View Full Version : Panzers (and panthers and tigers, oh my!)
Question.
In my game with Francis, he is perfecting the art of death-from-above on my Axis troops. As some of you may recall from previous threads, this is an Eastern Crusade game, and Russia and France were both dead prior to summer '41. (Can't recall exactly when, I didn't bring all the backup saves to work). The short of it is that the Axis fought fast and furious for the first 60 turns or so, but things have been quite slow for the Jerries as we sit back and patiently wait for an Overlord attempt. We're now on turn 152 (May 24, 1942).
What prompted me to post is this:
As mentioned above, the Axis really went at it early, but things have been quiet for pretty much the better part of two years. I have been spending the time taking over all the remaining Allied bastions that are catching my eye. (Switzerland, all of North Africa including advancing/repairing down that dreadful-terrain rail line that heads to Ethiopia, which means yes, I took that too... Also Madagascar, Greece (but not Yugo), Belgium joined me when Francis dropped a DoW on it; Turkey (Baku), etc.
Francis has been busy as well. He pulled off a brilliant raid on Algiers that forced a Vichy surrender, and landed at Casablanca at the same time, effectively screwing me. His advance on Tunis was valiantly fought off by the tiny forces I could assemble (hard to reinforce with only 1000 sea transport). Unfortuantely for the Allies, the successes were also the seeds of their undoing. The loss of Vichy prompted me to activate Spain, which gave me Gibraltar eventually, which raised the sea transport to 6000, which spelled the end of Allied Africa.
I've been advancing south down the crazy road that leads from western Africa down to Senegal, and there had been some very bitter fighting here. I took advantage of a ceasefire to overstack my single hex of frontage and not pay the price on Francis' turn, and the first turn of renewed action saw me force my way in. It took a couple of turns, but at the moment, Francis and I are staring at each other across the southern border of this region while I rest up. (See attached).
This is where my question comes in. For the first time ever, I saw a Panzer evapped by a pure airstrike. It was in reasonable shape (tired but well-equipped; sounds like a few girls I know... ;) ) and now it's dead. Ok, no problem. I've had far less fighting (overall) than a typical game, as the struggle has not been protracted, except agains the Brits. I only have ~60000+ HRS losses, so I would say that the Axis campaign has been going splendidly.
After a few turns, I still do not see my Panzer in the expected reinforcements box. A little investigating shows me why. Almost all of the panzers (that I currenlty have in service, at any rate) have PzIIIF's as the first equipment type. Overall, I have a massive tank surplus; in some cases enough to replace every tank in the field four or five times over. But as the production of the PzIIIF's stopped some 60 turns ago, I'm screwed, and will likely never see this unit again. That's no big deal in my specific case, as the Reich will not live or die based on this one unit, but I can see this being an issue in different games that flow a little more typically than this one has.
I have 16 full armored korps, and the main starting equipment type is the PzIIIF. To a lesser degree, a few units all start with Pz38Ts, but they have a higher production level, more turns of production, and I have almost 600 of them on hand, as compared to 31 PzIIIF's. Is this by design, Mark? Or is it possible to shuffle around some of the first equipment types so that this type of thing cannot happen?
Question.
In my game with Francis, he is perfecting the art of death-from-above on my Axis troops. As some of you may recall from previous threads, this is an Eastern Crusade game, and Russia and France were both dead prior to summer '41. (Can't recall exactly when, I didn't bring all the backup saves to work). The short of it is that the Axis fought fast and furious for the first 60 turns or so, but things have been quite slow for the Jerries as we sit back and patiently wait for an Overlord attempt. We're now on turn 152 (May 24, 1942).
What prompted me to post is this:
As mentioned above, the Axis really went at it early, but things have been quiet for pretty much the better part of two years. I have been spending the time taking over all the remaining Allied bastions that are catching my eye. (Switzerland, all of North Africa including advancing/repairing down that dreadful-terrain rail line that heads to Ethiopia, which means yes, I took that too... Also Madagascar, Greece (but not Yugo), Belgium joined me when Francis dropped a DoW on it; Turkey (Baku), etc.
Francis has been busy as well. He pulled off a brilliant raid on Algiers that forced a Vichy surrender, and landed at Casablanca at the same time, effectively screwing me. His advance on Tunis was valiantly fought off by the tiny forces I could assemble (hard to reinforce with only 1000 sea transport). Unfortuantely for the Allies, the successes were also the seeds of their undoing. The loss of Vichy prompted me to activate Spain, which gave me Gibraltar eventually, which raised the sea transport to 6000, which spelled the end of Allied Africa.
I've been advancing south down the crazy road that leads from western Africa down to Senegal, and there had been some very bitter fighting here. I took advantage of a ceasefire to overstack my single hex of frontage and not pay the price on Francis' turn, and the first turn of renewed action saw me force my way in. It took a couple of turns, but at the moment, Francis and I are staring at each other across the southern border of this region while I rest up. (See attached).
This is where my question comes in. For the first time ever, I saw a Panzer evapped by a pure airstrike. It was in reasonable shape (tired but well-equipped; sounds like a few girls I know... ;) ) and now it's dead. Ok, no problem. I've had far less fighting (overall) than a typical game, as the struggle has not been protracted, except agains the Brits. I only have ~60000+ HRS losses, so I would say that the Axis campaign has been going splendidly.
After a few turns, I still do not see my Panzer in the expected reinforcements box. A little investigating shows me why. Almost all of the panzers (that I currenlty have in service, at any rate) have PzIIIF's as the first equipment type. Overall, I have a massive tank surplus; in some cases enough to replace every tank in the field four or five times over. But as the production of the PzIIIF's stopped some 60 turns ago, I'm screwed, and will likely never see this unit again. That's no big deal in my specific case, as the Reich will not live or die based on this one unit, but I can see this being an issue in different games that flow a little more typically than this one has.
I have 16 full armored korps, and the main starting equipment type is the PzIIIF. To a lesser degree, a few units all start with Pz38Ts, but they have a higher production level, more turns of production, and I have almost 600 of them on hand, as compared to 31 PzIIIF's. Is this by design, Mark? Or is it possible to shuffle around some of the first equipment types so that this type of thing cannot happen?
If it isn't by design a possibility of fixing it could be to dive into BioEd.
Set up all the armoured Korps (and for that matter any other units that need it) up the way they would be, except add a piece of equipment (anything that isn't used in the scenario would do) with, say, 5 out of 5 of Equipment X. Go into BioEd and set this unit with crazy anti-infantry stats, save. Go back to the editor and put that piece of equipment at 5 out of 5, that equipment (providing you've made its anti-infantry stats high enough) will go to the top, so you'll have 5 out of 5 X Equipment. With that done, save your scenario and then go into BioEd and set the stats of that unit to all 1s. Then, you'll have 5 extra pieces of equipment that add basically nothing to the stats of your unit, and you have perpetually reconstituting units.
Of course, the drawback here is that that unit will always reconstitute
I think it would be better to break down the Pz formations into smaller chunks, and then have phased withdrawal and reinforcement events to swap out the old style units with newer style units. This will get around the 24 lines of equipment limit and the 1st line reconstitution issues that currently exist with trying to push an operational level game into the strategic.
Since I believe Mark is only doing work on this scenario now, in TOAW III, and it has plenty of events to spare for him to play around with, it shouldn't be too much a problem to set aside a hundred or so events to handle these kinds of equipment transitions for the major powers.
I think it would be better to break down the Pz formations into smaller chunks, and then have phased withdrawal and reinforcement events to swap out the old style units with newer style units. This will get around the 24 lines of equipment limit and the 1st line reconstitution issues that currently exist with trying to push an operational level game into the strategic.
Since I believe Mark is only doing work on this scenario now, in TOAW III, and it has plenty of events to spare for him to play around with, it shouldn't be too much a problem to set aside a hundred or so events to handle these kinds of equipment transitions for the major powers.
Yeah, but then you have the, say, the 1st Panzer division being pushed to the brink of collapse and having no equipment only to be replaced by the new 1st Panzer full of shiny new tanks. On the other hand, this could be more realistic, as this is what happened, anyways. A worn out division would be sent to refit, and come back a few weeks (months) later.
Perhaps these refits could be tied to TOs, so you could pick when you send the X Panzer Division off to be refit (within a certain time frame, so you aren't timing your ofensives based on when you are going to loose those units, rather timing when you refit those units around your offensives).
As well, should they be withdrawn and then replaced with empty shells, so that you wouldn't have to refit them in a pre-determined order (if they were being replaced by full divisions you would have to have the TOs staggered to prevent an unrealistic refit of every division with new tanks before production would have allowed this). If they were replaced by empty shells then you could refit them as you need, based on the available pool of the newest type of tank.
EDIT: Any way it is implemented would also prevent a Panzer Korps from ending up with 1000 tanks in its TO&E (because over time it didn't loose all its IIIFs, and also soaked up a number of newer tanks).
Mark Stevens
14 Mar 07, 20:37
The lines of equipment question is an issue, but given that the panzer corps have very high proficiencies, doesn't that mean that 80% - or whatever - of the Pz IIIFs should return to the Replacements Pool when they're destroyed and cause the corps to reform?
I don't recall any other players mentioning this as a problem in the past: even in games that have gone the distance and end in an Axis defeat the Germans still have some panzer units.
I'm very reluctant to try withdrawing the panzer corps - and surely it would apply to every other type of unit as well? - in order for them to 'refit'. When, where, why should a unit fighting in the eastern USSR suddenly disappear and pop up at full strength in Germany three months later?
I'd sooner continue the production of PzIIIFs throughout the whole game, even if it's unhistorical, if their absence really cripples the German armour, but it's odd that this hasn't come up before.
When, where, why should a unit fighting in the eastern USSR suddenly disappear and pop up at full strength in Germany three months later?
Hence having the withdrawals tied to TOs, and as James suggested break down the Korps (I guess into Divisions, and chrome wise it would be nice to have Panzer Divisions :)). :D
The lines of equipment question is an issue, but given that the panzer corps have very high proficiencies, doesn't that mean that 80% - or whatever - of the Pz IIIFs should return to the Replacements Pool when they're destroyed and cause the corps to reform?
No. This applies only to airframes and naval equipment.
I don't recall any other players mentioning this as a problem in the past: even in games that have gone the distance and end in an Axis defeat the Germans still have some panzer units.
I would suspect that the vast majority of EA games are resolved before then, as Axis victories in 41/42, and dropouts by one player or the other. In those games that do go the distance, the German player is probably more concerned with his infantry korps hobbling along with 100 squads per and evaporating everytime a stiff wind blows against them, due to the low HRS replacement rate. Then again, that's another windmill I tilted at in the past...;)
I'm very reluctant to try withdrawing the panzer corps - and surely it would apply to every other type of unit as well? - in order for them to 'refit'.
Indeed, it might well be argued that. However, as in most cases of 'fixing' things, the biggest problems should get the first attention, and the overwhelming number of 'little' things should be ignored. The Pareto Effect should influence scenario design, for the designer's own sanity, if for no other reason...:laugh:
When, where, why should a unit fighting in the eastern USSR suddenly disappear and pop up at full strength in Germany three months later?
Well...because it was German strategic doctrine to run a unit to the breaking point, and then withdraw it for rest, refit, and the absorption of new recruits who were then trained by the grizzled veterans.
I'd sooner continue the production of PzIIIFs throughout the whole game, even if it's unhistorical, if their absence really cripples the German armour, but it's odd that this hasn't come up before.
It's your choice, of course, and it's certainly a legitimate design workaround. Given the resources available in TOAW III, in my opinion, it's not necessarily the "best" fix for the particular and admittedly potential problem. However, it is a relatively easy and painless fix to make.
Hence having the withdrawals tied to TOs, and as James suggested break down the Korps (I guess into Divisions, and chrome wise it would be nice to have Panzer Divisions :)). :D
I wouldn't suggest going with divisions. It would adversely affect the gameplay of the scenario. They need to stay Korps-sized units for the benefit of mass and RBC capability.
The formations usually are about 8-12 units for each of the mobile groups. IMO, they should be broken into groups of no more than 4 Korps, and organized by historical first appearance. Then, duplicate the formations and units with a second set that has a later TO&E/OOB. Withdraw the smaller formations in their entirety, and make the second set appear as reinforcements triggered by the withdrawal event, some 6 turns later. You're probably only looking at adding a few (8 or 9) sets of event loops, less than a dozen formations and some two to three dozen duplicate units. Agreed, that it is substantially more work than simply perpetuating the PzKw III F (or whatever is line one) equipment production throughout the war, so I wouldn't hold it against Mark if he didn't do it. Like I said above, that would be a legitimate design compromise.
Thanks for the input guys. (I was pondering something along these lines as well; recalling Jeremy's panzer withdrawal in Fall Grau brought it to mind...)
First off, I'd say the solution proposed by James is certainly the most elegant, but if that will seriously eat 100 events, (or anything even remotely in that area), then I wouldn't go to the effort. The amount of work involved, combined with the fact that it's eating 20% of the new events for what is, admittedly, a flaw with a much easier workaround makes this unpalatable.
I would like to see new equipment panzers, and I have often wondered what would happen if units that have slots for late-war equipment have a soft game, and have all their slots full towards the end of the war... I've has the odd formation of Uber-Infantry, and the odd tank that has reached incredibly large proportions, but they're rather rare. If it wasn't for the events, I'd be all for this, but I'm sure a more productive use can be found for them. (I bet if we troll through the threads here, there are suggestions aplenty to eat another 1000 events...)
How about just mod some of those panzers to have a different first equipment type? Wyatt's idea would work, but I don't think we'd want every unit to always reconstitute. Games where you've taken a pounding on some of your equipment types, only to see a paper-tiger reconstitute and eat up a percentage of your now ultra-valuable replacements while never becoming strong enough to use in combat; well, let's say that type of thing really rodgers my hammerstein.
Sorry guys, not trying to be negative overall, I do agree that in a universe with unlimited events (and an independantly wealthy Mark with the inclination to continutally update this scenario until two weeks past my death (just to make sure...) this would be the most desireable fix. But I just don't see it being worth the effort if Mark can just go change a few units around, and solve the initial problem.
Mark Stevens
17 Mar 07, 07:31
I'm not sure that there is a real problem here. I'm playing the Axis in February 1944, been on the strategic defensive ever since 'Barbarossa' failed in 1941, there's been constant fighting on the Eastern Front since then, a couple of strong invasions of Western Europe, some activity in the Desert and an Allied landing in Greece.
I've still got four German panzer corps and seven panzer divisions on the map, with none queued as reconstitutions. These, with the Waffen SS and satellites' armour, and the motorised and panzergrenadier units, still constitute pretty powerful backing for the mainly infantry lines. They're not disintegrating every single turn.
Most of them are on the Eastern Front, where there're Soviet attacks every turn, so it's not as though they're resting quietly in southern France.
I'm sure that it's been a similar situation in the games I've played that have gone the distance. This doesn't seem unreasonable for Germany in 1944.
So, while I sort of agree that putting a particular tank model in the first row theoretically risks the loss of that model unrealistically crippling the entire panzer arm, has anyone actually seen it happen?
Yes. :laugh:
Ok, /smartass mode...
Well, it's not really that it's being witnessed all over the place in everyone's games. It's the point that in *any* game, regardless of how well the Axis do/don't do, this can happen. I could have a game with virtually no combat whatsoever, and half my panzers could disappear, never to return. Yes, this makes sense in your example above, Mark. But what about a game where the Axis steamrolls France in four turns, and never even goes to war with the Reds? (Odd, yes, but it is easy enough to arrange - perhaps the Axis try Sealion, and the Allied player wants to try and get the US in and not take the -20 to the USEV? Plausible).
Well, in the example I paint, the Axis could have almost no losses whatsoever (I've killed France for well under 10k HRSs before), and yet they could see fully half (or more!) of their panzers go poof! and never come back. It's not so much that I see this as something that is going to continually happen in every game, it's more that it is something that is potentially possible every game, and when it does happen, it is gamey to the extreme, and quite annoying.
Worth a fix if you basically have to rewrite the scenario? Hardly. Worth a fix if you just have to swap out the first equipment type of, say, 3 or 4 of these units? Most definately.
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