Portugal

[BigDuke66]

Where would you see Portugal in an Nazi Europe?
Neutral, on Axis side or Allied side or even as part of Spain?

[BigDuke66]

I know it's a hard question but at least some suggestion would be fine.

[Chuck?]

Portugal would of been with the Allies I think if Spain got in the war.

[Mantis]

I believe you can assume Portugal to be allied under any circumstances barring the following:

- An Allied DoW on Portugal itself

- A defeated Europe (Russia, or Russia&UK) with Spain suddenly becoming an 'active' Axis nation.

[Ben Turner]

Does anyone have any information on the Portugese domestic armed forces at this time? I have details on their armoured vehicles (all 8 of them) and their air force. Other than that though all I know was that they fielded 3 divisions (IIRC) which may well have been military districts rather than real divisions.

[jaugusto72]

Well, the portuguese perhaps to be a fascist regime in this time...is a old english allied..fighting in wwi.
Lisbon was a espionage center for the nazis and i think is possible sectors in govern yet hungry with the english for the 1890 ultimatum....maybe 80 ally/20 axis.

Jose Augusto

[BigDuke66]

Can you tell me more about this "1890 ultimatum"?


Consider one thing, europe is now ruled by Germany and Spain has joined the Axis, would Portugal really join the Allies in this situation?
Especially when you think of the fact that Portugal supported the fachist in the Spanish Civil War.

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by BigDuke66
Consider one thing, europe is now ruled by Germany and Spain has joined the Axis, would Portugal really join the Allies in this situation?

I would say it doesn't really matter at that stage. It's not like Portugal's 8 tankettes are going to blaze through Fascist Europe liberating nation after nation.

[jaugusto72]

Well, in the last decade of century XIX, Portugal has great plans of build a new barzil in your colonies of africa...but is need join Mozambique and angola....Theportuguese begin the colonization of Rodesia and the British send for Portugal a ultimatun requesting the retreat all portuguese of rodesia or war (in this exact terms)
It destroy completely the portuguese plans..and shaken the relations between Portugal and the british empire (Fast the British annex Rodhesia....

Jose Augusto

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by jaugusto72
Well, in the last decade of century XIX...

By that time the colonisation of Rhodesia was well underway. It wouldn't very well be called Rhodesia otherwise....

[jaugusto72]

Well, i dont know if is really rhodesia..tha land between Mozambique and Angola....but i am right about this question...Portugal begin the colonization but was stopped for british interesting in keep a line of lands between Egypt and South Africa.

J.Augusto

[Ben Turner]

Yes, this idea of East-West/North-South domination was very big in the Scramble for Africa. France tried to get East-West domination but was thwarted at Fashoda. Portugal wanted it too and was thwarted in Rhodesia. Britain wanted North-South domination but was thwarted in Tanginyka. Then we had wwi... :D

[Mark Stevens]

Portugal was an authoritarian, right wing dictatorship under General Salazar, which had supported the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War with supplies and volunteers, and was therefore a 'natural' Axis client state. BUT Franco's ambitions for Spain, at their widest, included annexing the country - it had been ruled by Spain for a period after 1580. You also have to take into account that Portugal, even more than Spain, is a purely Atlantic country, i.e. very open to Allied military and economic pressure so long as they controlled the seas. Their 'Empire' in sub-Saharan Africa included what are now Angola and Mozambique, plus the small enclave of Goa in India, and Macau in China. It also had, for obvious reasons, close ties with Brazil.

It's armed forces in WWII were pretty well worthless.

[Rastamann]

Views on war in Portugal were, as in WWI, very contradictory - while there was a large popular support for Britain, there was also support for Germany, though not exactly on account of Portugal being an authoritarian state (see below).

1) If Spain had entered the war on Germany's side, it is likely that Portugal would have gone in as well (there were actually Portuguese troops fighting in the Eastern Front, though I do not have much information on these).

2) Ever since the 1890 Ultimatum, which pertained directly to the British ambition of the Cairo to Cape railroad, Portuguese relations to GB were somewhat shaken. Portugal began to realize that the centuries old Alliance had more to do with our becoming a protectorate of the British than an independent state, particularly during the XIX Century. When WWI came about Portugal was really left with no choice - it would either side with the British and have the African Colonies invaded by Germany (which happened) or it would not side with anyone and the British would invade the colonies to "protect" them from the Germans. The new Portuguese republic chose to side with the Entente and sent 60.000 troops to France and c. 100.000 to the African Colonies. At the same time, support was cut from the Portuguese Expeditionary Force in France to appease all those government members in favour of the Central Powers.

3) The reasons for not entering the war were mainly related to Salazar's perceived weaknesses of the Portuguese Armed Forces, which underwent reorganization and modernization during WWII (to protect against probable Allied and German invasion). Salazar knew that Portuguese regular forces wouldn't stand a chance and so Portuguese diplomacy was conducted accordingly - "playing" with both sides - quite an exercise on Real Politik. At the same time, preparations were made for protracted guerrilla warfare, which would be hell for any invader, given the state of national communication routes and the ruggedness of terrain North of the Tagus river.

4) Even though a Right-Wing authoritarian regime, Portugal was not ruled by a military dictatorship and António de Oliveira Salazar was not a General, he was a professor at the University of Coimbra who first became Minister of Finances and, later Prime Minister.

5) Had Franco had the will to annex Portugal, he'd have done it. He actually wrote a paper (c. 1930) on how to take Lisbon in under 48 hours.

Nuno Castilho aka Rastamann

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Rastamann
Portugal began to realize that the centuries old Alliance had more to do with our becoming a protectorate of the British than an independent state,

Britain never really had any interest in major territorial possessions in Europe after about the 17th century. I think any Portugese fear of losing independence was really just paranoia. Britain was involved in Portugese politics in the 19th century, but this was with the aim of maintaining popular reformist rulers which the Holy Alliance were trying to replace with alternative, repressive rulers.

[Rastamann]

A protectorate isn't necessarily territorial control over someone. It can assume other forms.

Portugal was not afraid of losing its independence, and was well aware of Britain's policy towards Europe. The whole problem revolved around Britain's views of Africa. The German position (and Portuguese) at the Berlin conference was that the de facto occupation of territory should confer possession to a given Country. Portugal did occupy key positions from Mozambique to Angola and Britain would not have it, which was reason enough to issue the 1890 Ultimatum. Moreover, the British had armed the "zulu" nations of Southern Mozambique (Vatuas) and actually persuaded them to go against Portuguese troops.

Nuno Castilho aka Rastamann

[JMS]

Nuno, you have any information on the composition of the Portuguese Army in 1940? I have tried the Exercito site but the table with the regiments post-1937 is missing.

[Rastamann]

I have somewhere some information I sent Ben Turner a while ago, which I must find again. It basically states infantry division composition (in platoon sized units) and regiments that existed in mainland Portugal at the time.

I have e-mailed the army a few days ago regarding more accurate information on troop organization and deployments during WWII and they pointed out the National Army Library, in Lisbon. I still haven't had time to go there, but I will as soon as possible. If I have more information I will post it in this thread as an attachment.

If anyone else has information on Portuguese forces, please, by all means, post them.

Cheers

Nuno

[JMS]

Great! I am doing a scenario on a German invasion of the Iberian peninsula and that is the only information I am missing.

[Rastamann]

Have you looked for other scenarios that have dealt with the operation Felix?

Some that come to mind:
- Franco's Nightmare
- Operation Felix (I think that is the name, it's from Benny Wahlberg)

These two might give you a head start for TOE's

Cheers

Nuno

[JMS]

OOBs and TOEs are not much of a problem, only Portugal manages to slip out of the bag. All I have is 5 Military Regions/Divisions plus the Border troops (Caçadores).

[Rastamann]

You would have Military Regions - Centro, Norte, Lisboa, Alentejo and Algarve.

As for Caçadores, they were originally formed as light infantry during the Napoleonic Wars. they were again used as such during Portuguese Colonial wars (1961-74). I very much doubt they would be used as border troops. It would be more likely a function of the National Republican Guard, which was, at the time, some kind of rural police with a paramilitary organization.

Cheers

Nuno

[JMS]

This is what I have from the Exercito website:

"O Decreto 12.161, de 21 de Agosto de 1926, estabelecia a nova Organização das Armas e Serviços. No que às Armas dizia respeito, eram constituídas as seguintes unidades principais:

(Inserir quadro)

As duas Brigadas de Cavalaria (Elvas e Lisboa) e os 12 Batalhões de Caçadores (Portalegre, Tomar, Chaves, Faro, Lisboa, Penamacor, Valença, Elvas, Porto, Coimbra, Castelo Branco e Pinhel) constituíam as tropas de mais elevado estado de prontidão, sendo os efectivos de tempo de paz muito próximos dos de tempo de guerra.

Reorganização de 1937

- A organização das tropas, em tempo de paz, compreendia: as Unidades de Fronteira, verdadeiras unidades de campanha que possuíam os meios humanos e materiais para um imediato empenhamento em combate e de todo o material de mobilização; e as Unidades de Linha, compostas em parte por quadros e em parte por efectivos, cujo grau de prontidão se estimava num «reduzido número de dias».

- Era reforçada a presença de forças em torno de Lisboa, com base nos regimentos de Cavalaria e em outras tropas equivalentes a uma Divisão, com pelo menos metade dos efectivos imediatamente mobilizáveis.

- As Unidades de Linha deveriam agrupar-se em Grandes Unidades (4 Divisões), Tropas e Serviços de Exército e outras unidades e formações não endivisionadas. Cabia-lhes, além disso, ministrar a instrução geral de recrutas.

- Os regimentos de infantaria eram reduzidos de 22 para 16; nas restantes armas verificavam-se reduções de menor significado."

[Rastamann]

This indicates only that the 12 Caçadores battalions and 2 Cavalry brigades were the units with highest readiness in the portuguese army at the time.

Those that would bo considered border troops would be based at Portalegre, Chaves, Valença, Elvas, Castelo Branco e Pinhel, Vila Real de Santo António (also in Algarve but much closer to the border than Faro) Guarda and Bragança.

The four mentioned divisions would have their Headquarters based in Porto, Coimbra, Évora and Faro possibly, as these would be the equivalents of the Military Regions (respectively North, Centre, Alentejo and Algarve. The 16 Infantry Regiments would probably be stationed at the 16 continental district capital cities (which happens now, up to some measure) but this is a guess.

There was a fifth Division, in and around Lisbon. That would probably leave out one Infantry Regiment or the Lisbon Division would be reinforced.

I have a friend of mine in Lisbon which majored in History and offered to check out the Army Library. I am unable to go to Lisbon during weekdays for some time yet so I'll have to rely on her judgement

If you need any help with translations please drop me a line or many ;)

Regards

Nuno

[Rastamann]

JMS,

I noticed Ben already provided you with the TOE for Portuguese troops. This is what I found regarding armoured vehicles):

1931 - Vickers Light Tank Mk VI A and B
1931 - 15 Carden-Lloyd Mk VI (one squadron)
1942 - Bren Carrier Mk I (all cavalry units except RC4)
1943 - Valentine III
1943 - Humber Mk IV a/c

Cheers,

Nuno

[JMS]

Thanks a lot, Nuno. :)

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Rastamann
[B]JMS,

I noticed Ben already provided you with the TOE for Portuguese troops. This is what I found regarding armoured vehicles):

1931 - Vickers Light Tank Mk VI A and B

I think by this you must mean what TOAW calls Vickers 6 ton.

1931 - 15 Carden-Lloyd Mk VI (one squadron)

That many, huh?

Do you have details on the independent cavalry units?

[Rastamann]

Sorry about late answer, Ben. I have been out of this forum for quite a while.

No details on independent cavalry units (or any other Portuguese WWII-contemporary units , for that matter). I still haven't been able to drive all the way to Lisbon to the Army Library to search for it. I will post here if and when I get some information (even though it may be too late for your purposes by then :o)


And now, for something completely different: (it definitely was a great piece of britcom)
On your GS game - I have been giving a quick skim through the rules and, within my time limitations, will gladly give it a try if you're still interested.

Cheers

Nuno

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Rastamann
On your GS game - I have been giving a quick skim through the rules and, within my time limitations, will gladly give it a try if you're still interested.

Cheers

Nuno

Sure. We need a Portugal in GS1 as the former player dropped out and there are two damaged German capitol ships in the North Atlantic that need a friendly harbour.