Fun Factor?

[KG_Norad]

Now that you guys have been playing this game again, for a while what kind of fun factor does it have? Would PBEM be fun? How many scenarios come with the game and about how many are available elsewhere? This is one game I have not picked up yet but it has been in the back of my mind.

[cbelva]

Now that you guys have been playing this game again, for a while what kind of fun factor does it have? Would PBEM be fun? How many scenarios come with the game and about how many are available elsewhere? This is one game I have not picked up yet but it has been in the back of my mind.
Personally, I find it a lot of fun. The interface is fairly easy and straightforward and the scenario editor is easy to use too. It is a simulation and you have to like the scale. It is not the same scale of Tacops or ATF. You are manuvering Bns, Bdes and, divs. There are only a few scenarios which come out of the box and there has not been many which have been released(6 or 7 if I remember right and about 5 which are floating around). I have made several for myself, but has not released them because I am not sure of copy rights on the maps I used. I am hoping that DA takes off. It has a few bugs which still need to be worked out. We are expecting a new patch any day now.

[Don Maddox]

DA has a different feel to it than most other wargames. There are a couple of reasons for this. For starters, DA introduces the concept of unit "footprint." What exactly does this mean? Well, all wargames actually have a footprint, you just don't think about it. Let's take TOAW as an example. In TOAW, the scale of the game is variable, however, each unit occupies one hex and is considered to take up that entire hex. That doesn't mean other units can't be there too, but it does mean that any unit in the hex is considered to have a portion of its strength everywhere in the hex and any enemy that comes into direct contact with this "footprint" (the hex) will be attacked.

Most wargames use this same system. Some games use the brigade as the basic unit while others use the platoon. But what ties all of these together is that almost all use a hex system of some sort to represent how far a unit can move in a given period of time and how much ground it can occupy (although in some games units can "shoot" into other hexes, thus extending their invisible footprint).

In DA, the grid which effects movement (which are squares instead of hexes) is completely separate from unit foortprint (which are generally circles). The unit footprint is variable throughout the game as the unit's combat power changes. More powerful units have a much larger footprint. As units suffer losses or other problems their unit footprint is reduced, making them less effective. This system gives DA a somewhat different feel from other wargames, even though is actually accomplishing the same thing.

DA is also simultaneous resolution, which like Combat Mission, adds a degree of realism to the system. Both players plot their moves at the same time and then the game engine runs through that turn in real-time.

DA also goes to some lengths to punish players who try to play it like Command & Conquer. Tank rushes and other nonesense will end in disaster, nor can players ignore the more subtle aspects of modern conflict like ELINT and S2. Players must carefully coordinate and plan their moves as combat power is limited and once you lose it, you usually won't get it back within the time frame of most scenarios.

DA also differs in one other aspect: players are usually restricted to a degree to how they can operate. Real world military operations are planned and executed using an elaborate system of objectives and "phase lines" which help commanders control thier units and limit fratricide. Most scenarios begin with the phase lines and objectives already laid out for the player. Furthermore, the player is given a mission in the form of an operations order which the player must adhere to. Now the game system contains no actual code that prohibits players from manuevering outside the operational boundaries, it's basically an honor system. Scenario authors could, of course, design scenarios without operational limits and allow the players to come up with their own plan of execution. Real world commanders usually don't get that degree of freedom except at very high levels of command, however, the game will allow it if you wanted to play that way.

There are about ten (give or take) official scenarios available, and these cover fighting at the NTC, Warsaw Pact vs. NATO operations in Germany, some hypothetical battles in Kuwait, and a hypothetical battle in Kansas. There are also some user-designed scenarios available for the Falkland Islands war, and some other ones in development.

DA plays best when the primary unit scale is either the brigade or the battalion. I have yet to see what I would call a "large" scenario, however, Jim Lunsford has made changes to the game engine which significantly increase the unit limits. How well would DA play with several divisions vs. several divisions? I'm not sure, but I'm testing that theory now.

[KG_Norad]

How many turns on average are the scenarios? Do they have a variable ending possibility?

[switch_back]

Most of the Scenarios are on average about 15 turns in total, but you can change the time scale of a turn, either 1 hour or 2 hour combat and movement resolution time scales. So most scenarios will cover pretty much a maximum of a 30 hour period.

As far as I know there is no facility for a variable turn limit, unlike Combat mission, but at this level of command a variable turn limit is not required, for example mopping up is considered to be commanded at a lower level and is not neccessary for game resolution and cannot decide the battle.

Hope this helps ;)

[cbelva]

Regarding number of turns, the maximum number of turns that a game can have is 50. As Switch Back stated, the time scale of a turn can be set to either 1 hour or 2 hours. Therefore a scenario could last as long as 100 hours (about 4 days of combat).

[switch_back]

WOW :surprise: I didnt actually know that was the maximum numbers of turns that could be placed into a scenario, that would make one long game!!! I would imagine it would be really difficult to design a scenario that covers that sort of time span... or has it already been done??

I can barely make a scenario that covers 18 turns effectivley! :crosseye:

[cbelva]

WOW :surprise: I didnt actually know that was the maximum numbers of turns that could be placed into a scenario, that would make one long game!!! I would imagine it would be really difficult to design a scenario that covers that sort of time span... or has it already been done??

I can barely make a scenario that covers 18 turns effectivley! :crosseye:
I have one I created on the first 4 days of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I created it just to see if I could do it. I will release it if I can confirm that there are no copy right problems with the map. It was a map of Iraqi that was being used on the internet during the war last summer. Personally, it is an interesting scenario to play. It gives you a feel for the supply problems the 3rd ID and marines had to deal with.

[switch_back]

Sounds fantastic ;) well done!!

I would be interested to see what the scenario is like if your ever able to post it, it would be an experience in itself, I have never played a scenario that long before!

Good work Cbelva :thumup:

[Don Maddox]

There are some TOAW and Panzer Campaigns scenarios that are much larger than that. There are a few of those that will take two dedicated players 6-12 months to complete. It all depends on how much time and effort the players are willing to put into it.

I have not seen a DA scenario of that size yet. Some of the scenarios I mentioned above cover time periods of six weeks to eight months in game terms. Although DA is basically modelling the same scale (battalion/brigade-sized units), the overall scope of the game is much more limited.

[KG_Norad]

Can you have very small but very effective special forces type units, and would you be able to insert these types of units behind enemy lines to disrupt logistics and communications? :love:

[KG_Norad]

POA-2 Has a lot of things going on in the back ground but from what some have posted it seems hard to tell what things are affecting a battle and what things are not.

Does DA have this problem as well? I am especially interested in the logistics, psyops, and electronic warfare parts of the game. I do not think I would be very interested in the game if I could not tell if these were contributing to my victory or not.
How does DA handle these more indirect factors of combat? If I have Psyops teams well placed will there be some kind of tangible & disernable effect or report?

Also if I don't have them well placed will I know it so I can make adjustments?

[cbelva]

Can you have very small but very effective special forces type units, and would you be able to insert these types of units behind enemy lines to disrupt logistics and communications? :love:
Yes, there are special forces units in the game and they can be inserted behind enemy lines to disrupt logistics, etc.

[Don Maddox]

Norad, all the things you mentioned are indeed modelled in DA. Furthermore, they are modelled in such a way that the effects are tangable and visible. In POA2 there are a lot of really deep functions that are not always clear in how they effecting the game. In DA, it's generally a little more obvious what's happening and why. The FOW in DA isn't nearly as brutal as it is in POA2, but then again these two simulations are modelling the fight at different echelons of command.

You can have small units of rangers or special forces in the game. They are fairly limited in their capabilities though. They can be used to disrupt enemy operations in the rear, but getting them there can be a bit tricky. They also won't survive long if they come into contact with a BCT or something like that.

One of the coolest features of DA is the UAVs. This sim does a fairly good job of handling UAVs, although they don't sport the sheer level of detail the UAVs in POA2 have. Nevertheless, they're a lot of fun to use and they do provide the commander with a tremendous S2 tool.