View Full Version : French Late War Tanks
Mark,
Do you think that, with the BioEd compatibility now offered for T3, you will take the time to 'create' late war French tanks instead of just having them use up Soviet/American equipment?
EDIT: And, perhaps, correct some of the most glarring 'errors' of the database..ie the M4A1 Sherman/76mm? (Since, I imagine you don't have the time to re-write the entire scenario to use Panzer-War's WWII .eqp. :laugh:)
Mark,
Do you think that, with the BioEd compatibility now offered for T3, you will take the time to 'create' late war French tanks instead of just having them use up Soviet/American equipment?
EDIT: And, perhaps, correct some of the most glarring 'errors' of the database..ie the M4A1 Sherman/76mm? (Since, I imagine you don't have the time to re-write the entire scenario to use Panzer-War's WWII .eqp. :laugh:)
Which are those late war tanks ?
Der WanderCuriousAboutThoseTanks
_________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round two results available soon
Maybe improved versions of those already in service (B1, S 35, H 39 and the like) or production versions of the prototypes that never made it to the units: AMX 40 (http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/amx40-1940.htm), ARL 40 (http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/arl_40.htm) or ARL 44 (http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/arl44.htm) for instance.
That said, given that France is knocked out of the war quite early, I don't see it having the industrial base needed to produce these prototypes and it'll have to rely on British and U.S. equipment like it did historically.
Maybe improved versions of those already in service (B1, S 35, H 39 and the like) or production versions of the prototypes that never made it to the units: AMX 40 (http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/amx40-1940.htm), ARL 40 (http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/arl_40.htm) or ARL 44 (http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/arl44.htm) for instance.
That said, given that France is knocked out of the war quite early, I don't see it having the industrial base needed to produce these prototypes and it'll have to rely on British and U.S. equipment like it did historically.
For ARL 44 it was essentialy a propaganda action to demonstrate we were still able to design tanks. It is true that until AMX 30 all french tanks were US made one.
For 1940-41 period, it is for sure that we have had the capacity to produce up todate tanks to face German ones, and as Lt Col Karl Heinz Frieser wrote it in his book " The myth of Blitzkrieg", German were aware that if they did not knock out French and British quickly they won't stand the industrial power of both France and United Kingdom and then loose the war.
In this matter the Von Manstein Guderian idea of a breakthrough at Sedan was the right action at the right place, seconded by the 3 most stupid actions realized by 3 French Generals
1) Gnl Lafontaine who spent 15 hours to execute the counter attack order at Gembloux, on the 13/14 may, he was waiting for written orders that he received by phone !!!
2) Gnl Huntzinger who order the DINA to move back to the Inor area leaving a wide hole in French defense (10 to 20 km), he was affraid to offer his flank to german attack
3) Gnl De Flavigny who stopped the 3rd DCR and 3rd DIM counter attack at Stonne on the 14/15 may, then wide spreading his tanks on the front line
Der Wander_G1_AMX38_S40_AMX45
_______________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round two results available soon
Taking about if the French are not knocked out in '40, boys. (Like may happen in my current game against Mark :devious:)
Of course, if they are, then the Free French would not need to be changed.
Taking about if the French are not knocked out in '40, boys. (Like may happen in my current game against Mark :devious:)
Of course, if they are, then the Free French would not need to be changed.
Yeah - then it could make sense indeed to have the French continue their tank development into 1941 and later if need be.
My point was that in EA it's almost a postulate that the French are out early :smoke:
Yeah - then it could make sense indeed to have the French continue their tank development into 1941 and later if need be.
My point was that in EA it's almost a postulate that the French are out early :smoke:
Well, the exception being Eastern Crusade games. How many of which happen, I don't know, but they do happen. The point would really only be for chrome, but chrome is the stuff games run on. :D
Ditto about the Eastern Crusade games - had forgotten about those. And yes, chrome is to be taken seriously ;)
Agreed! :D
As a side note, only once have I managed to keep France alive in a non-EC game, and that was when Triaxe was still learning the ropes, so I knew straight away that if we restarted, theres was no chance I could repeat the performance.
Mark, you never wheighed in on this. Any thoughts?
Mark Stevens
23 Apr 07, 20:23
As you'll have noticed from my chubby icon, 'weigh in' is about right.
It's only really relevant if the French survive, Eastern Crusade or not - in that case, starting with turn 70, they'll gradually get an extra (strong):
3 fighter units
2 bomber units
2 HQs
5 armoured corps
2 motorised corps
3 mechanised corps
1 airlanding division
1 artillery corps
(all of which reconstitute)
In addition, if the Germans attack in the West and play the 'Case Yellow' bonus, the French will get (admittedly starting as very weak):
4 motorised corps
2 anti-tank brigades
3 armoured divisions
Finally, it's worth noting that there are slots in the starting French units (OK, not the fortress units or colonials) for additional tanks and armoured cars, so they'll gradually get stronger - the idea being that they're retaining armour as an integral component of the infantry corps and divisions, not just concentrating it.
All these units use a mixture of French, US and some Russian tanks (and armoured cars), which does mean that there'll be less for the genuine US and Soviet units, although production of the French equipment carries on past the historical surrender date, so there will always be some kit to fill the slots.
The effect of this will be that, if the French survive past their historical surrender date, the army will gradually get stronger overall, with an increasing number of motorised, armoured and mechanised units in particular. I think this is adequate in a scenario of this scale. To widdle round with the BioEditor coming up with some imaginary mid-war French tank designs just doesn't seem worthwhile.
As I never tire of saying, although some may well of hearing it, this is very much a 'big picture' scenario. It's impossible to adequately cover what might have happened to, say, German tank design had the Russo-German war started earlier - or later - than it did, or if they'd seized the Caucasus oilfields or whatever, let alone what might have happened had a major power like France not surrendered when it did.
You did ask...
To widdle round with the BioEditor coming up with some imaginary mid-war French tank designs just doesn't seem worthwhile.
Well, what if someone else felt it worthwhile to do this? Would you consider entertaining the option then?
It would be easy for a discussion to happen about what these late war tanks would be called and what stats they would have (possibly very similar to the T-34s and Shermans, if one wanted). It would then be pretty easy to go into BioEd and create those units and it would then be pretty easy to swap out the Shermans/T-34s for Late War French tanks, and it would then be very easy to stop B1 production at X turn and begin Late War tank production at X+1 turn. :D
EDIT: As an aside: I certainly doon't want to be pushy, I just want to facilitate options, if your main reason for not wanting to implement these options is alack of time.
I fall somewhere in the middle in of all this.
Most grogs came to be such by having a love of military history, which then translated into gaming. I was the reverse - I was a hardcore gamer which translated into a love of military history. While I have nothing against complete historical accuracy (or as much of such as can be realistically implemented - especially if someone else is doing the work! :) ), that's not the bread and butter for me.
As a WWII designer myself, (and faced with a partner that is *totally* about historical accuracy), my forte has always been game balance. I hear what Mark says about the 'big picture', and am totally in-line with that viewpoint. I'd rather have something that 'works', but gets there through (historically unrealistic) workarounds, than something that is perfectly accurate historically, but is broken.
How a game plays is infinately more important to me than what's under the hood. :D
That said, however, could there be much harm in at least seeing how the changes would compare?
I am always massively hesitant to see anything incorporated that could present a radical shift in the play balance. If you add 10% more realism, but FUBAR game balance by an equal measure, the change is not worth it. Yet as mentioned, the French almost never survive to such a point, so there is no real 'feel' to it that players are familiar with which could be ruined. And all this is (ahistorical) conjecture anyways, so there really isn't much to break.
I fall somewhere in the middle in of all this.
Most grogs came to be such by having a love of military history, which then translated into gaming. I was the reverse - I was a hardcore gamer which translated into a love of military history. While I have nothing against complete historical accuracy (or as much of such as can be realistically implemented - especially if someone else is doing the work! :) ), that's not the bread and butter for me.
As a WWII designer myself, (and faced with a partner that is *totally* about historical accuracy), my forte has always been game balance. I hear what Mark says about the 'big picture', and am totally in-line with that viewpoint. I'd rather have something that 'works', but gets there through (historically unrealistic) workarounds, than something that is perfectly accurate historically, but is broken.
How a game plays is infinately more important to me than what's under the hood. :D
That said, however, could there be much harm in at least seeing how the changes would compare?
I am always massively hesitant to see anything incorporated that could present a radical shift in the play balance. If you add 10% more realism, but FUBAR game balance by an equal measure, the change is not worth it. Yet as mentioned, the French almost never survive to such a point, so there is no real 'feel' to it that players are familiar with which could be ruined. And all this is (ahistorical) conjecture anyways, so there really isn't much to break.
There would be only two changes.
A) The stats would be slightly different for these late war French tanks (unless we used the same stats as the T-34s and Shermans that currently occupy their eq slots)
B) There would be a few hundred tanks that would stay with the Allies, instead of being soaked up by the French, which would normally stay with the Allies anyways, because the French would be dead.
I don't forsee a major balance issue (in fact I don't forsee a minor balance issue, either :laugh:).
Here is little French voice speaking
In may 40, France was under the process of a great change but this change was set to be closed in summer 40.
The final goal was to stay in defensive mode until 1941, were both UK and French GHQ were defining the watershed of the defensive mode.
Looking at the origin of this thread, the 1940 and latter tanks were under design of beginig of production.
For H39/H35 and R35, the initial guns 37R18 would have to be replaced with the far more powerfull 37R38, the R40 was entering the production
and more than all the radio (phonic not graphic) were defined to enter in tanks. The AMX 40 with a 2 men turret was under preparation. Not speaking of the B1ter of the G1 which is at the origin of the US Sherman. see here De 1930 à 1940 (http://www.chars-francais.net/de1930a1940.htm)
Most of armoured units were under constitution or training process, many reservist who inegrated those units were full of bravery but were lacking so much of training. It did not stop them to run toward the enemy but at which cost !!
We already have this discussion with my French friends as Nemo, for me the may 40 collapse could have been avoided or the defeat could have occurred more latter than june 40. Main problem was related to two of our generals who have missed twice the occasions 1st to close the Sedan gap, second to slow down the German advance, permitting so to avoid the best allies units to be trapped in Flanders. The numbers of Division defending the Weygand line would have been greater and more than this we would have the necessary reserve forces to stop the German breakthrough of the line.
At last do not forget that the French air force ended the war with far more modern planes than at the beginning of the war.
If we think WHAT IF, if the May 40 campaign saw he German a little bit more delayed, I think the French collapse as harsh it was, would not have occurred.
French defeat may be but in a political point of view I'm certain that the French government less shaked would have moved to London or to Algiers to continue the fight, and that many French soldiers would have stay in UK or joined the French North Africe to continue the fight with the Brits.
French fleet was intact, many modern planes were in north africa. This would have made German assault against French north africa far more hasardous.
I stop there but I have to admit that the Guderian/Von Manstein couple did a great job there, and with their action the French army had very few chances to survive, as they hited French army at its worst time frame, when it was under a great change process. would that attack occurred in September we would not heard the same music
Der WanderWithManyIfWeMayPutParisInABottle
___________________________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
Here is little French voice speaking
In may 40, France was under the process of a great change but this change was set to be closed in summer 40.
The final goal was to stay in defensive mode until 1941, were both UK and French GHQ were defining the watershed of the defensive mode.
Looking at the origin of this thread, the 1940 and latter tanks were under design of beginig of production.
For H39/H35 and R35, the initial guns 37R18 would have to be replaced with the far more powerfull 37R38, the R40 was entering the production
and more than all the radio (phonic not graphic) were defined to enter in tanks. The AMX 40 with a 2 men turret was under preparation. Not speaking of the B1ter of the G1 which is at the origin of the US Sherman. see here De 1930 à 1940 (http://www.chars-francais.net/de1930a1940.htm)
Most of armoured units were under constitution or training process, many reservist who inegrated those units were full of bravery but were lacking so much of training. It did not stop them to run toward the enemy but at which cost !!
We already have this discussion with my French friends as Nemo, for me the may 40 collapse could have been avoided or the defeat could have occurred more latter than june 40. Main problem was related to two of our generals who have missed twice the occasions 1st to close the Sedan gap, second to slow down the German advance, permitting so to avoid the best allies units to be trapped in Flanders. The numbers of Division defending the Weygand line would have been greater and more than this we would have the necessary reserve forces to stop the German breakthrough of the line.
At last do not forget that the French air force ended the war with far more modern planes than at the beginning of the war.
If we think WHAT IF, if the May 40 campaign saw he German a little bit more delayed, I think the French collapse as harsh it was, would not have occurred.
French defeat may be but in a political point of view I'm certain that the French government less shaked would have moved to London or to Algiers to continue the fight, and that many French soldiers would have stay in UK or joined the French North Africe to continue the fight with the Brits.
French fleet was intact, many modern planes were in north africa. This would have made German assault against French north africa far more hasardous.
I stop there but I have to admit that the Guderian/Von Manstein couple did a great job there, and with their action the French army had very few chances to survive, as they hited French army at its worst time frame, when it was under a great change process. would that attack occurred in September we would not heard the same music
I'm not sure about what everyone thinks, but I wouldn't want to mess with the balance regarding French forces during a standard type '40 attack. I think it works fine as it is now.
However, the site you provided does give good information on what the French were developing at the time of their defeat.
I particularly liked the AMX 40 and FCM F1.
Heh, looking at the FCM F1, can you imagine facing that behemoth? :surprise:
Mark Stevens
24 Apr 07, 17:23
Straying boldly from the topic of hypothetical late war French tanks, at the moment we have the capture of Paris triggering total French surrender, with Vichy units being deployed, and small numbers of Free French joining the Allied OOB later in the war (if the UK isn't overrun), i.e. broadly what happened. There's a Theatre Option for the Axis to trigger Spain as a full satellite by ceding the French North African territories which, in turn, causes Vichy to revert back to the Allies as the 'Admiral Darlan' formation.
The British, and a small number of French politicians, wanted France to continue the fight in 1940, but the majority stuck with Petain.
How about a 'France fights on' Theatre Option for the Allies, available for one turn only immediately following the loss of Paris? This would:
still disband the starting French army
permanently remove the Vichy formations from play
remove the Free French formation from play
immediately deploy the Admiral Darlan formation (I think we'd need to make it reconstitutable in, say, Algiers)
activate Spain as an Axis satellite
i.e. the net effect would be the same as if the Axis player uses the mobilise Spain Theatre Option, with the loss of the Free French formation, but at the Allies' option. If not immediately taken the TO would be cancelled the following turn.
Would that be an interesting/realistic Option to include? I don't much like TOs that just allow one side to do something unhistorical without any penalty, but this would sort of simulate the French fighting on from the colonies, with a few metropolitan French units also refusing to surrender. There would be advantages and disadvantages for both sides. There are slots in the Admiral Darlan formation for mainly US equipment, which would make it stronger over time, if it survived.
Welcome any thoughts.
Straying boldly from the topic of hypothetical late war French tanks, at the moment we have the capture of Paris triggering total French surrender, with Vichy units being deployed, and small numbers of Free French joining the Allied OOB later in the war (if the UK isn't overrun), i.e. broadly what happened. There's a Theatre Option for the Axis to trigger Spain as a full satellite by ceding the French North African territories which, in turn, causes Vichy to revert back to the Allies as the 'Admiral Darlan' formation.
The British, and a small number of French politicians, wanted France to continue the fight in 1940, but the majority stuck with Petain.
How about a 'France fights on' Theatre Option for the Allies, available for one turn only immediately following the loss of Paris? This would:
still disband the starting French army
permanently remove the Vichy formations from play
remove the Free French formation from play
immediately deploy the Admiral Darlan formation (I think we'd need to make it reconstitutable in, say, Algiers)
activate Spain as an Axis satellite
i.e. the net effect would be the same as if the Axis player uses the mobilise Spain Theatre Option, with the loss of the Free French formation, but at the Allies' option. If not immediately taken the TO would be cancelled the following turn.
Would that be an interesting/realistic Option to include? I don't much like TOs that just allow one side to do something unhistorical without any penalty, but this would sort of simulate the French fighting on from the colonies, with a few metropolitan French units also refusing to surrender. There would be advantages and disadvantages for both sides. There are slots in the Admiral Darlan formation for mainly US equipment, which would make it stronger over time, if it survived.
Welcome any thoughts.
Love it.
Questions:
1) Would these units be beefed up slightly form what they are now, in this event? Right now you're looking at the Axis getting 10 (mostly good) Inf Corps, 1 Armoured Corps, 1 Mech Corps, and 4 Divisions (1 Divisions sized Corps and 3 Mot Divisions), while the Allied would get 4 (crappy) Corps and 8 (Basic) Inf Divisions. Working out to, about the equivelant of Axis: 10 1/3 Inf , 1 Arm, 1 Mech, and 1 Mot Corps vesus Allied: 5 1/3 (Good) Inf Corps (Also, four of these (crappy) Corps are located in France, and may not even get away...).
Perhaps replace the Free French with their equivelant in the 'Admiral Darlan' formation? After all, because the French fight on, doesn't mean those units that would have become 'Free French' would all of a sudden surrender, no, they'd join the 'French that continue to fight on'. :laugh:
Easy way to do it would just have the swaped 'Free French' troops in the Admiral Darlan formation deploy on exactly the same timescale they deploy at now.
2) How would Portugal react? If they automatically declare war, you might as well write them off, likewise, if they do not automatically declare war, you may as well write them off, :laugh: as the Germans will surely follow up France with the invasion of Portugal, should the French 'fight on'. However, it could be worth it if more than just the Admiral Darlan units are deployed.
3) You still haven't weighed in on 'French Late War Tanks', though I'm glad you brought up this new subject. :D
4) As for realism/plausibility, well, you'll have to ask someone else. :D
5) Points to ponder:
(a)The Spanish are already present in North Africa. The chance of the French successfully holding onto French North Africa would be, in my opinion, slim. Their utility may lie in transporting them to Egypt, for use later.
(b) You're also virtually giving up Gibraltar (Maybe?) I don't have much experience with the Spanish being activated (only once, they were on my side, and I took Gibraltar).
6) How would it affect the USEV, or would it at all?
Mark Stevens
24 Apr 07, 20:51
Love it.
Questions:
1) Would these units be beefed up slightly form what they are now, in this event? Right now you're looking at the Axis getting 10 (mostly good) Inf Corps, 1 Armoured Corps, 1 Mech Corps, and 4 Divisions (1 Divisions sized Corps and 3 Mot Divisions), while the Allied would get 4 (crappy) Corps and 8 (Basic) Inf Divisions. Working out to, about the equivelant of Axis: 10 1/3 Inf , 1 Arm, 1 Mech, and 1 Mot Corps vesus Allied: 5 1/3 (Good) Inf Corps (Also, four of these (crappy) Corps are located in France, and may not even get away...).
Perhaps replace the Free French with their equivelant in the 'Admiral Darlan' formation? After all, because the French fight on, doesn't mean those units that would have become 'Free French' would all of a sudden surrender, no, they'd join the 'French that continue to fight on'. :laugh:
Easy way to do it would just have the swaped 'Free French' troops in the Admiral Darlan formation deploy on exactly the same timescale they deploy at now.
You could argue that the 'Free French' are the men who do choose to fight on in 1940 (or whenever the rest of France surrenders), i.e. they are the Admiral Darlan formation. If they need beefing it to make it a genuine choice, I wonder whether colouring the existing French colonial troops (whether in metropolitan France or overseas), and maybe the navies, differently from the main army would work? I'd need an extra 'Withdraw Army' Event if France did surrender as normal, but not if the Allies go for 'France fights on'. That means that any that escaped the fighting in mainland France, or stayed in or moved to the colonies in time, would survive. It would also discourage the unrealistic shipping to France of the entire colonial garrisons to buy a few more turns or cause a few more German casualties. I count 32 units that would qualify, mainly infantry divisions, but with a few HQs, corps, light cavalry and garrisons. Those that survived combined with the Admiral Darlan formation would give the French government in exile a bit more clout.
2) How would Portugal react? If they automatically declare war, you might as well write them off, likewise, if they do not automatically declare war, you may as well write them off, :laugh: as the Germans will surely follow up France with the invasion of Portugal, should the French 'fight on'. However, it could be worth it if more than just the Admiral Darlan units are deployed.
One of Franco's aims was to incorporate Portugal, or at least to dominate it. If the Spanish are invading there, perhaps with the British or surviving French having reinforced Portugal, they aren't going to be overrunning French North Africa at the same time.
3) You still haven't weighed in on 'French Late War Tanks', though I'm glad you brought up this new subject. :D
Don't think it's worth it - existing spare slots for British/Soviet/US equipment do the job adequately
4) As for realism/plausibility, well, you'll have to ask someone else. :D
I don't want the Allies declaring this TO to be an every game no-brainer: after all, it didn't happen. If it leads to Spain and Italy overunning North Africa and Portugal, and the German the whole of France and Gibraltar, then maybe that's what would have happened. The Allied player should definitely be made to think very hard before casually pressing the TO. If we made this change, and it's chosen every time, then it would be a failure.
5) Points to ponder:
(a)The Spanish are already present in North Africa. The chance of the French successfully holding onto French North Africa would be, in my opinion, slim. Their utility may lie in transporting them to Egypt, for use later.
(b) You're also virtually giving up Gibraltar (Maybe?) I don't have much experience with the Spanish being activated (only once, they were on my side, and I took Gibraltar).
Having pondered...maybe a beefed up French army (as above) could hold on with British support against the Spanish and Italians? I'm not suggesting removing the restriction on transporting German units to North Africa: I'd keep the limitation to the sandy coloured units. But, even if the Spanish weren't up to it, or were busy elsewhere, a few German corps and an engineer probably would be able to move via Spain against Gibraltar - perhaps another good reason for the Allies to accept the 'normal' French surrender and keep Spain neutral? Although, if the French could retain Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, Gibraltar wouldn't be quite so vitally important for transporting troops to the Desert Campaign.
6) How would it affect the USEV, or would it at all?
If anything - haven't thought this through - reduce it, as Roosevelt would find it harder to persuade Congress that Europe needed 'saving' if the British AND French were still in arms?
Questions:
1) Would these units be beefed up slightly form what they are now, in this event? Right now you're looking at the Axis getting 10 (mostly good) Inf Corps, 1 Armoured Corps, 1 Mech Corps, and 4 Divisions (1 Divisions sized Corps and 3 Mot Divisions), while the Allied would get 4 (crappy) Corps and 8 (Basic) Inf Divisions. Working out to, about the equivelant of Axis: 10 1/3 Inf , 1 Arm, 1 Mech, and 1 Mot Corps vesus Allied: 5 1/3 (Good) Inf Corps (Also, four of these (crappy) Corps are located in France, and may not even get away...).
Perhaps replace the Free French with their equivelant in the 'Admiral Darlan' formation? After all, because the French fight on, doesn't mean those units that would have become 'Free French' would all of a sudden surrender, no, they'd join the 'French that continue to fight on'.
Easy way to do it would just have the swaped 'Free French' troops in the Admiral Darlan formation deploy on exactly the same timescale they deploy at now.
You could argue that the 'Free French' are the men who do choose to fight on in 1940 (or whenever the rest of France surrenders), i.e. they are the Admiral Darlan formation. If they need beefing it to make it a genuine choice, I wonder whether colouring the existing French colonial troops (whether in metropolitan France or overseas), and maybe the navies, differently from the main army would work? I'd need an extra 'Withdraw Army' Event if France did surrender as normal, but not if the Allies go for 'France fights on'. That means that any that escaped the fighting in mainland France, or stayed in or moved to the colonies in time, would survive. It would also discourage the unrealistic shipping to France of the entire colonial garrisons to buy a few more turns or cause a few more German casualties. I count 32 units that would qualify, mainly infantry divisions, but with a few HQs, corps, light cavalry and garrisons. Those that survived combined with the Admiral Darlan formation would give the French government in exile a bit more clout.
Something to that effect sounds good.
2) How would Portugal react? If they automatically declare war, you might as well write them off, likewise, if they do not automatically declare war, you may as well write them off, as the Germans will surely follow up France with the invasion of Portugal, should the French 'fight on'. However, it could be worth it if more than just the Admiral Darlan units are deployed.
One of Franco's aims was to incorporate Portugal, or at least to dominate it. If the Spanish are invading there, perhaps with the British or surviving French having reinforced Portugal, they aren't going to be overrunning French North Africa at the same time.
Right'o. Would we need to adjust the TOs? Currently if Spain joins, the Portugese join right away. Would we still want that, or would we want to give the Axis player the ability to time his attack?
3) You still haven't weighed in on 'French Late War Tanks', though I'm glad you brought up this new subject.
Don't think it's worth it - existing spare slots for British/Soviet/US equipment do the job adequately
I suppose... :argh: :laugh:
4) As for realism/plausibility, well, you'll have to ask someone else.
I don't want the Allies declaring this TO to be an every game no-brainer: after all, it didn't happen. If it leads to Spain and Italy overunning North Africa and Portugal, and the German the whole of France and Gibraltar, then maybe that's what would have happened. The Allied player should definitely be made to think very hard before casually pressing the TO. If we made this change, and it's chosen every time, then it would be a failure.
Agreed.
5) Points to ponder:
(a)The Spanish are already present in North Africa. The chance of the French successfully holding onto French North Africa would be, in my opinion, slim. Their utility may lie in transporting them to Egypt, for use later.
(b) You're also virtually giving up Gibraltar (Maybe?) I don't have much experience with the Spanish being activated (only once, they were on my side, and I took Gibraltar).
Having pondered...maybe a beefed up French army (as above) could hold on with British support against the Spanish and Italians?
It might be able to, only playtesting will tell!!!! :horse:
I'm not suggesting removing the restriction on transporting German units to North Africa: I'd keep the limitation to the sandy coloured units.
Agreed. Wouldn't have suggested otherwise.
But, even if the Spanish weren't up to it, or were busy elsewhere, a few German corps and an engineer probably would be able to move via Spain against Gibraltar - perhaps another good reason for the Allies to accept the 'normal' French surrender and keep Spain neutral? Although, if the French could retain Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, Gibraltar wouldn't be quite so vitally important for transporting troops to the Desert Campaign.
Right. And that will be the qeustion everytime. HEHEHEHEHE.
6) How would it affect the USEV, or would it at all?
If anything - haven't thought this through - reduce it, as Roosevelt would find it harder to persuade Congress that Europe needed 'saving' if the British AND French were still in arms?
Could be. Might be worth looking into how the US felt about Vichy France. Wether they would have been more angry at the Axis if it didn't look so much like the French and Germans now got along.
Bloodstar
25 Apr 07, 08:36
After the fall of France a number of S35s (297 according to some sources) were taken into service with the Wehrmacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht) as the PzKpfw 35-S 739(f). The Germans fitted a cupola with a hatch. Some of these were later delivered to Italy. Others were allowed to be sent to West Africa to bolster the hold of the Vichy regime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_regime) on that region. Eventually, these tanks saw action against German and Italian forces during the Tunisia Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia_Campaign).
This is interesting... As I am playing Theatre of War and there you can really admire of the beauty of French tank design, I recommend this game to all that like good tank models. I was watching H35 how it moves for ten minutes. It was Dunkirk scenario in the game. H35 squashed a soldier that I sent to recce and then slowly moved forward, I ordered 3 Panzer 38t to shoot at it's tutrret but nothing and he even slowly witdraw hehe...
I didn't know that German allowed Vichy France to send tanks to Dakar. Well, Churchill really know how to turn French to not like UK with attacking their fleets at Oran etc...
But anyway French tanks of WW2 looks really interesting for research. Germans used them in Finland and on lot's of other places (Normandy I think.).
Mario
What if the 'French Fight On' bit was triggered by an event with X% chance of firing, instead of being a TO?
After the fall of France a number of S35s (297 according to some sources) were taken into service with the Wehrmacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht) as the PzKpfw 35-S 739(f). The Germans fitted a cupola with a hatch. Some of these were later delivered to Italy. Others were allowed to be sent to West Africa to bolster the hold of the Vichy regime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_regime) on that region. Eventually, these tanks saw action against German and Italian forces during the Tunisia Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia_Campaign).
This is interesting... As I am playing Theatre of War and there you can really admire of the beauty of French tank design, I recommend this game to all that like good tank models. I was watching H35 how it moves for ten minutes. It was Dunkirk scenario in the game. H35 squashed a soldier that I sent to recce and then slowly moved forward, I ordered 3 Panzer 38t to shoot at it's tutrret but nothing and he even slowly witdraw hehe...
I didn't know that German allowed Vichy France to send tanks to Dakar. Well, Churchill really know how to turn French to not like UK with attacking their fleets at Oran etc...
But anyway French tanks of WW2 looks really interesting for research. Germans used them in Finland and on lot's of other places (Normandy I think.).
Mario
French made tanks used in Tunisia campain against Germans and Italians by French 19 Army Corps
23 S35
40 D1 tanks
70 mix of R35 and H35
a great number of armoured cars
Der WanderViveLaCavalerie
______________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
French made tanks used in Tunisia campain against Germans and Italians by French 19 Army Corps
23 S35
40 D1 tanks
70 mix of R35 and H35
a great number of armoured cars
Der WanderViveLaCavalerie
______________________
The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a ███ WHQ/SZO/XG® product since 01/2003
The Birth of European Army Tournament round one and two 1st results have look here (http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/wfhq-ld-tourney-details.php?id=63#rounds)
Alright, you tank buffs. Did the French continue to produce French or German designed tanks during the war? And in what quantity?
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.