions myself:

1. Which was the most useful AC of WW1?
Many ACs on both sides gave long and useful service in unglamourous tasks such as escort, patrol, and blockade. But this was par for the course, both for them and for many other types of old and/or weak ships. So this doesn't count. What I want to see is ACs that made dramatic or at least important contributions at critical points in the naval war.

2. What is your favorite WW1 "AC Moment"?
This can include disasters :).

[Rhetor]

Now I have 2 questions myself:

1. Which was the most useful AC of WW1?
Many ACs on both sides gave long and useful service in unglamourous tasks such as escort, patrol, and blockade. But this was par for the course, both for them and for many other types of old and/or weak ships. So this doesn't count. What I want to see is ACs that made dramatic or at least important contributions at critical points in the naval war.

I guess one must look into the Baltic campaign. German "Prinz Adalbert" and "Roon" and Russian "Riurik", "Bajan" and "Admiral Makarov" (practically identical to the "Bajan" we can see in DG) took part in most of the operations and battles, including the Battle of Gotland. The ACs formed the core of most task forces operating in open sea; even predreadnought BBs usually kept close to minefields and shore batteries.


2. What is your favorite WW1 "AC Moment"?
This can include disasters :).

Favourite - i guess it would be the whole von Spee's epopee.

[Hinchinbrooke]

I know they were an unfortunate class, but I've always had a liking for the RN's "Warriors". Good steamers, good sea boats and powerfully armed (6 x 9.2", 4 x 7.5", etc.). Formidable opponents for others of their type, if they'd had more luck............ and proper usage.

[Bullethead]

I guess one must look into the Baltic campaign. German "Prinz Adalbert" and "Roon" and Russian "Riurik", "Bajan" and "Admiral Makarov" (practically identical to the "Bajan" we can see in DG) took part in most of the operations and battles, including the Battle of Gotland. The ACs formed the core of most task forces operating in open sea; even predreadnought BBs usually kept close to minefields and shore batteries.

Good choices. I figure the Russian cruisers you mention have the edge on the Germans, because the Russian ships stayed in commission and played important roles in the biggest naval operations in the Baltic--the whole Moon Sound thing in 1917. The German ACs were hulks by then, but the vastly outnumbered and out-gunned Russian cruisers, even with post-Revolution indiscipline and the officers leading with guns to their heads, faced the onslaught herorically.

Using the same criteria, I'd rank Slava as the most useful and important predreadnought (with 2nd place to her sometime consort Grazdanin, nee' Tsessarevitch), because she pretty much stymied the German navy, even with facing overwhelming numbers of dreadnoughts, for about 1.5 years. She died hard and she died well :headbang:

My own choice for the most useful AC goes to the Austro-Hungarian Sankt Georg, mostly for dramatic effect. In 1917, at the crisis of the largest engagement in the Adriatic, the A-H CLs were about to pay the price for their audacity. The flagship was dead in the water, the whole A-H force was outgunned, outnumbered, and basically cut off from home, and the combined Brit, Italian, and French CL/DD forces were closing in for the kill. The trapped A-H CLs were pretty much the most important ships in the KuK KM, without which they had no real offensive potential under the circumstances. And they were all about to die. But then Sankt Georg arrived in the nick of time to save the day :horse:

[Rhetor]

Using the same criteria, I'd rank Slava as the most useful and important predreadnought (with 2nd place to her sometime consort Grazdanin, nee' Tsessarevitch), because she pretty much stymied the German navy, even with facing overwhelming numbers of dreadnoughts, for about 1.5 years. She died hard and she died well :headbang:

Actually, the first naval history book I have ever read was "The IWW in the Baltic" by E. Kosiarz, one of the foremost Polish naval historians. It was late 1980s, I was less than 10 years old, and I found the book on the shelf in my grandmothers'. I remember looking at the maps, at the photos, and thinking "when this 'Slava' will finally be sunk?" General opinion about Russia in Poland was not very high back then, for obvious reasons. Thankfully, its all in the past now.
"Slava" was truly one of the most useful Russian warships. In 1915 she stood her ground against predreadnoughts "Braunschweig" and "Elsass", got battered duelling with dreadnoughts "Posen" and "Nassau" a few days later, and finally in 1917 she was crippled and scuttled after putting up brave fight against "König" and "Kronprinz".

By then my general knowledge about history was not very extensive also. Even before I read this book I scanned it and looked at every photograph. One of these was the launching of SMS "Baden" in Danzig shipyard in 1916. I immediately asked my grandma: "Why on earth did we build a battleship for Germany?" :-D

The shipyard where "Baden" and many other German capital ships were build is actually the very same shipyard in which Solidarity movement begun. The German trademark red brick buildings of this shipyard survived both world wars, and even though the shipyard itself would mostly be converted into a modern financial district, the buildings are registered as landmarks and will be preserved, along with the Solidarity museum.

[Bullethead]

Actually, the first naval history book I have ever read was "The IWW in the Baltic" by E. Kosiarz, one of the foremost Polish naval historians.

I wish I could read Polish. It looks like he's written extensively on subjects in which I'm very interested, but for which I can find no books in languages I that can read even 1/2way.

By then my general knowledge about history was not very extensive also. Even before I read this book I scanned it and looked at every photograph. One of these was the launching of SMS "Baden" in Danzig shipyard in 1916. I immediately asked my grandma: "Why on earth did we build a battleship for Germany?" :-D

LOL! I'd never thought about this, but I can easily understand how the spelling of that city's name and the history of its ownership really would have confused a kid who only knew the current situation :D.

The shipyard where "Baden" and many other German capital ships were build is actually the very same shipyard in which Solidarity movement begun. The German trademark red brick buildings of this shipyard survived both world wars, and even though the shipyard itself would mostly be converted into a modern financial district, the buildings are registered as landmarks and will be preserved, along with the Solidarity museum.

Well, that's another entry on the list of things to see before I die.

[Rhetor]

I wish I could read Polish. It looks like he's written extensively on subjects in which I'm very interested, but for which I can find no books in languages I that can read even 1/2way.

Unfortunately, Polish is a very complex language. Seven grammatical cases, numerous exceptions in the inflections, and spelling quite different from any Western language... I do admire those Westerners who managed to learn Polish really well.


Well, that's another entry on the list of things to see before I die.

Should you ever come here, drop me a line. We have some good brands of beer around here :-D

[Bullethead]

Unfortunately, Polish is a very complex language. Seven grammatical cases, numerous exceptions in the inflections, and spelling quite different from any Western language... I do admire those Westerners who managed to learn Polish really well.

I'd probably have to move to Chicago to learn the language. I've seen bi-lingual signs there in English and Polish, instead of the usual English and Spanish :).

Should you ever come here, drop me a line. We have some good brands of beer around here :-D

Good beer is reason enough to go ANYWHERE :D