Air Assets

[B-snafu]

I've read in some posts & elsewhere that the air asset's provided in CM are an abstraction and unreliabe (attempt at simulating infancy of air to ground support in individual wwII battles). given that...

1. When a (players i.e yours) plane makes an attack run and you notice no actual attack from it (appears to be just a fly by) is there a parameter in the game that makes this happen? Or is it possibly making a bomb or gun run on a unit that is not visible to you due to fog of war option and you don't see the attack nor damage due to the fow?? (does that happen)?

case in point..
currently playing a scenario where the intel brief states stuka in my available forces and "luftwaft will be cordinated" in reserves. also states enemy believed to have very limited if at all air resources.

In turn 15 right now, have had five planes (that I noticed) fly over already in the game at different turns. Four I believe were mine as I watched (in replay) an enemy small calibur aa unit trace "stucka87b" as it crossed the map (did not fire at it though) on one of the planes. After following it in replay multiple times and observing map--witnessed no bomb or gun attacks. same with 3 others where I was able to follow the plane shadow and noise across the map with no visible attack. The fifth plane (not in game order) was the only one that made a visible bombing and that was actually against me. It left a huge crater on the map, and took out the unbuttoned vehicle commander of my nearby stug assaut gun. I think it might of been my plane actually--sounded like a stuka diving right before the bomb drop.

Will the Stuka's only attack armor? No currently visible enemy armor on the map (in units revealed so far in my sights) and I believe the briefing only stated enemy infantry bat. Is it possible the stuka's attacked armor currently not visible to me? But I found no trace of crator or attack anywhere on map.
I never really rely on air assets but it would have been nice for at least one of those planes to make a run on and at least suppress one of the enemy AT emplacements that were chewing up my badly misused assault guns:laugh: .
Aftertought--could those flybys be possible recon flights--does cm simulate this?

Sorry for the long post,
Snafu

[KG_Jag]

As always, it helps to read the game manual. This is what appears on the subject at pages 136-7 of my printed CMBB manual and on pages 61-2 of the PDF version:

"Air support

Both sides can receive or purchase close air support
(CAS) for a battle. However, the player does NOT control
the actions of his planes. They roam above the battlefield,
spot and engage targets at their own discretion.

Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin does NOT
simulate carpet-bombings or large scale raids. These are
outside of the game's scope. Instead, the fighting on the
ground is intended to take place AFTER such bombings,
and close air support in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to
Berlin means the appearance of small formations of fighterbombers
(maybe just a single plane), over which company
and battalion commanders have no immediate control.

There are various plane models available for purchase
to both Axis and Allies in CMBB, and depending on the
models chosen, have different armament layouts, and
therefore engagement capabilities. Some planes might be
better suited for anti-armor attacks, while others will be
better against infantry and other “soft” targets. In order to
allow for air cover in smaller battles also, some planes can
also be purchased with full armament loadout (expensive)
or for simple “strafing” (much less expensive), with the
latter usually meaning that a limited number of strafing
runs with MGs will be allowed, although the plane could
theoretically carry more ammunition/armament.

When you click on an anti-aircraft weapon targeting a
plane, you will be able to see the plane model displayed as
a tag on the targeting line. Otherwise, planes are not
visible in CMBB other than as a shadow on the ground.

How often a plane attacks and conducts strafing and/or
bombing runs depends largely on how much anti-aircraft
fire it encounters (i.e. how many AA assets the opposition
has on the map). Heavy AA fire can make a plane break off
its attack prematurely and even become damaged or shot
down (this will be indicated as an explosion in the sky, and
later displayed in the After Action Report (see the section
about AAR).

Besides dedicated AA (Flak) guns, vehicles equipped
with AA machineguns will engage airplanes unless they are
busy firing at ground targets, or are buttoned up and
unable to access the MG. Infantry will rarely if ever fire at
planes, choosing instead to save ammunition.

Since airplanes have to spot targets just like ground
units do, it does improve survivability for the player under
air attack to hide units in trees or other cover. A tank
sitting out in an open field is an easy target. The TacAI will
try to move your units into cover when they are subject to
an air attack, but often by that time it’s too late.

Fighter pilots can misidentify targets and attack friendly
units by mistake. Do not be too surprised when, especially
while locked in close combat with an enemy, a couple of
“friendly” bombs take out YOUR last tank!

Fighter-Bombers appear only in clear weather (and
cannot be purchased in other weather conditions in the
editor or Quick Battle purchase screen). No fighter-bomber
activity is allowed during the night.

Note: even though the Russians are known to have employed
night bomber runs quite often, research indicates that these
were conducted on an operational scale, and not in a close air
support role to aid nighttime ground combat."

[B-snafu]

Thank you KC_JAG for the reply,

Don't have cmbb, just got the old cmbo manual and the quick start & PDF for cmak. I had read the manual in past (why I rember the abstraction) so when I recently started back into cm, and since I dislike PDF, just started playing again after a quick browse and letting it come back to me as I go. I don't remember (probably does) if the cmak manual has the phrase "and therefore engagement capabilities" in it's wording which clarified my cuoriosity. There was no AA fire in the situations and a few AT emplacements were in open terrain (albiet trenches) that were actively engaging on map units so I assumed no problem spotting. Although soft target-figure an AT emplacement would be worth the stuka's time w/no armor on the map but with the game abstracting my battle being one of many that the stuka will possibly fly over--I guess they didn't want to help a bloke out and waste a tankbuster. (and I forgot about the friendly attack chance)

Apologize for the "manual type" question--know it's probably irritating for some of the members who have been around for awhile answering the same ones over and over but I appreciate your response.

Regards,
Snafu

[Palantir]

The short answer on Aircraft is after many tests by many people:

Don't spend purchase points on them as the randomness of their actions is too great & you have no control over them at all (neither do designers btw). Instead, purchase other armor unit's or support units that you can directly control. :halo:

The usefullness of aircraft is so random that you can never tell if they will make just one pass or 3 passes (etc) if they will attack open armor, infanrty, or if they will attack friendly targets nearly as often as enemy targets. (pilot experience does help here)

[KG_Jag]

Kerry, I generally agree with your conclusion.

However, there are time frames in the war that I will consider buying them. For example when I recently played the Russians during October 1943 in our clan war with FGM. The Germans could buy Panthers and/or Tigers. The strongest anti-tank AFV I could buy was a turret-less SU-85, which comes only two to a platoon. To even up the armor odds I bought a fighter-bomber (not enough points were available for an IL-2, which was my first choice).

The map I play on also affects my decision concerning whether or not to consider an air purchase. If the map is a very large and open one with opposing forces starting off far from one another, that situation presents the best environment for air support.

[Palantir]

You knew this was coming Bill...

So umm, what results did you get with your aircraft? :hmmm:
I hope it was a success to indicate that there is some real game worth to buying A/C.

Your reason to buy A/C is valid, but as a rule if you have the option optout to such a hit & miss unit.

All those tests (and games) show how unpredictable A/C are: flying right over exposed enemy armor to attack 1/2 tracks & INF- and even friendly units!

Ex- The results of just one scenario played 3 times with A/C:
Game 1) Attacked & destroyed 2 enemy tanks on the backside of a hill! :devil:
Game 2) Flew over enemy tanks & obliterated a friendly Inf Plt. :argh:
Game 3) Made 3 passes missed everything. :gas:

[KG_Jag]

Confirmed kills from my aircraft were one each of the the following:

1. 251/1 HT
2. 251/2 HT
3. 251/9 HT
4. No Russian units were attacked or affected.

Other infantry and crew casualties are likely, but cannot be confirmed. The map was quite large but featured at least moderate cover.

But the best part was the indirect results of the air attacks by my single fighter-bomber. The air attacks delayed the Germans and allowed me to secure all VLs, except for one minor VL closest to German initial SU zone The Germans and I were approaching this VL at the same time. In the end, I held every VL except this one, which was contested by my infantry and his gun-less Pz IV.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

I would suggest that if someone would like to see massive killing power in Airplanes that they should play the CMBB stock scenario - "Borisovka Station" and play the Germans. Your butt will be saved by the Luftwaffe in this game. That map is mostly open fields and the attacking Russian Armor is easy prey for HS-129s. The Russians get some planes too and have some firepower of their own.

[TacCovert4]

Airplanes are a bit hit or miss, but a solid investment as long as you pick the cheapest aircraft that has the weapons to do the job. If you want a platform for taking out soft skin vehicles, get a plane with 8mm MG attacks only. For taking out guns and light armored vehicles, 12 or 20mm cannons are a must. For tanks, you can choose between either a plane mounting heavy cannons specialized for AT duty, or a plane carrying bombs in excess of 250 pounds.

Always remember, buy the weapons package you need for the job you expect it to do, and spend the extra points on experience. Almost never buy a heavier plane at the expense of EXPERIENCE!

[Mad Russian]

The plane MUST have an experience level of at least Veteran before it will be of much more value than 50-50 it attacks either you opponent.

When I put airpower in my scenarios if the situation warrants a confused situtation I get average pilots and they will attack anything. Veteran pilots will usually attack enemy formations. Crack pilots will rarely mistake friendly forces and attack them. Elite pilots will always attack enemy formations.

For QB's they are indeed a wild card. In made to order scenarios they can be much more predictable if you need them to be.

Good Hunting.

MR