Eastern Crusade ?

[Totenherr]

Hi,

Does the TO Eastern Crusade make any sense? If so when (turn)? How many turns is the TO active?

Thanks in advance for any comments or posts! :D

[Killorbekilled]

Hi,

Does the TO Eastern Crusade make any sense? If so when (turn)? How many turns is the TO active?

Thanks in advance for any comments or posts! :D

I think if France extends the Moginot it makes a lot of sense. As soon as the Maginot is activated the Crusade should be launched - the more time before the Sitz the better. If the Axis plays well they should be able to trash the Russians badly enough that they won't be able to sufficeintly re-fit during the Sitz...

(Note to designer: why is there a Stiz if the Eastern Crusade is launched? Wasn't the Sitz more of a Western thing?)

Also it kick starts the game and makes it more exciting. The traditional model is a slow start that can be a little boring for the Allied player...

[Totenherr]

Hi killorbekilled,

Thanks for the advice. I'm a relative newbie and still learning the ropes. Any helps is always appreciated! It's cool of you to answer! :smoke:

[Veers]

Has anyone decided to wait till after the sitz to begin an Eastern Crusade?

[Mantis]

I did.

My first ever attempt at the EC game saw me sit there and do nothing at all until spring. I can't recall if this was done with my opponents agreement, as I think the event structure might be such that it can't happen otherwise... Just can't recall offhand, it was a long time ago, and my opponent dropped the game on me when things started going badly for Russia.

[Veers]

I did.

My first ever attempt at the EC game saw me sit there an do nothing at all until spring. I can't recall if this was done with my opponents agreement, as I think the event structure might be such that it can't happen otherwise... Just can't recall offhand, it was a long time ago, and my opponent dropped the game on me when things started going badly for Russia.
It would seem that that would be the most prudent way to conduct an Eastern Crusade. Alternately, events could be put in place to cancel the Cease-Fire, should the Eastern Crusade option be excercised, eh?

[Mantis]

This is what I was thinking as well. With the extra events, couldn't we cancel the Sitz if the EC option was taken by the Axis? There *is* something to be said for waiting, however... If memory serves, there are several Panzers that show up just around spring?

Can anyone recall if the current event structure allows the Axis to sit still and do nothing until such time as they're ready?

[Totenherr]

I've got TOAWIII & during a EC game (against myself) the allies activated around turn 44 and had the TO to declare war on Germany. I'd extended the Maginot Line as France and as Germany declared war around turn 7. Didn't work. But then again my intellegence apparatus worked extremely well! :D

I like the idea Veers. :cool:

[Totenherr]

Oh ja, thanks for posting. :)

[Totenherr]

Have any of you ever took the option "Improve Siegfried Line"?

[Mantis]

Yes - most EC games are brought about by mutual agreement, and this is a good choice for the Jerries if they know an EC is brewing beforehand.

[Totenherr]

Thanks! Cool of you to post. I guess I just can't get the round system down pat as the Germans. Because they keep losing. :( But I'll get the hang of it eventually.

Thanks again for replying. :)

[Mantis]

Not a problem, please feel free to post with any questions you have, and we'll be happy to help as best we're able. (I really like it when this forum is busy. :laugh: )

Don't feel too badly about how you're doing so far. It does take quite awhile to get the hang of the combat round system, the most important thing is just to keep at it, and not be discouraged. There are many players here that are quite satisfied in getting 2 or 3 rounds out of a single turn.

What things are you finding the most difficult? Perhaps if you explained the situations that you are encountering, we can offer some specific advice. Try to describe what you are attempting to accomplish in a given turn, and what happens when you start combat.

[Totenherr]

Hmm.. cool... I'm playing EA against myself at this moment. I'd taken the pre-war builds (also Carriers) in turn one. France extended. Axis then built Siegfried Line. EC TO taken on turn 6 war started on 7. Massed the whole German Army in Rumania except for 4 Corp on the western front and 5 Corp for the Baltic front. The German objectives Kiev. The Rumanias is Odessa and then Dnepropetrov. The Poles will only defend. When I encircled the Soviet forts on the river Dneister near Uman. I attacked with a couple of Rumanian and the majority of the German Pre-war and Panzers (5 Panzer Corp). I attacked as single unit limited attack -- Min losses. It took 2 turns. Now of course the Soviets have seen where the punch is going to land and have taken the appropriate steps to counter it. The Central Reserves have shown up (in full). The Soviet OOB 2 is defending Kiev und the Soviet OOB 3 is defending the Dneiper river and Dnepropetrov. With about 7 Inf Armies in Strategic Reserve. I've been here before. Am I making Strategic planning mistakes or do I not understand the system. I know when planning attacks you see the Gold Round counter and that gives me a good idea about how much time it will take. I then only attack with the units that take as little time as possible. Then next round (if I get one) I attack with the same from the first round and some of the others, attempting to get as many rounds as possible in each turn. Is this correct? I hear about people using Art. to "Soften' up" a stack? how does this work?

Once again, thanks for the help! Nothing to do at work? :D

[Mantis]

Hmm.. cool... I'm playing EA against myself at this moment. I'd taken the pre-war builds (also Carriers) in turn one. France extended. Axis then built Siegfried Line. EC TO taken on turn 6 war started on 7. Massed the whole German Army in Rumania except for 4 Corp on the western front and 5 Corp for the Baltic front. The German objectives Kiev. The Rumanias is Odessa and then Dnepropetrov. The Poles will only defend.

A little advice to start - when you first hit Russia, hit them with everything. I'm not speaking about ignoring the West front, or having no reserves whatsoever, but I am talking about not having any units just sit still and defend. Not good.

To have a chance, the Axis player must cause some serious carnage to the Russians with the opening moves of Barbarossa. (How well you manage this will determine the rest of the war on the EF). You have a tremendous shock penalty, and you need to take advantage of it. You should certainly aim your blows, as you have described, but engage in limited offensives on the rest of the front as well. (Get those Poles marching!) Also - don't be afraid to split up some infantry corps (or use minor nation's units, etc) to give you the units you need to practice a little maneuver.

I just posted a more detailed reply on this same topic earlier today that should add to what I've mentioned here.

Link (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showpost.php?p=843509&postcount=48)

When I encircled the Soviet forts on the river Dneister near Uman. I attacked with a couple of Rumanian and the majority of the German Pre-war and Panzers (5 Panzer Corp).

Ok, here's a problem. Those forts can be a *very* tought nut to crack. And you're also losing valuable time by having all those lovely Panzers fighting a seriously strong defensive position. Maneuver! Send the tanks whizzing right past those strongpoints, and ignore them. Surround the forts instead with infantry (I would suggest using the minor nation's infantry divs for this). The lack of supply will see them wither on the vine - they'll be getting weaker every turn, and it won't cost you anything. If you feel you must hit them for some reason (you absolutely require the rail network?), then just make small probing attacks, not designed to outright take the spot, but to wear the defender down. He has no guns or butter, you do. Time is on your side. Also - using units to attack together that have limited cooperation (the flags for Germans units will be gold, but the flags for other nation's units might be silver, or even black) can cause your battle to take extra rounds to resolve. This isn't always a huge issue, but it can eat some of your turn.

I attacked as single unit limited attack -- Min losses. It took 2 turns. Now of course the Soviets have seen where the punch is going to land and have taken the appropriate steps to counter it. The Central Reserves have shown up (in full). The Soviet OOB 2 is defending Kiev und the Soviet OOB 3 is defending the Dneiper river and Dnepropetrov. With about 7 Inf Armies in Strategic Reserve. I've been here before. Am I making Strategic planning mistakes or do I not understand the system. I know when planning attacks you see the Gold Round counter and that gives me a good idea about how much time it will take. I then only attack with the units that take as little time as possible. Then next round (if I get one) I attack with the same from the first round and some of the others, attempting to get as many rounds as possible in each turn. Is this correct? I hear about people using Art. to "Soften' up" a stack? how does this work?

Once again, thanks for the help! Nothing to do at work? :D

No, I get quiet periods... :D Ok, I'll give you a more detailed answer tomorrow, but a big part of this is time. As mentioned in the other post I linked you to, your real job here is to outright destroy the Red Army, while eating as much terrain as is possible. Once an enemy is encircled, wipe him, or move past! If you know he can't get out, and you think it might be a tough fight to finish him, then let the infantry do their jobs, and maneuver onwards. You need to wipe his army, take all his land, or better still, both! Also keep in mind that even if the Reds might be able to push out of an encirclement, they likely will no longer be fortified, and you can just encircle him again, and wipe him out with ease.

And never forget about your paras and your bombers. I frequently leave not a single bridge standing when I'm advancing into Russia, and I drop paras with no hesitation if it will let me evap a few units that otherwise would just retreat.

I'll leave it there for now, and hopefully you'll have some more questions for us tomorrow when I get in!

[Totenherr]

Thanks 4 the advice. I'll try and be online 2morrow. :)

Thanks again.

[Mantis]

Always a pleasure; I'll see you then! (I could even meet you in chat or something if you'd like to fire a few questions in a more direct manner... Hmmm, maybe we could have a S&T chat).

[Totenherr]

What's an S&T chat? Never heard of that. I think I'm not aggressive enough as the Germans.

[Totenherr]

Let me guess, hmm... S&T = Strategy and Tatics. I'm learning! :) An S&T chat sounds good. Only problem is when? I live in Germany.

[Mantis]

Ok, I am here in the office for about another 7 hours or so, and can do it during that time, if you are interested! Let me know - others seems to want to participate as well.

[Mantis]

(And yes, S&T = Strategy & Tactics) :D

[Totenherr]

Sorry Mantis, I couldn'T get back to you. Death in the Family. :cry: Bummer.

In my EC game I'm trying to flank the Soviets near Dnepropetrov. It seems to be working. They're getting stretched pretty thin and their line will probably break in a turn or 2.

As the Soviets how could you stop this? Pull back to Stalingrad and Moscow? Does it make sense to just give up all that land?:eek:

[Mark Stevens]

The reinforcement schedule is set up so that the Soviets get a lot of extra units once the Russo-German War starts, in addition to the units shown on the Expected Reinforcement Schedule. They're spread out over roughly a year, initially (within a week or two) very low quality militia infantry, then getting steadily better, including Shock, Guards and artillery corps. Most appear on the eastern edge of the map, some on rail lines, some not. The early militia form up in the cities.

So there is an element of 'space for time' to be considered - you can definitely afford to fall back: Stalin's decision to immediately counter-attack in June 1941 was - with the benefit of hindsight - madness.

On the other hand, a lot of the on-map units are scheduled to reconstitute in the Soviet cities marked with a *, so losing them prevents the units reappearing. In addition there are are supply penalties for losing Stalingrad and Baku, and a Replacement loss for Moscow (losing Moscow + Stalingrad = Soviet surrender) so the Russians can't simply flee eastwards forever. The loss of Leningrad may cause Finland and Sweden to mobilise, if they haven't already, so that's another consideration. And the loss of Baku will persuade a neutral Turkey to enter on the side of the Axis.

Haven't answered your question, but a flexible Soviet defence, clinging on to the major cities without getting massively encircled, is the best bet.

And condolences on your loss.

[Totenherr]

The reinforcement schedule is set up so that the Soviets get a lot of extra units once the Russo-German War starts, in addition to the units shown on the Expected Reinforcement Schedule. They're spread out over roughly a year, initially (within a week or two) very low quality militia infantry, then getting steadily better, including Shock, Guards and artillery corps. Most appear on the eastern edge of the map, some on rail lines, some not. The early militia form up in the cities.

So there is an element of 'space for time' to be considered - you can definitely afford to fall back: Stalin's decision to immediately counter-attack in June 1941 was - with the benefit of hindsight - madness.

On the other hand, a lot of the on-map units are scheduled to reconstitute in the Soviet cities marked with a *, so losing them prevents the units reappearing. In addition there are are supply penalties for losing Stalingrad and Baku, and a Replacement loss for Moscow (losing Moscow + Stalingrad = Soviet surrender) so the Russians can't simply flee eastwards forever. The loss of Leningrad may cause Finland and Sweden to mobilise, if they haven't already, so that's another consideration. And the loss of Baku will persuade a neutral Turkey to enter on the side of the Axis.

Haven't answered your question, but a flexible Soviet defence, clinging on to the major cities without getting massively encircled, is the best bet.

And condolences on your loss.


Thanks for the advice. :cool:

And thanks for the condolences. Life can be a pain sometimes. :upset:

Oh, btw, great Scenario! Good job and thanks for your time and effort! Cool of you!

[Totenherr]

The "Sitzkreig" just ended. The Soviets are strong and received lots of reinforcements during the cease fire. From the Allies perspective it doesn't look that bad. If Russia can hold just one more year.... The Germans are rested and quite well supplied. I'm assuming that around turn 45 the French and British are going to get involved. Germany sould be able to deal with this, without draining the eastern front.

The Soviets have a Fortified line running along the river Dneiper. The Axis have taken Dnepropetrov. I'm gonna try and flank Russia's southern flank. If it fails my Pre-War builds could be in a precarious situation. I would like to encircle Kiev but I think I'm to weak. It's turn 36 (March '40). The Soviets have 1 Mech Cps, 8 Inf Hvy Wep Cps and 1 Inf Cps in Kursk as Strategic Reserve. Should I continue trying to encircle Kiev (and destroy a chunk of Russia's Army) or should I make a run for Stalingrad or Moscow?

Thanks again for your advice.

[Mantis]

If you do not feel that Moscow is within your (virtually immediate) grasp, then wipe out his units. If you don't q-u-i-t-e take Moscow, all those units are there to hassle your offensives. Perhaps if you do wipe them all out, it might lead to your future capture of Moscow. I know it's something of a personal preference, but I really like to empty my opponents OOB...

:laugh:

[Totenherr]

I've got TOAWIII (3.4c) and it seems, as Mark stated, that after the start of the Russo-German war the Soviets receive a lot of reinforcements that are not expected. Due to that fact I agree with Veers that an EC should wait until at least Spring '40. The Axis Player just isn't strong enough in '39. Especially with those reinforcements.

The question is can the Axis wait? How long is the TO available?

I also agree with Mantis. In order to win an EC that starts in '39 (or any EA game), you need to be very aggressive. I believe that I'm just to cautious with the Axis.

I'm gonna keep trying though! Maybe someday, I'll learn! :D

And thanks everyone for posting! Cool, friendly people here! :smoke:

[Veers]

The Axis Player just isn't strong enough in '39. Especially with those reinforcements.

How true, eh Mark? :devious:

[Mark Stevens]

Not over until the fat lady &etc.

(Insert fat lady singing icon, but we only appear to have a banana)

[Mantis]

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/music/musik33.gif

Sorry, can't resist things like that... :D

[Mark Stevens]

I've got TOAWIII (3.4c) and it seems, as Mark stated, that after the start of the Russo-German war the Soviets receive a lot of reinforcements that are not expected. Due to that fact I agree with Veers that an EC should wait until at least Spring '40. The Axis Player just isn't strong enough in '39. Especially with those reinforcements.

The question is can the Axis wait? How long is the TO available?



From the Full Briefing - if you're interested in this scenario it is worth wading through it:

"The USSR under Stalin was an aggressive, expansionary state. Unlike in many similar WWII games, don't expect the Russians to annex parts of Eastern Europe and then sit around waiting to be attacked by Germany. The Allied player may choose to initiate a Russo-German War (a) about a month after the Germans invade the UK (b) if the Axis invade Turkey and pass within six hexes of Ankara (75% chance) or (c) some time between turns 110 - 150 (i.e. starting from August 1941) if the Germans haven't launched their own offensive - and the later they leave it, the better prepared the Soviets will be"

The 'better prepared' bit is that not all Soviet (or German) reinforcements are tied to the Russo-German War - there are also some which appear over time, more Soviets than Germans. It's also important to note that, if the USSR does declare war on Germany, the latter will get a line of weakish forts running through the centre of Poland, plus a few blocking the main roads west into Rumania and Hungary, and five and three extra infantry and panzer corps respectively that wouldn't normally appear in the game. Whether the Germans or Russians declare war, this starts the Event-related reinforcement schedule ticking.

[Veers]

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/music/musik33.gif

Sorry, can't resist things like that... :D

:laugh: :laugh: