Artillery issues

[Don Maddox]

I've been working with the RCP calculators and I'm running into some problems. According to the DA weapons database, a typical FA battlion of SP M109's has an RCP of 10. According to the RCP calculator an M109 battalion (3x6) has a strength of 18. That's nearly double, so something doesn't add up.

[CPangracs]

I've been working with the RCP calculators and I'm running into some problems. According to the DA weapons database, a typical FA battlion of SP M109's has an RCP of 10. According to the RCP calculator an M109 battalion (3x6) has a strength of 18. That's nearly double, so something doesn't add up.Just to help belay any confusion, you DO realize that the RCP has absolutely NOTHING to do with an arty unit's firing on targets, right? The RCP is ONLY for direct fire engagements. So, if your arty units are getting regularly engaged by large formations, then there is a problem!;)

This is one reason we wanted the DA weapons editor created so that we may more accurately reflect different unit sizes. What you are doing is taking the Battery RCP and applying that to the Battalion,...which, of course, makes sense. We have had to do the same for Mech Companies and other types of units.

It's all "relative" anyway, right?:)

[Don Maddox]

Just to help belay any confusion, you DO realize that the RCP has absolutely NOTHING to do with an arty unit's firing on targets, right? The RCP is ONLY for direct fire engagements. So, if your arty units are getting regularly engaged by large formations, then there is a problem!
Okay, I don't find anything about this in the DA manual. If the RCP doesn't apply to artillery combat, then how is combat effected by different types of units (besides the obvious difference of range)? There must be some way to determine the relative effectiveness of two different artillery units, right? :hmmm:

This is one reason we wanted the DA weapons editor created so that we may more accurately reflect different unit sizes. What you are doing is taking the Battery RCP and applying that to the Battalion,...which, of course, makes sense. We have had to do the same for Mech Companies and other types of units.


Well, I didn't think so. There are battery-sized elements listed as well, but I was using the battalion RCP. The only way the battalions that are listed are accurate is if they only have 10 assigned vehicles. I've never seen a TO&E like that. A standard artillery battalion should have 3 batteries of 6 or 8 vehicles each, which yields an RCP of around 18. Either the "battalions" listed in the DA weapons database only have 10 assigned vehicles, or the RCP calculator is innacurate.

If the RCP of artillery units isn't used for artillery missions, then the only difference it makes is if the artillery unit is task organized. This process seems to have quirks as well. When an artillery unit is task organized under another unit, then it will fire an artillery mission (prior to ground combat) whenever the parent unit's footprint comes into contact with an enemy unit. What bothers me here is that the artillery unit's RCP is also added to the parent unit's RCP, thus providing a sort of "double punch." The artillery unit not only attacks automatically prior to ground combat, but this setup seems to imply the artillery unit also is using its combat power in a direct fire role. Something seems strange here...

[CPangracs]

Okay, I don't find anything about this in the DA manual. If the RCP doesn't apply to artillery combat, then how is combat effected by different types of units (besides the obvious difference of range)? There must be some way to determine the relative effectiveness of two different artillery units, right? :hmmm:



Well, I didn't think so. There are battery-sized elements listed as well, but I was using the battalion RCP. The only way the battalions that are listed are accurate is if they only have 10 assigned vehicles. I've never seen a TO&E like that. A standard artillery battalion should have 3 batteries of 6 or 8 vehicles each, which yields an RCP of around 18. Either the "battalions" listed in the DA weapons database only have 10 assigned vehicles, or the RCP calculator is innacurate.

If the RCP of artillery units isn't used for artillery missions, then the only difference it makes is if the artillery unit is task organized. This process seems to have quirks as well. When an artillery unit is task organized under another unit, then it will fire an artillery mission (prior to ground combat) whenever the parent unit's footprint comes into contact with an enemy unit. What bothers me here is that the artillery unit's RCP is also added to the parent unit's RCP, thus providing a sort of "double punch." The artillery unit not only attacks automatically prior to ground combat, but this setup seems to imply the artillery unit also is using its combat power in a direct fire role. Something seems strange here...
The arty effect is based on the TYPE of arty it is,...i.e., Tube vs. Rocket,...but again, it's all relative. As for the RCP of a battalion, it reflects the addition of the M2's on the 109's and the FAASV's, as well as the small arms and LAW/SMAW weapons on hand. It's not that strange when you think of an arty Bn's small arms taken together . As in my other post, the weps database was made a long time ago, so these numbers may not exactly fit today's units/scenarios. You can always change the base RCP of the default units using the editor to whatever you want.

[Jim Lunsford]

In DA, the unit RCP for every unit represents its relative combat power for its primary mission. Thus the artillery RCP is the realtive value of its fire support mission. The direct fire algorthym adjusts the unit's RCP for direct combat. An artillery battalion with a RCP of 10 will not have nearly that much RCP when it runs into an infantry battalion in ground combat.

Note: RCP values vary widely; even in the Army. They are a planners best guess of the relative power of a speciifc type unit compared to a baseline unit which he/she assigned a value of one. That may be the reason the calculator you used had a different value. When I first created DA, I used the unclassified RCP that CGSC provided students.

Jim

[Don Maddox]

In DA, the unit RCP for every unit represents its relative combat power for its primary mission. Thus the artillery RCP is the realtive value of its fire support mission. The direct fire algorthym adjusts the unit's RCP for direct combat. An artillery battalion with a RCP of 10 will not have nearly that much RCP when it runs into an infantry battalion in ground combat.

Note: RCP values vary widely; even in the Army. They are a planners best guess of the relative power of a speciifc type unit compared to a baseline unit which he/she assigned a value of one. That may be the reason the calculator you used had a different value. When I first created DA, I used the unclassified RCP that CGSC provided students.

Jim
Okay, that's the answer I was looking for. This is how I thought it was from the beginning. CPangracs' earlier reply was not entirely clear to me and I think I misintepreted what he was saying. Now I'm tracking.

Thanks for the clarification.